RE: Lords of the Ring: Type R v Trophy-R v Clubsport S
Discussion
ST66N said:
The Golf [R]... has the 4wd which is obviously more practical if you need something you have to be able to drive in the snow.
I'd like to think I'm preaching to the converted, but that 'obvious' is misplaced imho. 4wd gives a more secure behaviour on throttle in a curve in slippery conditions, but that is about it. It won't stop an inch sooner in snow, rather the opposite. For snow, the obvious choice should we winter tyres. Cheaper than 4wd, less fuel use, no real extra tyre cost when considering wear is spread over 8 tyres, etc. And you'll have much better braking, curve taking and traction.The above you are supposed to know already. Now the part you perhaps didn't know. A fwd lsd car as all three here is just as about good in traction on split friction surfaces (e.g. ice on one track only) as a Haldex car with the same tyres. This according to the manufacturer of the Haldex system on the R and the electronically controlled front lsd on the CS, BorgWarner. And on acceleration up a snow covered hill, the lsd equipped car is in between the same car with fwd and tc on for maximum help, and the 4wd haldex car. So a lsd gives a fwd real traction advantages in slippery conditions too, and with winter tyres there is no real necessity to go 4wd.
Onehp said:
ST66N said:
The Golf [R]... has the 4wd which is obviously more practical if you need something you have to be able to drive in the snow.
I'd like to think I'm preaching to the converted, but that 'obvious' is misplaced imho. 4wd gives a more secure behaviour on throttle in a curve in slippery conditions, but that is about it. It won't stop an inch sooner in snow, rather the opposite. For snow, the obvious choice should we winter tyres. Cheaper than 4wd, less fuel use, no real extra tyre cost when considering wear is spread over 8 tyres, etc. And you'll have much better braking, curve taking and traction.The above you are supposed to know already. Now the part you perhaps didn't know. A fwd lsd car as all three here is just as about good in traction on split friction surfaces (e.g. ice on one track only) as a Haldex car with the same tyres. This according to the manufacturer of the Haldex system on the R and the electronically controlled front lsd on the CS, BorgWarner. And on acceleration up a snow covered hill, the lsd equipped car is in between the same car with fwd and tc on for maximum help, and the 4wd haldex car. So a lsd gives a fwd real traction advantages in slippery conditions too, and with winter tyres there is no real necessity to go 4wd.
Onehp said:
I'd like to think I'm preaching to the converted, but that 'obvious' is misplaced imho. 4wd gives a more secure behaviour on throttle in a curve in slippery conditions, but that is about it. It won't stop an inch sooner in snow, rather the opposite. For snow, the obvious choice should we winter tyres. Cheaper than 4wd, less fuel use, no real extra tyre cost when considering wear is spread over 8 tyres, etc. And you'll have much better braking, curve taking and traction.
The above you are supposed to know already. Now the part you perhaps didn't know. A fwd lsd car as all three here is just as about good in traction on split friction surfaces (e.g. ice on one track only) as a Haldex car with the same tyres. This according to the manufacturer of the Haldex system on the R and the electronically controlled front lsd on the CS, BorgWarner. And on acceleration up a snow covered hill, the lsd equipped car is in between the same car with fwd and tc on for maximum help, and the 4wd haldex car. So a lsd gives a fwd real traction advantages in slippery conditions too, and with winter tyres there is no real necessity to go 4wd.
Trying so hard there chief.The above you are supposed to know already. Now the part you perhaps didn't know. A fwd lsd car as all three here is just as about good in traction on split friction surfaces (e.g. ice on one track only) as a Haldex car with the same tyres. This according to the manufacturer of the Haldex system on the R and the electronically controlled front lsd on the CS, BorgWarner. And on acceleration up a snow covered hill, the lsd equipped car is in between the same car with fwd and tc on for maximum help, and the 4wd haldex car. So a lsd gives a fwd real traction advantages in slippery conditions too, and with winter tyres there is no real necessity to go 4wd.
Julian Thompson said:
I seem to recall OneHP resides in Sweden, and therefore will likely have a good understanding of adverse weather conditions.
I’m keen to learn more about the comparison between haldex AWD and fwd with LSD, if you could elaborate a little?
i suspect it's good theory/logical but in reality it's tyres. empirical evidence - people in the alps drive mundane 2 wheel drive cars on roads. awd/4wd needed for off road.I’m keen to learn more about the comparison between haldex AWD and fwd with LSD, if you could elaborate a little?
Well I just bought a Megane RS275 Nav with the cup chassis and its an incredible thing. Its one of the very best, no doubt about it. All of the controls are perfectly judged and that makes it an absolute blast to drive.
Unlike the trophy r it also has air con, sat nav, climate control, leather etc.
