RE: Ferrari launches 488 Pista Spider
Discussion
Mr Whippy said:
360CS any day of the week for me, or the Scud.
But 720bhp turbo rwd? Hmmmm. Lag lag lag... just what you want with 700bhp+ on road tyres in the uk!
Lag???? I’d be amazed if you could notice any! Happy to be proven wrong but after many NA cars and modern day turbocharged cars, lag simply isn’t an issue these days.But 720bhp turbo rwd? Hmmmm. Lag lag lag... just what you want with 700bhp+ on road tyres in the uk!
topboss said:
Mr Whippy said:
360CS any day of the week for me, or the Scud.
But 720bhp turbo rwd? Hmmmm. Lag lag lag... just what you want with 700bhp+ on road tyres in the uk!
Lag???? I’d be amazed if you could notice any! Happy to be proven wrong but after many NA cars and modern day turbocharged cars, lag simply isn’t an issue these days.But 720bhp turbo rwd? Hmmmm. Lag lag lag... just what you want with 700bhp+ on road tyres in the uk!
It's basically a good NA engine with long equal length seperated runners with the accompanying throttle response, and at the end of those, some relatively low boost, low lag twin scroll turbos that make the most of each individual, wel seperated exhaust pulse. Yes there is some lag from the turbos if you go look for it for sure*, but the lag isn't a problem in actual driving like the old days...
(*) Mind I haven't driven it either, only a 458, I kinda trust a few journalists on this, still...
Journalists and manufacturers have been saying ‘almost no lag’ for the last 25 years on ‘modern’ turbos.
And every car they say is now almost lag free, when you go try it, is still noticeably laggy.
Tapering the boost over rpms so it feels NA still leaves a huge dynamic gap at high rpm (180bhp/litre is boosty!)
Also I’d imagine it makes for a bit of an inconsistent driving experience.
And every car they say is now almost lag free, when you go try it, is still noticeably laggy.
Tapering the boost over rpms so it feels NA still leaves a huge dynamic gap at high rpm (180bhp/litre is boosty!)
Also I’d imagine it makes for a bit of an inconsistent driving experience.
Mr Whippy said:
Journalists and manufacturers have been saying ‘almost no lag’ for the last 25 years on ‘modern’ turbos.
And every car they say is now almost lag free, when you go try it, is still noticeably laggy.
Tapering the boost over rpms so it feels NA still leaves a huge dynamic gap at high rpm (180bhp/litre is boosty!)
Also I’d imagine it makes for a bit of an inconsistent driving experience.
If you say so. Inconsistent driving experience? The whole point of Ferrari tweaking the torque curve was to do exactly the opposite of that. There was also a figure released from Journos a while back on the Pista about the time taken from Full throttle to max power, it was ridiculously quick, less than 1 10th of a second if I remember, so if you think that leads to an inconsistent experience then you must be superhuman!And every car they say is now almost lag free, when you go try it, is still noticeably laggy.
Tapering the boost over rpms so it feels NA still leaves a huge dynamic gap at high rpm (180bhp/litre is boosty!)
Also I’d imagine it makes for a bit of an inconsistent driving experience.
Still, you must be right.
Fetchez la vache said:
E65Ross said:
Still, you must be right.
I'm sure he is too. I have a shonky old 2007 alhambra tdi I use as a dog waggon, and the lag in 2nd is huge. I'm sure the Pista hasn't moved things on in 11 years in a multi million car...Similar engine, but McLaren went for a zero lag implementation.
LaFerrari went big NA with emotor for instant torque all over rpm range.
But all along they had just not done what, exactly, to make a turbo now suddenly work really well with no lag?
E65Ross said:
If you say so. Inconsistent driving experience? The whole point of Ferrari tweaking the torque curve was to do exactly the opposite of that. There was also a figure released from Journos a while back on the Pista about the time taken from Full throttle to max power, it was ridiculously quick, less than 1 10th of a second if I remember, so if you think that leads to an inconsistent experience then you must be superhuman!
Still, you must be right.
Full throttle to full power?Still, you must be right.
Which gear? It looks like each gear is torque shaped, and boost requests are smoother over rpm.
So foot flat at 3000rpm onwards has a different peak power than 2000rpm foot flat ‘passing’ peak power at 3000rpm.
