RE: Porsche Carrera RS: Time for coffee
Discussion
That very eloquently summed up many of my own feelings. The 964 RS was never the car for me but I respect it as one of the last true works of Porsche.
I'm not one to only hark back at the history books. I see the 918 as one of the greatest cars Porsche has ever made and like the 959 it is a leader into the new generation of what Porsche could be to come, but when you have an empire like Porsche has today and require such big turnover to sustain. It is hard to allow the kind of small passionate teams to develop cars.
I believe the secret to a truly great car will always be a small, experienced and passionate team. Porsche have made morw than their fair share of those but I'm not sure how many more they will make.
I'm not one to only hark back at the history books. I see the 918 as one of the greatest cars Porsche has ever made and like the 959 it is a leader into the new generation of what Porsche could be to come, but when you have an empire like Porsche has today and require such big turnover to sustain. It is hard to allow the kind of small passionate teams to develop cars.
I believe the secret to a truly great car will always be a small, experienced and passionate team. Porsche have made morw than their fair share of those but I'm not sure how many more they will make.
Edited by Niffty951 on Wednesday 12th September 20:34
Niffty951 said:
That very eloquently summed up many of my own feelings. The 964 RS was never the car for me but I respect it as one of the last true works of Porsche.
I'm not one to only hark back at the history books. I see the 918 as one of the greatest cars Porsche has ever made and like the 959 it is a leader into the new generation of what Porsche could be to come, but when you have an empire like Porsche has today and the require such big turnover to sustain. It is hard to allow the kind of small passionate teams to develop cars.
I believe the secret to a truly great car will always be a small, experienced and passionate team. Porsche have made morw than their fair share of those but I'm not sure how many more they will make.
No way, the 996 generation of GT3 more than meet the brief and for me personally, the 997 GT3 is an absolute work of art.I'm not one to only hark back at the history books. I see the 918 as one of the greatest cars Porsche has ever made and like the 959 it is a leader into the new generation of what Porsche could be to come, but when you have an empire like Porsche has today and the require such big turnover to sustain. It is hard to allow the kind of small passionate teams to develop cars.
I believe the secret to a truly great car will always be a small, experienced and passionate team. Porsche have made morw than their fair share of those but I'm not sure how many more they will make.
I think (as I've not driven one yet) that the 991 GT3 touring could be up there with them and, if it is, the rest of the 991 range can't exactly be far behind!
I speak as an air-cooled ex-owner and mega fan.
Tuvra said:
I think these look far more appealing in "boring" colours like silver and black:-
Do you now ...
No accounting for taste eh ? And I'd say you may be rather missing the point of having an early 90's RS Porsche too
037 said:
Why do some have lights on the front bumper and some have scoops like the red one?
I’ll dig out a pic of a friends in the mint green colour
They were fitted as standard to the 964 3.8 RS, they were subsequently copied and became almost de rigueur for the less discerning RS owners (sorry Francis) I’ll dig out a pic of a friends in the mint green colour
adzpz said:
Nice looking but having driven one it wouldn't be for me. Poor seating position was a deal breaker.
Slippydiff said:
Absolutely disgraceful Francis 
(hope you're well ?)
(hope you're well ?) tim milne said:
Talking of regrets...
I've owned two. The first I bought in 1998 for £18K (when C2 964s were about £25K) and the second, which had been back to the factory for upgrade to Cup spec, I sold in 2003 for £22K.
I've had four ... https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...I've owned two. The first I bought in 1998 for £18K (when C2 964s were about £25K) and the second, which had been back to the factory for upgrade to Cup spec, I sold in 2003 for £22K.
The first back in 2001-2, a Midnight Blue example that cost me the princely sum of £23k ...
Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 12th September 22:41
lestiq said:
Absolutely, they were much simpler machines back then, I'd love to see a modern interpretation of this car that isn't £100k+, simple, pure (but with 20 years of safety knowledge added). Doesn't need a flash interior, doesn't need 15 driver modes, doesn't need active dampers, simple passive setup. Saved £25k off of list already. What else could we live without so that we can enjoy such a machine? Maybe it doesn't need 15 pot calipers with 400mm carbon cermaic discs and 22" wheels if the car weighs less? It can be great on the road and fun on track, (does it really need to be a GT3 car with number plates??) Does it now need 500BHP? Would 350-400 suffice, would that mean it would be more engaging on the road as you can enjoy accelerating in more than one gear??
A base spec Cayman, on the smallest wheels plus a shorter final drive diff and some DIY weight removal... and you’re maybe getting close?Plate spinner said:
lestiq said:
Absolutely, they were much simpler machines back then, I'd love to see a modern interpretation of this car that isn't £100k+, simple, pure (but with 20 years of safety knowledge added). Doesn't need a flash interior, doesn't need 15 driver modes, doesn't need active dampers, simple passive setup. Saved £25k off of list already. What else could we live without so that we can enjoy such a machine? Maybe it doesn't need 15 pot calipers with 400mm carbon cermaic discs and 22" wheels if the car weighs less? It can be great on the road and fun on track, (does it really need to be a GT3 car with number plates??) Does it now need 500BHP? Would 350-400 suffice, would that mean it would be more engaging on the road as you can enjoy accelerating in more than one gear??
