RE: BMW announces X2 M35i
Discussion
bearman68 said:
BMW's are cheap looking flashy things with poor engineering,
... cheap looking... : matter of taste, don't agree, even though not a big fan.... flashy... : agree, like almost everthing today, if not they are called out to be boring, hard to please the public.
..poor engineering... : *Ouch*. Well, unless you went through the whole car's engineering design, know the design, perfrormance and cost objectives, and then can enlighten us all of how they should have done it properly, perhaps this is a bit unnecessary. Understood, you don't like them and won't buy. No immediate plans here either. But I still respect the engineering, and as I wrote before, I suspect that this will be a very well executed car, for what it is...
bearman68 said:
Yet despite this, they seem to be selling more than ever.........
.......Surely it can't end well??
RE your first point I've quoted....this just goes to show that BMW etc know the market and how to make money better than you do. RE the 2nd part I've quoted....possibly not, but again, I'd wager BMW probably know better than yourself. Unless you run a more successful car company than them?.......Surely it can't end well??
bearman68 said:
they seem to be selling more than ever - you can't move for BM.........Surely it can't end well??
Yep. I just can't imagine how catastrophically bad it will end up being for BMW if they continue to sell more cars than ever. I don't personally think there is anything that offensive with the styling, I'd probably go as far as saying that I prefer out the competition - not that that is saying a great deal. I certainly wouldn't be having the red interior though.
For the most part I can't imagine that any folks looking to buy this type of thing will give two monkeys about the history of BMW's engines or the fact that this doesn't have six cylinders. They certainly won't care that (for the most part) it is going to be front wheel drive either.
BFleming said:
I don't think this is meant to be an M-car, more of a nomenclature for the top end cars of BMW's particular range. I don't consider the M140i (for example) an M-car either, for what it's worth.
On the subject of M-cars, is there any true M car left? They're all built on the same production line as their lesser (3 cylinder) brethren these days, literally churned out rather than hand crafted. Fine cars no doubt, but as special as they once were?
Perhaps not as special as they were, but there is still a lot of affection for the E39 and E46's out there, which were mass produced. Hell even the E60 (running costs and reliability ignored) gets a lot of love. On the subject of M-cars, is there any true M car left? They're all built on the same production line as their lesser (3 cylinder) brethren these days, literally churned out rather than hand crafted. Fine cars no doubt, but as special as they once were?
I think the M2 counts as a true M car. Manual, straight 6, LSD and proper handbrake. Only cons are it's a bit heavy for its size, and the turbos mean the need to rev it out isn't as high Although I am biased here, I'm waiting on my M2 Comp to be delivered!
bearman68 said:
I can't help feeling the big 3 are losing the plot. It used to be that BMW made very good cars, excellent handling, and lovely engines with subdued and classy interiors that were a masterpiece in simplicity.
I really don't know what's happened. BMW's are cheap looking flashy things with poor engineering, and a ethos that seems to shout loudly about nothing. And this car is the worst. FWD tosh (and I haven't driven one, and I hope I never will).
Yet despite this, they seem to be selling more than ever - you can't move for BM, Merc or VAG. Surely they are funding their current sales with the reputation of yesterday, and sooner or later this has to bite them in the arse.
I've had various BM's over the years, and I'm quite a fan of the older models, but I'm never ever going to buy one from the last 10 years, nor one of the current crop. I'd have a Hyundai in preference.
Surely it can't end well??
Another "wasnt it great in the past, wasnt everything rosy, its all sI really don't know what's happened. BMW's are cheap looking flashy things with poor engineering, and a ethos that seems to shout loudly about nothing. And this car is the worst. FWD tosh (and I haven't driven one, and I hope I never will).
Yet despite this, they seem to be selling more than ever - you can't move for BM, Merc or VAG. Surely they are funding their current sales with the reputation of yesterday, and sooner or later this has to bite them in the arse.
I've had various BM's over the years, and I'm quite a fan of the older models, but I'm never ever going to buy one from the last 10 years, nor one of the current crop. I'd have a Hyundai in preference.
Surely it can't end well??
t now and getting worse" post.They are selling well, so they must be, more or less making what people want to buy, why would that end badly, they seem to be doing very well despite not still making 635 CSI's and E46 M3 CSL's.