It’s ‘tuned’ to not feel laggy. It’s tuned to be peaky.
All good things. I’ve tuned cars for such outputs as it’s purer and better. Great.
But it’s still laggy. Physics didn’t get re-written by refining turbo technology.
At 7000rpm, zero throttle, then foot flat, show me throttle request vs accelerative g force.
If it’s under 100th of a second I’d be very very surprised.
My bet is they tested at 3000rpm in 3rd where torque is limited and the engine is mostly running as NA any way.
Mr Whippy said:
E65Ross said:
If you say so. Inconsistent driving experience? The whole point of Ferrari tweaking the torque curve was to do exactly the opposite of that. There was also a figure released from Journos a while back on the Pista about the time taken from Full throttle to max power, it was ridiculously quick, less than 1 10th of a second if I remember, so if you think that leads to an inconsistent experience then you must be superhuman!
Still, you must be right.
Full throttle to full power?Still, you must be right.
Which gear? It looks like each gear is torque shaped, and boost requests are smoother over rpm.
So foot flat at 3000rpm onwards has a different peak power than 2000rpm foot flat ‘passing’ peak power at 3000rpm.
It’s ‘tuned’ to not feel laggy. It’s tuned to be peaky.
All good things. I’ve tuned cars for such outputs as it’s purer and better. Great.
But it’s still laggy. Physics didn’t get re-written by refining turbo technology.
At 7000rpm, zero throttle, then foot flat, show me throttle request vs accelerative g force.
If it’s under 100th of a second I’d be very very surprised.
My bet is they tested at 3000rpm in 3rd where torque is limited and the engine is mostly running as NA any way.
Mr Whippy said:
So why did McLaren bother with torque in-fill with the P1?
Similar engine, but McLaren went for a zero lag implementation.
LaFerrari went big NA with emotor for instant torque all over rpm range.
But all along they had just not done what, exactly, to make a turbo now suddenly work really well with no lag?
Happy to be corrected but didn't McLaren make a conscious decision for the P1 to make use of the electrical power so that they didn't have to implement sequential type turbos that responded quickly low down and could have larger turbos for the engine for maximum output at higher revs?Similar engine, but McLaren went for a zero lag implementation.
LaFerrari went big NA with emotor for instant torque all over rpm range.
But all along they had just not done what, exactly, to make a turbo now suddenly work really well with no lag?
Mr Whippy said:
Full throttle to full power?
Which gear? It looks like each gear is torque shaped, and boost requests are smoother over rpm.
So foot flat at 3000rpm onwards has a different peak power than 2000rpm foot flat ‘passing’ peak power at 3000rpm.
It’s ‘tuned’ to not feel laggy. It’s tuned to be peaky.
All good things. I’ve tuned cars for such outputs as it’s purer and better. Great.
But it’s still laggy. Physics didn’t get re-written by refining turbo technology.
At 7000rpm, zero throttle, then foot flat, show me throttle request vs accelerative g force.
If it’s under 100th of a second I’d be very very surprised.
My bet is they tested at 3000rpm in 3rd where torque is limited and the engine is mostly running as NA any way.
If you go looking for it like that, you will find your lag. I enjoy it too, that instant response from a proper NA engine. It is a joy by itself, electric connection as they say (in the future to be more literal), especially when coming out of a turboed car. At the same time, the lag present in the best turbo applications are no longer disturbing for the driver experience as such, a proper driver knows that on corner exit, you roll on the throttle as you unwind the helm, smoothly riding the circle of grip. Than 1/10 or even 2/10ths lag is OK, but it's not like before where depending on rpm, you could be waiting for seconds. Lag or terrible boost treshold, call it what you want, the point is that it that the varying throttle response due to the engine being forced induction, demanded a totally different driving style of old. Modern turboed cars don't suffer this. With the Ferrari it has an additional NA trait, it likes to rev. Maybe not like the best Ferrari NA engines, but far better than more mundane turbos where the best has passed once you go beyond 5000rpm...Which gear? It looks like each gear is torque shaped, and boost requests are smoother over rpm.
So foot flat at 3000rpm onwards has a different peak power than 2000rpm foot flat ‘passing’ peak power at 3000rpm.
It’s ‘tuned’ to not feel laggy. It’s tuned to be peaky.
