RE: Porsche 911 (997) Carrera S: Spotted

[J4CKO]

blade7 said:

Thornaby said:

My mate has one of these. 05 reg, Carrera S with 85k on it. Does a fair few trips to the garage in it like. always seems to be a gasket or valve needing to be replaced. But its a 13 year old sports car. things will start to perish

I've got a 27 year old 944 turbo, had it 10 years. The only thing that's failed in my ownership is a fuel pressure regulator. Hartech did the head gasket about 15 years ago. Apart from that it's been routine servicing and tyres. Mechanically it's way better built than a 996.

You have been very, very lucky then.

Mine was a right pain in the arse, and the PO had already spent thousands on it, but it was a very old car.

[anonymous-user]

Cold said:

LordHaveMurci said:

How long do AM clutches last?

No idea. Mine's on 50k miles - I'll let you know when it goes if you like?

But is a consumable part really comparable with engine rebuilds?

Mines on 38k and never changed; arguably aren't clutches life limited (consumable) part in a way that an engine is not? I would place them alongside pads, discs, tyres, etc; albeit hopefully at longer internals.

eta; poor spelling

Edited by Lord.Vader on Thursday 30th August 12:39

[Yacht Broker]

I have an early 997 and i bought it specifically because it had just had a full rebuild.

the car is now on around 67k and goes like a steam train. i was given a 2yr warranty on the rebuild (new liners, new pistons and so on).

just make sure you use Millers Nanodrive 10w50 rather than Mobil 0w-40 and you should be fine (Porsche's blanket recommendation of Mobil 0w-40 for all cars and all ages makes no allowances for worn valvetrains of higher mileage engines). I've also started using Millers for the gearbox oil. It's marginally more expensive than liquid gold, but if it keeps my engine and gearbox in good fettle, it's worth it.

i was loosely thinking of changing, but really can't justify it as it's just so practical (I have roof bars and a ski box for it) The Bentley Continental GT would bankrupt me in maintenance and fuel and the Maserati GT is still depreciating heavily (along with the potential of chucking up big maintenance bills). The 997 (aside from the cost of an engine rebuild), is surprisingly inexpensive to maintain. I have carried out full suspension refreshes, replaced engine mounts, brakes etc etc and none of the bills were particularly scary.

i can even get 30mpg if i drive really carefully on a long trip (always run on Shell V-Power).

great cars..... no regrets.

[D.no]

I'd argue that the majority of people (not everyone) that don't "get" 911's have never driven one, or lived with one for any amount of time. It's a real shame that potential engine issues will prevent many from taking the plunge into ownership, because the 997 really is fantastic, and is currently a bit of a bargain, even after factoring-in a rebuild slush-fund. I covered 45k miles in my gen1 and during the 4 years that took, had to replace the coil packs, and a pair of front dampers.

The feel, tactility, and overall driving experience never get old. The unique character imbued by the drivetrain and it's layout, feels right, and is exploitable, but getting the best from it is an earned experience. There's just the right amount of modernity, without any dilution of the analogue. They're a snapshot of a time that we may well look back on as being the real sweet spot of driver's cars. There's currently nothing, at any price, I'd rather have (except a Singer) so I'll keep mine until I'm physically unable to get into it, and along the way I'll fix whatever it takes to keep the journey alive....

[blade7]

J4CKO said:

blade7 said:

Thornaby said:

My mate has one of these. 05 reg, Carrera S with 85k on it. Does a fair few trips to the garage in it like. always seems to be a gasket or valve needing to be replaced. But its a 13 year old sports car. things will start to perish

I've got a 27 year old 944 turbo, had it 10 years. The only thing that's failed in my ownership is a fuel pressure regulator. Hartech did the head gasket about 15 years ago. Apart from that it's been routine servicing and tyres. Mechanically it's way better built than a 996.

You have been very, very lucky then.

Mine was a right pain in the arse, and the PO had already spent thousands on it, but it was a very old car.

Maybe, but I bought well. My view is Porsche changed from engineers to accountants after the 993 and 968. Pre 996/Boxster a properly looked after Porsche should do 150-200k no problem. I expect there's 996's that have done the same, but no one is surprised if a 996 cylinder goes oval or a chunk breaks off.

