RE: Lords of the Ring: Type R v Trophy-R v Clubsport S

[Baldchap]

It is recommended that you use winters all year round rather than summers, because summers are terrible in winter but winters are adequate in summer. Anything below 7 degrees is supposedly the magic number for winters to have the advantage, however I'm sure it actually varies between tyres.

Either way, most people haven't a bloody clue in snow regardless of what tyres are fitted and whether the car is front, rear or four wheel drive.

[Kenny Powers]

DoubleD said:

Arent braking distances increased when you have the wrong rubber on? Summers during the winter and winters during the summer?

Possibly, but how many people seek out ultimate braking performance when they buy any new tyre? My daily is hardly a performance car so I’m happy with the compromise. I have the right rubber for wet and cold conditions without the need to swap over, and they’re perfectly good in the summer, if a little soft.

By the way, my powerful RWD summer toy is equipped with Cup 2, so I know the difference between and a good tyre and a bad one

Edited by Kenny Powers on Monday 27th August 13:08

[nickfrog]

ST66N said:

Trying so hard there chief.

He is quite right though. 4wd doesn't add any lateral grip nor shortens braking distances. It just adds traction. But if there is no friction, it adds nothing, by definition, it can't find adhesion where it doesn't exist in the first place. And that's where winter tyres come in by adding friction at the contact patch, both longitudinally and laterally.

So step 1 in snow is winters and step 2 is more wheels driven to give marginal extra traction but step 2 implies all the downsides, which you carry on board all year round. It still August though.

[macky17]

Housey said:

macky17 said:

Housey said:

I am considering a Type R at the moment. It's a tough one as I am 51 so aesthetics are laughable but planning to use it as my daily run about to keep miles off my more special car. Having driven it I can see what all the fuss is about. It is exceptional, truly fantastic as an all round and relatively practical daily car that can put a smile on your face on the right roads. Makes the Golf R appear as a plan boring invisible nothing. Sure the Golf R is quicker in a straight line, looks better and is more discreet, but when it comes A to B in the most exciting way possible the Golf R is MILES off.

I agree with your last point but still believe the golf R would be a better daily. In 27 years of driving and some 50 cars it's the best daily I've ever had.

Go drive one if you haven't, the car rides better than the Golf R, it's damping is exceptional. It depends what you want from a car really, in 34 years of driving Ive not found a jack of all trades.

Sounds great. Yes, I plan to have a go asap.

[DoubleD]

Kenny Powers said:

DoubleD said:

Arent braking distances increased when you have the wrong rubber on? Summers during the winter and winters during the summer?

Possibly, but how many people seek out ultimate braking performance when they buy any new tyre? My daily is hardly a performance car so I’m happy with the compromise. I have the right rubber for wet and cold conditions without the need to swap over, and they’re perfectly good in the summer, if a little soft.

By the way, my powerful RWD summer toy is equipped with Cup 2, so I know the difference between and a good tyre and a bad one

Edited by Kenny Powers on Monday 27th August 13:08

Most dont, but braking is the most important part that a tyre can do. Also it doesnt matter what type of car it is, they can all suddenly need to stop from time to time regardless of how gently they are driven.

[Kenny Powers]

For sure it’s one of the most important factors. Another being aquaplaning resistance. But I’m not looking for an argument. I agree it’s a compromise but for me it’s a measured one that I’m happy with

[VeeFource]

Kenny Powers said:

Winters are better in winter regardless of the presence of snow. Particularly in standing water. Far more sure footed at motorways speeds in heavy downpours - even in the summer. In fact I run winter tyres on my daily bus all year round. Not suitable for a performance car during the fairer months though

I researched into this and it turned out summer tyres are better than winters in pretty much every condition other than snow when the temperature is above a couple of degrees Celsius above zero. So given the risk of black ice below this temperature I came to the conclusion it wasn't worth maximising the grip for better handling for the few times I actually drive in that weather anyway (I cycle to to work year round).