All good things. I’ve tuned cars for such outputs as it’s purer and better. Great.
But it’s still laggy. Physics didn’t get re-written by refining turbo technology.
At 7000rpm, zero throttle, then foot flat, show me throttle request vs accelerative g force.
If it’s under 100th of a second I’d be very very surprised.
My bet is they tested at 3000rpm in 3rd where torque is limited and the engine is mostly running as NA any way.
Now my turboed HH is tuned for response and revving out, and basically I drive it like an NA, when pressing on in both I keep it above 3k rpm because the NA is faint in torque and the turbo lag becomes noticeable below respectively, and love to rev out both. So the end result is fairly similar. Of course it's ok to prefer the character of an NA, but I don't agree that a turboed engine is by definition must be detrimental to the driver experience... I do prefer NA for drifting, it's much more delicate on the throttle, but that doesn't stop most drift cars from being FI...
Mr Whippy said:
Best drivers car on sale?
Where can you really drive it?
On track then a proper track car will be infinitely nicer to ‘drive’
On the road, surely huge wide cars with more power than you can use is getting a bit old?
Mk1/2/3 gt3, 360CS and Scud at least you could give a full stab in first few gears in the dry etc, use the power/revs, small to enjoy on twisty fun roads as ‘fast road’ cars.
Those new GT3s are so big the only uk roads you could really use the grunt on are roads where it’d be boring using the grunt imo.
360CS any day of the week for me, or the Scud.
But 720bhp turbo rwd? Hmmmm. Lag lag lag... just what you want with 700bhp+ on road tyres in the uk!
I have not driven a Pista, but I’ve driven a couple of 488s, GTB and Spider. They are probably not entirely different. My overriding impression from the two 488s was the extremely minimal turbo lag, it is almost unnoticeable. Ferrari really have their act together in this regard.Where can you really drive it?
On track then a proper track car will be infinitely nicer to ‘drive’
On the road, surely huge wide cars with more power than you can use is getting a bit old?
Mk1/2/3 gt3, 360CS and Scud at least you could give a full stab in first few gears in the dry etc, use the power/revs, small to enjoy on twisty fun roads as ‘fast road’ cars.
Those new GT3s are so big the only uk roads you could really use the grunt on are roads where it’d be boring using the grunt imo.
360CS any day of the week for me, or the Scud.
But 720bhp turbo rwd? Hmmmm. Lag lag lag... just what you want with 700bhp+ on road tyres in the uk!
Mr Whippy said:
On the road, surely huge wide cars with more power than you can use is getting a bit old?
Mk1/2/3 gt3, 360CS and Scud at least you could give a full stab in first few gears in the dry etc, use the power/revs, small to enjoy on twisty fun roads as ‘fast road’ cars.
Those new GT3s are so big the only uk roads you could really use the grunt on are roads where it’d be boring using the grunt imo.
Incorrect.Mk1/2/3 gt3, 360CS and Scud at least you could give a full stab in first few gears in the dry etc, use the power/revs, small to enjoy on twisty fun roads as ‘fast road’ cars.
Those new GT3s are so big the only uk roads you could really use the grunt on are roads where it’d be boring using the grunt imo.
991.2 GT3 width 1978mm including mirrors.
360 width 1980mm including mirrors.
The 360CS is even wider still.
nyxster said:
ntiz said:
???
Only bought by speculators/driven slowly round Knightsbridge.
Seems to be the standard response for anything exotic.
I have decided however that I really need to make more money!!!!!
Not everyone, I fully intend to drive mine like I stole it.Only bought by speculators/driven slowly round Knightsbridge.
Seems to be the standard response for anything exotic.
I have decided however that I really need to make more money!!!!!
myhandle said:
I have not driven a Pista, but I’ve driven a couple of 488s, GTB and Spider. They are probably not entirely different. My overriding impression from the two 488s was the extremely minimal turbo lag, it is almost unnoticeable. Ferrari really have their act together in this regard.
Modern turbocharging is/can be tuned so as to make eradicate lag and make a car drive like a high-revving NA lump, but with additional flexibility lower down. Alas, when opponents haven't driven them, and only rely on their hate-fuelled imagination to base their arguments on, you end up having an intelligent debate with unarmed opponents.
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