[unpc]

J4CKO said:

Out of interest, does anyone know what an engine rebuild costs on other cars of comparable performance ?

Ten grand seems like a lot of money but is that because its a Porsche, or thats just what a full engine rebuild costs ?

It costs 100 grand when it was new will have some bearing (the only bearing still left...) but its only a six cylinder engine, a 370Z has a six cylinder engine with a near enough comparable power output, if you break one of those is that ten grand to rebuild ? or is that a case of they dont really break so it isnt an issue and if you do its £1500 for one from a breaker and about £800 to get it fitted.

I suppose with 911s having these issues, S/H engines are rare and an unknown quantity anyway.

Is it because they are not as straightforward to rebuild as other engines or parts are more expensive ?

Just seems a hell of a lot of money.

Not the same thing but a 435bhp V8Coyote crate engine for my Mustang is about £5.5k and that's brand new with 2 yr warranty.

[Cold]

Yacht Broker said:

I have an early 997 and i bought it specifically because it had just had a full rebuild.

the car is now on around 67k and goes like a steam train. i was given a 2yr warranty on the rebuild (new liners, new pistons and so on).

just make sure you use Millers Nanodrive 10w50 rather than Mobil 0w-40 and you should be fine (Porsche's blanket recommendation of Mobil 0w-40 for all cars and all ages makes no allowances for worn valvetrains of higher mileage engines). I've also started using Millers for the gearbox oil. It's marginally more expensive than liquid gold, but if it keeps my engine and gearbox in good fettle, it's worth it.

i was loosely thinking of changing, but really can't justify it as it's just so practical (I have roof bars and a ski box for it) The Bentley Continental GT would bankrupt me in maintenance and fuel and the Maserati GT is still depreciating heavily (along with the potential of chucking up big maintenance bills). The 997 (aside from the cost of an engine rebuild), is surprisingly inexpensive to maintain. I have carried out full suspension refreshes, replaced engine mounts, brakes etc etc and none of the bills were particularly scary.

i can even get 30mpg if i drive really carefully on a long trip (always run on Shell V-Power).

great cars..... no regrets.

So apart from needing a complete engine rebuild and a thorough overhaul of every other component at around 60k miles it's been faultless?
Difficult to argue with that logic!


Mind you, let's not forget that it wasn't that long ago that Porsche issued a "Do not drive in case the engine catastrophically explodes in a fireball" directive to all owners of their flagship model, yet such inept engineering still didn't effect sales. So it's reasonable to suggest that there is a lot of blinkered fanboism about the brand.

[Ahonen]

Oilchange said:

If I owned one that threw up a huge engine rebuild bill, I'd contemplate putting some sort of LS in instead. I wouldn't be living with Porsches reputation for self destructing on every journey...

A massive part of the enjoyment of 911 ownership is the sound of the flat six on full song. I enjoy the sound of a V8 as much as the next man, but I wouldn't want my 911 to sound like a Corvette. Plus, once the conversion has been done to fit the LS, would it really work out much cheaper than rebuilding the proper engine? We used to buy crate LS7s for around £5k about 10-12 years ago, but I imagine they've gone up a bit since then - plus bellhousing adaptor, bespoke engine mounts and various other bits and bobs.

[jakesmith]

Cold said:

Yacht Broker said:

I have an early 997 and i bought it specifically because it had just had a full rebuild.

the car is now on around 67k and goes like a steam train. i was given a 2yr warranty on the rebuild (new liners, new pistons and so on).

just make sure you use Millers Nanodrive 10w50 rather than Mobil 0w-40 and you should be fine (Porsche's blanket recommendation of Mobil 0w-40 for all cars and all ages makes no allowances for worn valvetrains of higher mileage engines). I've also started using Millers for the gearbox oil. It's marginally more expensive than liquid gold, but if it keeps my engine and gearbox in good fettle, it's worth it.

i was loosely thinking of changing, but really can't justify it as it's just so practical (I have roof bars and a ski box for it) The Bentley Continental GT would bankrupt me in maintenance and fuel and the Maserati GT is still depreciating heavily (along with the potential of chucking up big maintenance bills). The 997 (aside from the cost of an engine rebuild), is surprisingly inexpensive to maintain. I have carried out full suspension refreshes, replaced engine mounts, brakes etc etc and none of the bills were particularly scary.

i can even get 30mpg if i drive really carefully on a long trip (always run on Shell V-Power).

great cars..... no regrets.