And on the road the cup suspension and GKN limited slip diff are nothing short of incredible.
Unlike the trophy r it also has air con, sat nav, climate control, leather etc.
And on the road the cup suspension and GKN limited slip diff are nothing short of incredible.
macky17 said:
Housey said:
I am considering a Type R at the moment. It's a tough one as I am 51 so aesthetics are laughable but planning to use it as my daily run about to keep miles off my more special car. Having driven it I can see what all the fuss is about. It is exceptional, truly fantastic as an all round and relatively practical daily car that can put a smile on your face on the right roads. Makes the Golf R appear as a plan boring invisible nothing. Sure the Golf R is quicker in a straight line, looks better and is more discreet, but when it comes A to B in the most exciting way possible the Golf R is MILES off.
I agree with your last point but still believe the golf R would be a better daily. In 27 years of driving and some 50 cars it's the best daily I've ever had.Onehp said:
Enjoyed the article, this is why I like PH.
Somehting to be said for these cars to be a bit too much for real roads, I fairly sure I had more fun in my modified GT86, relatively light yet daily useable (more practical than a 911 as I like to say and more so than two the above cars), and with mods to get great steering feel, suspension (coilovers with hydraulic bumpstops and light wheels), fix the torque and sound issues making it a real characterful NA engine.
..
Had three Renaultsport Megans's and just sold for a lightly modified 86 for all the reasons you state above. Out of interest which coilovers did you use ..... trying to replicate the Ohlins on my Mégane is proving challenging !!!! Suspension control on the Renaultsport beggars belief ..Somehting to be said for these cars to be a bit too much for real roads, I fairly sure I had more fun in my modified GT86, relatively light yet daily useable (more practical than a 911 as I like to say and more so than two the above cars), and with mods to get great steering feel, suspension (coilovers with hydraulic bumpstops and light wheels), fix the torque and sound issues making it a real characterful NA engine.
..
So I continue on snow/winter topic, which can be off topic depending on your HH use. You have been warned.
In the right hands, 4wd is by far the most fun in winter. There.
But in terms of safety or simply not getting stuck in slippery conditions, which are the main arguments for 4wd, it ain't so simple. Obviously the best traction is 4wd and good winter tyres. And fast 0-60 times when weight transfer goes to the rear. If that is your interest, a HH Haldex car is a excellent choice. But when really pushing on, they are dynamically less intresting than a good fwd+lsd HH when it's not snowing.
For safety in snow/really slippery conditions, I'm indeed in 'safety first' Sweden and the recovery trucks can usually tell from how far they find the road cars off the road in the field, if it is a 4wd car or not. 4wd gets up to speed easier and are less likely to notice slippery surfaces, but don't brake any better than 2wd alternatives. They end up getting bigger mishaps. On top of that, my simple observation is that even in Sweden the 4wd crowd tend to skimp on proper winter tyres (from Golfs to top of the Range... Rover), buying cheaper ones or running all-seasons. 4wd = safer isn't really true. ESP, and better braking than traction does. Summer tyres in winter are actually safer seen to personal injury, but that's because people don't get anywhere at a meaningful speed, and it's good business for body repair shops...
Not getting stuck
Fwd cars have roughly 2/3 of their weight (slightly less) over the front wheels, and in poor traction situations weight transfer doesn't come into play. So with a good tc/lsd, they have roughly 2/3 of the traction of a 4wd. On uneven grip L/R, a 4wd car uses their brakes to redistribute torque to the grip side, a fwd+lsd equipped car doesn't need to use any braking and as such is about as good for traction there as most 4wd systems. A 4wd with lsd front and/or rear will be better again, but they are rare and aren't generally used for mundane daily use. Winter tyres remain the simplest solution whatever wheels are driven, a fwd+lsd equipped car is better than normal fwd and much better than rwd for traction. 4wd remains best IF on winter tyres, but they generally aren't a necessity at all to keep you going when there is snow. Winter tyres and some basic driving skills are much more helpfull...
Basically saying that the fwd+lsd formula works just fine for quite a few driving enthusiasts in Scandinavia, and while 4wd is popular esp for BMW and Audi and all the SUVs, there are plenty more that get by without 4wd even though there is snow 2-5 months of the year...
In the right hands, 4wd is by far the most fun in winter. There.
But in terms of safety or simply not getting stuck in slippery conditions, which are the main arguments for 4wd, it ain't so simple. Obviously the best traction is 4wd and good winter tyres. And fast 0-60 times when weight transfer goes to the rear. If that is your interest, a HH Haldex car is a excellent choice. But when really pushing on, they are dynamically less intresting than a good fwd+lsd HH when it's not snowing.