Like all the manufacturers, they market sell to those who want to buy a new one, not those that are really enthusiastic about what they made 20 or 30 years ago.
I bet this is actually not all that bad to drive, probably pretty pleasant, fairly quick and a useful size for carrying people and stuff, it will do its job very well.
I would love to know what you drive if the thought of driving this offends you so much ? I can drive my mother in laws X1 diesel and not be offended, its actually pretty good, very effective just not exactly excitement personified but it suits her needs very well.
E65Ross said:
RE your first point I've quoted....this just goes to show that BMW etc know the market and how to make money better than you do. RE the 2nd part I've quoted....possibly not, but again, I'd wager BMW probably know better than yourself. Unless you run a more successful car company than them?
Don't you think it's possible that they are trading on a brand reputation that is very strong, while the current cars are pretty tosh? Yes, they probably know what they're doing, they are probably raking money in, and good luck to them. But I get an uneasy feeling that it's a marketing strategy that ends in brand dilution. 30 or 40 years to build a brand, much quicker to damage it.
Contrast that to (say) Toyota - I know most PH's are not keen on them, but no-one would doubt their engineering credibility,either on cars built 20 years ago, or cars built now. The modern crop of Toyotas appear to be as well engineered as ever.
I dunno, I'm just disappointed to see the under engineered rubbish that they seem to be putting out. (Think N47 engine for example)
Onehp said:
..poor engineering... : *Ouch*. Well, unless you went through the whole car's engineering design, know the design, perfrormance and cost objectives, and then can enlighten us all of how they should have done it properly, perhaps this is a bit unnecessary. Understood, you don't like them and won't buy. No immediate plans here either. But I still respect the engineering, and as I wrote before, I suspect that this will be a very well executed car, for what it is...
I suspect it will be a very poorly engineered car away from the touchy feely plastics. I'm not trying to be "look how wonderful it was years ago". Some things are much better now. But a single timing chain is not better than a double one, And ingested swirl flaps can never be part of the plan surely? And looking at a car with 150k miles and 5 years old and thinking that it's at the end of it's life can't be brand building surely? Look at why Merc are such a strong brand - their stuff used to be tougher than the Sahara - now it's difficult to make it last more than 3 years in a Surrey suburb. 
I am a grumpy old bugger though, I'll give you that. ......and I like classy and understated rather than shouty. The Germans used to be so good at elegant simplicity.I do like this... 
In my defence, it's because I have a fondness for small SUV type cars with a petrol engine and actual 4WD rather than just 2WD. This being because I have a dog and a tiny city car at the moment, and bending down to put my dog on the back seat because the . boot is too small is giving me issues with my back (and I'm only 20!).
A small SUV with actual 4WD and some poke sounds like it'd be right up my street! (Now how do I manage to do the type of creative accounting that means I'll be able to afford to run and insure one of these at 20 on a student income?)
In my defence, it's because I have a fondness for small SUV type cars with a petrol engine and actual 4WD rather than just 2WD. This being because I have a dog and a tiny city car at the moment, and bending down to put my dog on the back seat because the . boot is too small is giving me issues with my back (and I'm only 20!).
A small SUV with actual 4WD and some poke sounds like it'd be right up my street! (Now how do I manage to do the type of creative accounting that means I'll be able to afford to run and insure one of these at 20 on a student income?)
I suspect that it will actually be a very well engineered car, like almost all modern cars, as it needs to meet so much legislation and still be what people want to buy. Swirl flaps and timing chains are not new phenomena, they were issues going back to what I suspect where the glory days in most people's minds.
Truth is, I don't like the concept of this. It is form over function and a set of compromises that doesn't fit with my needs / wants. But it will be objectively very good, I can't really argue with that.
Truth is, I don't like the concept of this. It is form over function and a set of compromises that doesn't fit with my needs / wants. But it will be objectively very good, I can't really argue with that.
bearman68 said:
E65Ross said:
RE your first point I've quoted....this just goes to show that BMW etc know the market and how to make money better than you do. RE the 2nd part I've quoted....possibly not, but again, I'd wager BMW probably know better than yourself. Unless you run a more successful car company than them?