So apart from needing a complete engine rebuild and a thorough overhaul of every other component at around 60k miles it's been faultless?
Difficult to argue with that logic!


Mind you, let's not forget that it wasn't that long ago that Porsche issued a "Do not drive in case the engine catastrophically explodes in a fireball" directive to all owners of their flagship model, yet such inept engineering still didn't effect sales. So it's reasonable to suggest that there is a lot of blinkered fanboism about the brand.

I have a Maserati GT as well and having added up all the service invoices from new can say that it is on a par with the 987 Boxster I also run that is only a couple years older

I wouldn’t let the fear of a big bill put you off a gt if you drive a 997 as I said earlier the 997 cost me more in the time I owned it

The GT whilst a completely different car, is a far more special ownership proposition, it looks and sounds truely exotic

[Kettmark]

jakesmith said:

I have a Maserati GT as well and having added up all the service invoices from new can say that it is on a par with the 987 Boxster I also run that is only a couple years older

I wouldn’t let the fear of a big bill put you off a gt if you drive a 997 as I said earlier the 997 cost me more in the time I owned it

The GT whilst a completely different car, is a far more special ownership proposition, it looks and sounds truely exotic

I have a Maserati gt & a 997 c2s. Both great cars, admittedly the maser was nearly double the price of the 997 but the gt feels so special every time you get in it. Completely different cars despite people comparing one to the other.
I want to trade up to a 997 turbo but it won't be for the maser.

[cleevej]

I bought an 05 plate a few years back, had it for close to 4 years, did many trips to our place in France, down to Spain a few times, shunted through rush hr Paris traffic, up to the Lakes, Peak District etc etc. Had no issues at all. Chap that bought it from me had a scope on bores when he purchased, all was well. If you treat them right they are great great cars, I miss it!.

[Fittster]

Wills2 said:

Just pay the premium for a Gen2 car it has completely new engine without the IMS.

Because I'm too lazy to look myself, roughly what would you expect to pay for a Gen2 997?

[jakesmith]

cleevej said:

I bought an 05 plate a few years back, had it for close to 4 years, did many trips to our place in France, down to Spain a few times, shunted through rush hr Paris traffic, up to the Lakes, Peak District etc etc. Had no issues at all. Chap that bought it from me had a scope on bores when he purchased, all was well. If you treat them right they are great great cars, I miss it!.

Not everyone is so lucky and it isn't necessarily down to how you treat the car whether the engine dies from what I can make out from years spent on here

[anonymous-user]

Kettmark said:

jakesmith said:

I have a Maserati GT as well and having added up all the service invoices from new can say that it is on a par with the 987 Boxster I also run that is only a couple years older

I wouldn’t let the fear of a big bill put you off a gt if you drive a 997 as I said earlier the 997 cost me more in the time I owned it

The GT whilst a completely different car, is a far more special ownership proposition, it looks and sounds truely exotic

I have a Maserati gt & a 997 c2s. Both great cars, admittedly the maser was nearly double the price of the 997 but the gt feels so special every time you get in it. Completely different cars despite people comparing one to the other.
I want to trade up to a 997 turbo but it won't be for the maser.

Another Maserati owner here, simply fantastic.

[Bladedancer]

unpc][... said:

something that people often claim to be a paragon of reliability.

I have a suspicion that this claim is due to ADAC-and-alike reliability lists, which often had Porsche at the top.
Thing is, those lists are made using a very specific set of data. They usually use lists of faults discovered during TUV, so German MOT. It would have to be quite the coincidence for a terminal engine failure to happen during the test and other that it actually transpiring, there's no way for TUV/MOT/Service to pick up this fault. Well unless you rolled up to TUV with engine clearly in its death throes.
This sort of data is useful for establishing general reliability, especially around bodywork, suspension and electrics, but not internals of the engine or gearbox.

UK style warranty direct ones aren't that brilliant either, cause the statistics sample is limited to cars who had that warranty and made a claim.