[Kenny Powers]

Based on my own experiences I disagree but each to their own. I’ve been using summer and winter tyres for donkeys years and have always found winters to be better in all conditions during the winter months.

[CABC]

VeeFource said:

I researched into this and it turned out summer tyres are better than winters in pretty much every condition other than snow when the temperature is above a couple of degrees Celsius above zero. .

do you have the evidence to hand?
the whole question is a piece of string though as the best summers will be the worst in winter whereas a premium summer touring tyre will indeed be a good all rounder, no doubt. For winters you also need the best otherwise you just get some snow covering ability for a few 000 miles until they harden or wear out. I live in snowland for 3+ months a year. one thing i do know is that for snow and ice you need the best tyre, cheap or old ones don't cut it.
Not sure how we got here on a hot hatch thread in August...

[DoubleD]

Good point. Lets leave winter tyres for one of the endless winter threads.

Lets talk about these 3 great hot hatches.

[GibsonSG]

DoubleD said:

Good point. Lets leave winter tyres for one of the endless winter threads.

Lets talk about these 3 great hot hatches.

Good call

[ST66N]

nickfrog said:

He is quite right though. 4wd doesn't add any lateral grip nor shortens braking distances. It just adds traction. But if there is no friction, it adds nothing, by definition, it can't find adhesion where it doesn't exist in the first place. And that's where winter tyres come in by adding friction at the contact patch, both longitudinally and laterally.

So step 1 in snow is winters and step 2 is more wheels driven to give marginal extra traction but step 2 implies all the downsides, which you carry on board all year round. It still August though.

The original point was that it’s less hassle running a Golf R than a Civic Type R in winter. This was based on two of us living in the same road over the course of an actual winter and running these two actual cars on the stock rubber.

Everything took a strange turn from there.

[Kenny Powers]

DoubleD said:

Good point. Lets leave winter tyres for one of the endless winter threads.

Lets talk about these 3 great hot hatches.

Agreed

I think we got here via 4WD and traction. The evolution of discussion eh?

I’d still take the Honda, but decent 20” winter tyres won’t be cheap...

[DoubleD]

Kenny Powers said:

DoubleD said:

Good point. Lets leave winter tyres for one of the endless winter threads.

Lets talk about these 3 great hot hatches.

Agreed

I think we got here via 4WD and traction. The evolution of discussion eh?

I’d still take the Honda, but decent 20” winter tyres won’t be cheap...

I would happily take any. The Honda looks to be the most practical of the 3 if thats what you need. The Renault looks to be the hard work nutter. Its a wonderful time if you are in the market for a hot hatch.

[GibsonSG]

[/quote]

Its a wonderful time if you are in the market for a hot hatch.

[/quote]

It is, but it’s so hard to let them off the leash nowadays. I’m old enough to recall the pre-speed camera and heavy clampdowns era and it felt so different. I went for a blast on the Route Napoleon early on Saturday morning and got busted between Castellane and Grasse on my way back. Avoided a fine (or possibly worse) by the skin of my teeth. The track seems to be the only place to enjoy their towering performance with impunity.

Anyway, despite owning the house trained version of the Renault I’d love to try the Civic - it sounds like a brilliant daily car.

[Niffty951]

Great read and fair conlusion. The Civic may be utterly hideous inside and out but it is the deserved winner. As mentioned in the comments above a great hot hatch is about having a car with two characters. It must be capable of everything your Golf tdi could do in terms of practicality/comfort AND put a smile on your face no less than a TVR when the moment takes you.

The Megan and the clubsport, amazing as I'm certain they are, have somehow lost their way in persuit of perfection in my book. If I want a compromised sports car to chase lap times and the last 10th in driving pleasure I would not be buying a FWD hatchback? (Tell me I'm wrong)

Edited by Niffty951 on Monday 27th August 20:35

[DoubleD]

Niffty951 said:

The Megan and the clubsport, amazing as I'm certain they are, have somehow lost their way in persuit of perfection in my book. If I want a compromised sports car to chase lap times and the last 10th in driving pleasure I would not be buying a FWD hatchback? (Tell me I'm wrong)

Edited by Niffty951 on Monday 27th August 20:35

I can sort of understand what you are getting at. But what would you get instead?