Don't you think it's possible that they are trading on a brand reputation that is very strong, while the current cars are pretty tosh? Hayek said:
treeroy said:
When did BMW become so boring? All their cars are the same, they're pushing more FWD, and their cars all seem very dull.
Just the same regurgitated trash isn't it. If we've got to have 4 cylinder engines can't they at least try to be interesting and give us a boxer/flat layout or something. Mercedes now way more desirable to me, was the other way round 10+ years ago.Merc have fallen by the wayside just as much as BMW, in chasing the volume shopping car market, just one that fitted with a 'designer' brand badge to impress easily impressed people.
bearman68 said:
I suspect it will be a very poorly engineered car away from the touchy feely plastics. I'm not trying to be "look how wonderful it was years ago". Some things are much better now.
Cars are massively benchmarked. Companies like A2Mac1 have made all car makers know exactly what each other do with extreme granularity. BMWs are neither over nor under engineered. They are just engineered enough to compete and they're all so close as a result. I think they know precisely what they're doing with their image/brand/ethos/reputation but if you know better than them you ought to call them as I am sure they'll pay you good money for guiding them.Let's not forget that the tosh they currently make includes cars with decently low COG, even better PMOI courtesy of longitudinal engines placed well behind the front axle, RWD, LSDs, manual box, inline 6 engines that still have good top ends and sounds, Brembo 4-pots on most cars either std or optional. What I have found is that all that engineering has actually been at the detriment of soft plastics and carpets thickness etc which have fallen slightly behind the competition. Which suits me fine but is at odds with your observations.
E65Ross said:
binnerboy said:
<rant>
god I hate this particular segment, SUVs are bad enough but sport activity coupe, sport activity coupe my arse
</rant>
Still struggling to understand why there is so much absolute hatred towards a certain type of car. Do people get this much irrational hatred to other inanimate objects? Do you hate certain types of watches that annoy you this much? What about certain clothes? What about garden fences?god I hate this particular segment, SUVs are bad enough but sport activity coupe, sport activity coupe my arse
</rant>
If you don't like it, fine....but there's so much hatred i really struggle to understand why. If you don't like it, don't buy it (this isn't just a dig at you binnerboy, just everyone who seems to get somewhat wound up by SUVs in general).
Escort Si-130 said:
Another one for the PCP finance crew.
I am always suspicious of any post that includes people being grouped by "Crew", "Horde" or "Brigade".Anyone who gets a new car will fund it one of two ways, i.e. buys it with their own funds or some kind of finance vehicle.
The implication is that those people are wrong in how they finance the vehicle and also, if they buy this particular model, they are wrong in the choice they have made.
How do they get through life having made these woefully deluded choices, or maybe they are perfectly normal, functioning adults that make a decision and manage just fine and enjoy their X2 M whatsit ?
What vehicle do you drive and how did you fund it, it must be the correct answer, which of course it is, for you ! thats the key thing, different things work for different people.
nickfrog said:
It's entirely possible to like more than one thing. I can totally imagine someone liking and tracking late 60s sports cars and also liking a SUV to transport the family.
absolutely , variety is the spice, if everyone thought the same these forums would be very boring. I don't claim to be right or correct, it is just my opinion, not a statement of fact.Will be interesting to see what it drives like, as the article points out this gives strong clues to the M140i successor next year.
To be fair the performance sounds good for what it is. The 4.9s 0-60 time is the same as my old 2013 M135i managed, so this is doing well considering it's a bigger and slightly less powerful car.
Although it will clearly be lacking the soundtrack of a 6-cylinder, perhaps the extra fuel economy will make up for some of that. Definitely has potential and in 3rd generation 1-series form could be a serious threat to the Golf R...
To be fair the performance sounds good for what it is. The 4.9s 0-60 time is the same as my old 2013 M135i managed, so this is doing well considering it's a bigger and slightly less powerful car.
Although it will clearly be lacking the soundtrack of a 6-cylinder, perhaps the extra fuel economy will make up for some of that. Definitely has potential and in 3rd generation 1-series form could be a serious threat to the Golf R...
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