Edited by Bladedancer on Friday 31st August 10:29

[Roundm]

Fittster said:

Because I'm too lazy to look myself, roughly what would you expect to pay for a Gen2 997?

about a Hartech engine rebuild more than a Gen1

and before anyone says 'Gen 2 is so much better', the engines still wear (and are coming in for rebuilds now), PCM3 whilst an improvement is still dated, PCM2.1 (from the Gen1) was developed in 2003 (i.e. 4 years BEFORE the first IPHONE was released! - it's not surprising Bluetooth wasn't included, it didn't exist in a form for playing music - why does anyone complain about this). Other than that - the interior is black not grey (can of paint - or dip it in carbon film). Not sure there is much more different really.

[Roundm]

Lord.Vader said:

Cold said:

LordHaveMurci said:

How long do AM clutches last?

No idea. Mine's on 50k miles - I'll let you know when it goes if you like?

But is a consumable part really comparable with engine rebuilds?

Mines on 38k and never changed; arguably aren't clutches life limited (consumable) part in a way that an engine is not? I would place them alongside pads, discs, tyres, etc; albeit hopefully at longer internals.

eta; poor spelling

Edited by Lord.Vader on Thursday 30th August 12:39

yes but if you are comparing running costs - then something that will definitely go (clutch on Maser/AM sequential shift, cam belts on a Fezza or Lambo) some of which can cost more than an engine build, should be included in the comparison.

e.g. what's the lifetime cost over a distance of say 100k miles ?, 2 clutches and a cam belt for an AM sequential shift auto (or the Maser equivalent, or an M3 etc) vs (if you are unlucky) an engine rebuild and 20k mile services and around 30mpg on a run. If they are cars that compete for our money, then surely the comparison is valid?

having said that - I run a 997.1 C2S as my daily (around 14k miles/year at present) as I think the costs/risks/depreciation justifiable, for a weekend toy I might choose something different (older GT3, Morgan 3 wheeler, 996/7 turbo or something)

BTW - ran a diesel Merc for 120k miles in 4 years, spent 10k in maintenance and warranty and lost 18k in value, put 40k in 2 years on a 987S (from 80 to 120k), put tires and oil in that and lost 4k in depreciation, have a 997.1S and have put 14k in 1 year on that (52 to 66k miles), suspect it's not depreciated much at all and I've put oil and brakes and tyres on that - and I'm still enjoying it. If the engine goes it goes and I'll rebuild it - c'est la vie

Edited by Roundm on Friday 31st August 11:48

[sennasurgeon]

Truly awful cars.
Owned one
Not that fast unless you rev the nuts off it.
Terrible gearbox, heavy clutch, cheap interior soft plastics on the Centre Console. Leather made of tissue paper. Old technology when it was new. The Bose stereo is rubbish. The steering wheel buttons don’t do much. No blue tooth.
Crank shaft oil leaks, bore scoring, RMS problems

Porsche at its worst. Cost cutting and VAG parts bin sharing.

Just my opinion but 986/996/987/997 are poor quality cars relying on a previous reputation held up by the air cooled era cars.

[LordHaveMurci]

sennasurgeon said:

Truly awful cars.
Owned one
Not that fast unless you rev the nuts off it.
Terrible gearbox, heavy clutch, cheap interior soft plastics on the Centre Console. Leather made of tissue paper. Old technology when it was new. The Bose stereo is rubbish. The steering wheel buttons don’t do much. No blue tooth.
Crank shaft oil leaks, bore scoring, RMS problems

Porsche at its worst. Cost cutting and VAG parts bin sharing.

Just my opinion but 986/996/987/997 are poor quality cars relying on a previous reputation held up by the air cooled era cars.

What do you drive now?

[The Surveyor]

Fittster said:

LordHaveMurci said:

Virtually every performance car has it's foibles, the M96/97 issues are overblown albeit they do actually exist & Porsche could perhaps have handled it better.

Which sub-100K sports car (e.g. Audi R8 or GTR) has had as big an issue as the 996/997?

A thread about unreliable 6 cylinder sub-£100k sports cars which have a reputation for engine rebuilds and nobody has mentioned TVR....

Pistonheads is really changing.

The cost of that half-rebuild on the flat six lump makes a full rebuild on the fabulous Speed 6 look like a bargain IMHO.