A base spec Cayman, on the smallest wheels plus a shorter final drive diff and some DIY weight removal... and you’re maybe getting close?
A 987 Cayman (indeed any Cayman) requires no weight management to maximise it’s handling potential. The 964 (especially in RS form) does.
But the Cayman is also far too “polished”.
I genuinely wish I could take the credit for these fine words, but I can't, that credit must go to another PH'er :
"To me, as an averagely talented road car driver it's that very 'analogue', unfiltered feedback from the controls that gives me the warm glow of satisfaction that comes with handling something so obviously mechanical, a machine rather than a slick consumer product.
Like all the nuances in the soundtrack of a truly great engine and the way you can almost feel the cogs separating and engaging in a good manual shift gearbox, all the tiny movements of the steering wheel in your hands, telegraphing what's going on between tyres and road surface beyond a simple message of 'grip/no grip' that enrichen and enliven the experience.
It's why classics and some low-volume specials can get under ones skin so much more easily than arguably vastly superior machinery.
It doesn't make me any faster. It doesn't make me any more confident (given the constraints of road driving, either is probably A Good Thing). But it does make me happier.
I wrote these words some years ago, hopefully they convey a bit of what driving a 964 RS feels like :
Slippydiff said:
0-60 ? Quite frankly if that's your benchmark for what makes a car great (or not great) you most likely won't get the RS.
Overly stiff ride ? Grow a f*ckin pair (it's an urban myth, so get one with decent, modern tyres (ie not ten year old Michelin MXX's) fresh dampers, sensible geo settings and ride heights, and you'll find it an absolute blast for A & B road hooning.
Build a rep on the cheap ? yep, if course it can be done, but it's the little things that make these cars so much more than the sum of their parts. Take the ali bonnet for example, lift it up ('cause there's no gas struts to help you) prop it up using the ali strut (who's end goes into a specially formed nut that doubles up as the securing nut for the strut top mount).
Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R and feel how, as a sop to the RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original. It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.
Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.
Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.
Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.
Try again, but being too timid, you stall it thus time ......
Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your franky pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.
Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.
Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......
From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances within the transmission that sound more akin to a coffee grinder. But keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.
At 6,800 rpm in third the game's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.
A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.
Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.
It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as modern race seats.
On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.
And when you've had your hit, you won’t feel the need to race all the way home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.
Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out. When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :
Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear.
And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise......
Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care........
Overly stiff ride ? Grow a f*ckin pair (it's an urban myth, so get one with decent, modern tyres (ie not ten year old Michelin MXX's) fresh dampers, sensible geo settings and ride heights, and you'll find it an absolute blast for A & B road hooning.
Build a rep on the cheap ? yep, if course it can be done, but it's the little things that make these cars so much more than the sum of their parts. Take the ali bonnet for example, lift it up ('cause there's no gas struts to help you) prop it up using the ali strut (who's end goes into a specially formed nut that doubles up as the securing nut for the strut top mount).
Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R and feel how, as a sop to the RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original. It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.
Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.
Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.
Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.
Try again, but being too timid, you stall it thus time ......
Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your franky pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.
Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.
Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......
From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances within the transmission that sound more akin to a coffee grinder. But keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.
At 6,800 rpm in third the game's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.
A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.
Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.
It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as modern race seats.
On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.
And when you've had your hit, you won’t feel the need to race all the way home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.
Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out. When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :
Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear.
And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise......
Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care........
Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 12th September 23:52
Can remember back in 2001 when we were looking for our first real sports car.
Was contemplating a 964 RS after reading Evo magazine but after my wife discounted an E30 M3 and Integrale I thought that I would be pushing it if I suggested a 964 RS. How much do I regret that now !!!!!
Ended up with a S1 Elise 111S which I suppose is not too much of a hardship.
We did manage to scratch the 964 itch but once the Boxster Spyder came it was time to get rid of "James":
Must admit, that sometimes I do feel that the itch needs to scratched again with a 964 C2 but prices have gone stratepheric since we sole James.
George
Was contemplating a 964 RS after reading Evo magazine but after my wife discounted an E30 M3 and Integrale I thought that I would be pushing it if I suggested a 964 RS. How much do I regret that now !!!!!
Ended up with a S1 Elise 111S which I suppose is not too much of a hardship.
We did manage to scratch the 964 itch but once the Boxster Spyder came it was time to get rid of "James":
Must admit, that sometimes I do feel that the itch needs to scratched again with a 964 C2 but prices have gone stratepheric since we sole James.
George
Maldini35 said:
tim milne said:
Talking of regrets...
I've owned two. The first I bought in 1998 for £18K (when C2 964s were about £25K) and the second, which had been back to the factory for upgrade to Cup spec, I sold in 2003 for £22K.
arrrgghhh I feel your painI've owned two. The first I bought in 1998 for £18K (when C2 964s were about £25K) and the second, which had been back to the factory for upgrade to Cup spec, I sold in 2003 for £22K.
Perhaps we should set up a support group for ex 964 owners
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