[Onehp]

For the performance available, they are 'cheap' to buy, own and run. And for the pace and space/size, relatively lightweight. Quite a few of the HH regulars at the Nordschleife actually have some other nice kit at home, GT3's, a Corvette etc. all ready for the track too, but they still choose to also run a Megane or another HH with track mods on the ring...

For the road, even though my current Hot Estate is pretty focused all things considered, it can't match the feeling of a proper sports car, not even to a humble GT86... even though I know a few Porsche owners that went back to the twins because they felt more involved...
If you can live with strict two seats and almost no luggage space, the new ND MX-5 is a little gem and with the new 2.0 will have plenty pace to extract and sometimes even thrill... Higher budget I'm a fan of the A110, hope to drive one next 1-2 months when they start selling here... All of them perfectly liveable and enjoyable as a daily, if the space is enough.
And on the used market there is of course more to find...
As you can see I value a light car, a very well sorted and usable one...

Edited by Onehp on Monday 27th August 21:41

[renmure]

Housey said:

macky17 said:

Housey said:

I am considering a Type R at the moment. It's a tough one as I am 51 so aesthetics are laughable but planning to use it as my daily run about to keep miles off my more special car. Having driven it I can see what all the fuss is about. It is exceptional, truly fantastic as an all round and relatively practical daily car that can put a smile on your face on the right roads. Makes the Golf R appear as a plan boring invisible nothing. Sure the Golf R is quicker in a straight line, looks better and is more discreet, but when it comes A to B in the most exciting way possible the Golf R is MILES off.

I agree with your last point but still believe the golf R would be a better daily. In 27 years of driving and some 50 cars it's the best daily I've ever had.

Go drive one if you haven't, the car rides better than the Golf R, it's damping is exceptional. It depends what you want from a car really, in 34 years of driving Ive not found a jack of all trades.

The Type R really is exceptional. I didn't get mine to be a daily driver or even be a jack of all trades. I just wanted something the looked a bit special and drove a bit special to make some of the mundane journeys that I might have done in something else feel a bit more special. I could foresee no occasions when I would have driven it in Comfort Mode and thought I would be "on it" all the time. I was actually a bit disappointed initially that the car defaults to Sport rather than Plus-R mode on start up.

As it happens the split for me is probably 50/50 in miles between Comfort and Sporty modes. It's almost like having 2 cars in one and as long as you can live with the OTT looks (I love them) then there really aren't many downsides.

[CABC]

Onehp said:

For the performance available, they are 'cheap' to buy, own and run. And for the pace and space/size, relatively lightweight. Quite a few of the HH regulars at the Nordschleife actually have some other nice kit at home, GT3's, a Corvette etc. all ready for the track too, but they still choose to also run a Megane or another HH with track mods on the ring...

For the road, even though my current Hot Estate is pretty focused all things considered, it can't match the feeling of a proper sports car, not even to a humble GT86... even though I know a few Porsche owners that went back to the twins because they felt more involved...
If you can live with strict two seats and almost no luggage space, the new ND MX-5 is a little gem and with the new 2.0 will have plenty pace to extract and sometimes even thrill... Higher budget I'm a fan of the A110, hope to drive one next 1-2 months when they start selling here... All of them perfectly liveable and enjoyable as a daily, if the space is enough.
And on the used market there is of course more to find...
As you can see I value a light car, a very well sorted and usable one...

Edited by Onehp on Monday 27th August 21:41

totally this. weight is so important to real feel at road speeds.
fix the weak engine characteristics of an 86 or 5 and they're so much more rewarding than anything else under 60k. (except Lotus/Caterham/Ariel). There's plenty of kit and expertise for these cars. It's a shame there isn't the same depth available for lighter hatches like the older Swifts etc. Just a little more oomph in a 1000kg Swift, say 175, and it would be a great hh.