For safety in snow/really slippery conditions, I'm indeed in 'safety first' Sweden and the recovery trucks can usually tell from how far they find the road cars off the road in the field, if it is a 4wd car or not. 4wd gets up to speed easier and are less likely to notice slippery surfaces, but don't brake any better than 2wd alternatives. They end up getting bigger mishaps. On top of that, my simple observation is that even in Sweden the 4wd crowd tend to skimp on proper winter tyres (from Golfs to top of the Range... Rover), buying cheaper ones or running all-seasons. 4wd = safer isn't really true. ESP, and better braking than traction does. Summer tyres in winter are actually safer seen to personal injury, but that's because people don't get anywhere at a meaningful speed, and it's good business for body repair shops...
Not getting stuck
Fwd cars have roughly 2/3 of their weight (slightly less) over the front wheels, and in poor traction situations weight transfer doesn't come into play. So with a good tc/lsd, they have roughly 2/3 of the traction of a 4wd. On uneven grip L/R, a 4wd car uses their brakes to redistribute torque to the grip side, a fwd+lsd equipped car doesn't need to use any braking and as such is about as good for traction there as most 4wd systems. A 4wd with lsd front and/or rear will be better again, but they are rare and aren't generally used for mundane daily use. Winter tyres remain the simplest solution whatever wheels are driven, a fwd+lsd equipped car is better than normal fwd and much better than rwd for traction. 4wd remains best IF on winter tyres, but they generally aren't a necessity at all to keep you going when there is snow. Winter tyres and some basic driving skills are much more helpfull...
Basically saying that the fwd+lsd formula works just fine for quite a few driving enthusiasts in Scandinavia, and while 4wd is popular esp for BMW and Audi and all the SUVs, there are plenty more that get by without 4wd even though there is snow 2-5 months of the year...
Edited by Onehp on Monday 27th August 06:56
Simon Owen said:
Had three Renaultsport Megans's and just sold for a lightly modified 86 for all the reasons you state above. Out of interest which coilovers did you use ..... trying to replicate the Ohlins on my Mégane is proving challenging !!!! Suspension control on the Renaultsport beggars belief ..
The simple answer is, get Öhlins for the GT86, they are available and I'm told they are great there too. But dear. I had these: http://www.gt86ownersclub.co.uk/forum/24-chassis-w... which worked a lot better for me than the stock set up (MY2013). Ask the forum and you may get offered a ride on them... BlackPrince said:
unsprung said:
each of these cars is impressive technically, but I'm not sure about soul / character
and youre being "not sure" about soul/character is based on what exactly?adjectives chosen by the author say so
conversely, those chosen for the other two cars are rather on the ascetic or Prussian side of things
Onehp said:
A fwd lsd car as all three here is just as about good in traction on split friction surfaces (e.g. ice on one track only) as a Haldex car with the same tyres. This according to the manufacturer of the Haldex system on the R and the electronically controlled front lsd on the CS, BorgWarner. And on acceleration up a snow covered hill, the lsd equipped car is in between the same car with fwd and tc on for maximum help, and the 4wd haldex car. So a lsd gives a fwd real traction advantages in slippery conditions too, and with winter tyres there is no real necessity to go 4wd.
Surely this depends on the type of LSD in the front wheel drive car? It's my understanding that most torsen-type diffs acts as an open diff if one wheel has zero tractionDerek Chevalier said:
Surely this depends on the type of LSD in the front wheel drive car? It's my understanding that most torsen-type diffs acts as an open diff if one wheel has zero traction
Correct, didn't want to complicate the whole further in the initial post. Traction control can with a single or few brake inpulses make a Torsen diff lock though so it usually isn't a big problem, because electronic controlled systems can have some more delay in reacting also than a pure mechanical system. So in the big picture things even out more or less... Julian Thompson said:
Thanks for explaining - definitely time to get suitable tyres organised for my van this next winter in case we get snow again!
Winters are better in winter regardless of the presence of snow. Particularly in standing water. Far more sure footed at motorways speeds in heavy downpours - even in the summer. In fact I run winter tyres on my daily bus all year round. Not suitable for a performance car during the fairer months though 
Kenny Powers said:
Winters are better in winter regardless of the presence of snow. Particularly in standing water. Far more sure footed at motorways speeds in heavy downpours - even in the summer. In fact I run winter tyres on my daily bus all year round. Not suitable for a performance car during the fairer months though
Arent braking distances increased when you have the wrong rubber on? Summers during the winter and winters during the summer?DoubleD said:
Arent braking distances increased when you have the wrong rubber on? Summers during the winter and winters during the summer?
true, but i'd rather be on winters in summer than summers below 5deg. especially when the former is an suv driven calmly and the latter is more sporty.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff