JLR on 3 day week
Discussion
fatboy b said:
I agree that f-type aside, Jaguar have a dismal offering currently. That said, BMW also stopped making good looking cars a good 10+ years ago.
Agree on BMW! They’ve lost their way completely. For instance their 2-Series Active Tourer is just plain nasty. The rot started with the X6 for me. Mercedes learnt a lot of lessons from being the whipping boy for so many years. But they’ve successfully re-invented their range, and for many has become a first choice when before things like the M3 or M5 were preeminent. The AMG engines just entice so many buyers just for the “...joy of driving...”. Oh wait that’s BMWs tagline isn’t it... 
tigerkoi said:
Agree on BMW! They’ve lost their way completely. For instance their 2-Series Active Tourer is just plain nasty.
... just entice so many buyers just for the “...joy of driving...”. Oh wait that’s BMWs tagline isn’t it...
You CANNOT be serious. Tell me you're joking. Or a troll. LOL... just entice so many buyers just for the “...joy of driving...”. Oh wait that’s BMWs tagline isn’t it...
BMW are the real drivers' cars, honed for performance and handling perfection. In fact, they're renowned for being the ultimate in driving machines and if you're in a BM you just know you've got respect from other road users, drivers and pedestrians.
The 2-series AT (Active Tourer) adds a sense of Range Rover-like style and 4x4 looks and, for most people, creates a similar image.
You are absolutely right about the joy of driving though, that's why I'm in a BM.
tigerkoi said:
fatboy b said:
I agree that f-type aside, Jaguar have a dismal offering currently. That said, BMW also stopped making good looking cars a good 10+ years ago.
Agree on BMW! They’ve lost their way completely. For instance their 2-Series Active Tourer is just plain nasty. The rot started with the X6 for me. Mercedes learnt a lot of lessons from being the whipping boy for so many years. But they’ve successfully re-invented their range, and for many has become a first choice when before things like the M3 or M5 were preeminent. The AMG engines just entice so many buyers just for the “...joy of driving...”. Oh wait that’s BMWs tagline isn’t it... The new e class doesn’t sit right with me although the c is nicer than the 3.
How jaguar went from the original xf to the current one is beyond me. The interior and the exterior seem huge steps, well not even backwards. I’m not sure what they were thinking.
TarpaTow said:
You CANNOT be serious. Tell me you're joking. Or a troll. LOL
BMW are the real drivers' cars, honed for performance and handling perfection. In fact, they're renowned for being the ultimate in driving machines and if you're in a BM you just know you've got respect from other road users, drivers and pedestrians.
The 2-series AT (Active Tourer) adds a sense of Range Rover-like style and 4x4 looks and, for most people, creates a similar image.
You are absolutely right about the joy of driving though, that's why I'm in a BM.
We’re talking about their styling. As a kid, there was nothing more evocative as the twin headlamps on an E30 or E34, mildly aggressive and obviously pronouncing they’d be fun to drive. But these days, and this is coming from someone who’s owned or driven many of the latter M models, well, AMG at the moment are streaking ahead. Case in point. I think the M4 is a cracker in most areas. But when you’ve got the window down and an AMG thunderwagon pulls up, you do bemoan how their engineers let the car leave the prototype stage with such a dull engine note. The E46 sounded rancorous, the E90 glorious when near the limit, but the F82...BMW are the real drivers' cars, honed for performance and handling perfection. In fact, they're renowned for being the ultimate in driving machines and if you're in a BM you just know you've got respect from other road users, drivers and pedestrians.
The 2-series AT (Active Tourer) adds a sense of Range Rover-like style and 4x4 looks and, for most people, creates a similar image.
You are absolutely right about the joy of driving though, that's why I'm in a BM.
I can’t talk seriously about the 2-series AT; it’s the car a disinterested husband just orders over the phone from Stephen James for the family au pair to hover about in. It’s not really the sort of car BMW built their reputation on. It’s just a range filler to stay neck and neck with MB and Audi in sales figures.
Anyway, jokey interlude aside, let’s keep talking about JLR, as we’ve veered wayyyyy offff topic
Flumpo said:
How jaguar went from the original xf to the current one is beyond me. The interior and the exterior seem huge steps, well not even backwards. I’m not sure what they were thinking.
On this, I totally agree - it looks downright awkward, especially from the rear three-quarters. The added glass behind the rear door (as you would expect on an Audi) looks gopping. Jags, like BMW's always used to have that lovely, kinked rear C pillar. The XJ broke from that, but it did it in a convincing and IMHO stylish way. The XF looks a mess though.TarpaTow said:
tigerkoi said:
Agree on BMW! They’ve lost their way completely. For instance their 2-Series Active Tourer is just plain nasty.
... just entice so many buyers just for the “...joy of driving...”. Oh wait that’s BMWs tagline isn’t it...
You CANNOT be serious. Tell me you're joking. Or a troll. LOL... just entice so many buyers just for the “...joy of driving...”. Oh wait that’s BMWs tagline isn’t it...
BMW are the real drivers' cars, honed for performance and handling perfection. In fact, they're renowned for being the ultimate in driving machines and if you're in a BM you just know you've got respect from other road users, drivers and pedestrians.
The 2-series AT (Active Tourer) adds a sense of Range Rover-like style and 4x4 looks and, for most people, creates a similar image.
You are absolutely right about the joy of driving though, that's why I'm in a BM.
I haven't driven one, but I can quite imagine them to be a bit of a weapon on the open road.
So said:
I hadn't realised any of this, until I saw the Active Tourer and was blown away by it. It was just like a Range Rover, only better. It certainly did seem to garner the respect of those around it.
I haven't driven one, but I can quite imagine them to be a bit of a weapon on the open road.
Get confused by JLR range. Is car pictured the new Disco Sport or XE SUV prototype? I haven't driven one, but I can quite imagine them to be a bit of a weapon on the open road.
_Sorted_ said:
So said:
I hadn't realised any of this, until I saw the Active Tourer and was blown away by it. It was just like a Range Rover, only better. It certainly did seem to garner the respect of those around it.
I haven't driven one, but I can quite imagine them to be a bit of a weapon on the open road.
Get confused by JLR range. Is car pictured the new Disco Sport or XE SUV prototype? I haven't driven one, but I can quite imagine them to be a bit of a weapon on the open road.
The Crack Fox said:
Quoted for posterity.
Wouldn't bother, it's a parody account. Shame for JLR. I can't see anything that excites me in the range, other than the F Type. That's never going to sell in volume.
The XE needs to be in the finance deals game to have achieved any traction, before even considering its lacklustre looks and out of date infotainment setup. XF is awkward looking, too.
There's lots of choice in the premium sector and I'm not convinced Jag has any realistic USP to make headway against the big players.
TarpaTow said:
You CANNOT be serious. Tell me you're joking. Or a troll. LOL
BMW are the real drivers' cars, honed for performance and handling perfection. In fact, they're renowned for being the ultimate in driving machines and if you're in a BM you just know you've got respect from other road users, drivers and pedestrians.
The 2-series AT (Active Tourer) adds a sense of Range Rover-like style and 4x4 looks and, for most people, creates a similar image.
You are absolutely right about the joy of driving though, that's why I'm in a BM.
Although I've never owned a BM I obviously agree fully with everything you've said Tarpa. However you must remember that you drive the 118 Sports Executive- would a humbler model command the same respect from others and provide the same unabashed driving pleasure?BMW are the real drivers' cars, honed for performance and handling perfection. In fact, they're renowned for being the ultimate in driving machines and if you're in a BM you just know you've got respect from other road users, drivers and pedestrians.
The 2-series AT (Active Tourer) adds a sense of Range Rover-like style and 4x4 looks and, for most people, creates a similar image.
You are absolutely right about the joy of driving though, that's why I'm in a BM.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46594060
This seems to explain everything (we already knew).
China, Brexit, Diesel, Unreliable, Diversification.
This seems to explain everything (we already knew).
China, Brexit, Diesel, Unreliable, Diversification.
JLR have been going after too large a market share and have ended up diluting the brands too much. They have too many low spec cars, for people who simply want to pose. e.g. Why is the Range Rover available with a 2.0 4cyl and simplified drive train??!!?? IMO - Range Rover drivers shouldn't be giving a f
k about fuel economy. The cars should have a v8 (v6 at the very least), with a low-range transfer box as standard.
Then there's the new manufacturing site in Slovakia... Again, diluting the Britishness of the brand, which is a pity as it's one of their USPs.
...and then there's Jag, where I find a lot of the Jag range to be bland. One or two gems but mostly bland.
I fear JLR have lost their way.
At the moment, the only positive appears to be the exchange rate for sterling.
Hey ho, time will tell.
M
k about fuel economy. The cars should have a v8 (v6 at the very least), with a low-range transfer box as standard.Then there's the new manufacturing site in Slovakia... Again, diluting the Britishness of the brand, which is a pity as it's one of their USPs.
...and then there's Jag, where I find a lot of the Jag range to be bland. One or two gems but mostly bland.
I fear JLR have lost their way.
At the moment, the only positive appears to be the exchange rate for sterling.
Hey ho, time will tell.
M
tigerkoi said:
fatboy b said:
I agree that f-type aside, Jaguar have a dismal offering currently. That said, BMW also stopped making good looking cars a good 10+ years ago.
Agree on BMW! They’ve lost their way completely. For instance their 2-Series Active Tourer is just plain nasty. The rot started with the X6 for me...M
Aquilea said:
camel_landy said:
JLR have been going after too large a market share and have ended up diluting the brands too much.
As an XF owner I agree, but not quite for the reasons you suggest. I don't know why the RR Velar and Sport both exist, and then with the Jag F-Pace on top of those two JLR are just competing with themselves.Also the recent overblown restyling of the Evoque (making it look like a squat, fat Velar kit car built on a Suzuki Jimny chassis) was IMO less to do with updating the looks and more to do with putting some distance between the new and outgoing models looks-wise because of their cock-up over the registering of the intellectual property design of the original. JLR cried foul when Landwind copied it but it was a mistake of their own making, as are a lot of the problems they are facing now.
Did they forget to register the design ?
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
It does seem like the management have pushed out to the press irrelevant factors as to the challenge to JLRs current state. Although it looks like Tata Motors called in BCG to review operations at JLR, to just announce a typical cost Transformation plan (£2.5bn...) should kill all hope that the real issues won’t be tackled. TBF as a senior exec you only get one bite of the cherry with cost reduction exercises. If you bugger it up, you’re gone. But they often paint over the real problems by just firing a few people and announcing new sexy back office computer systems etc, rather than preventing a full on existential crisis for the company’s survival by not getting to the bottom of the problem.
Productivity lags, product range isn’t class leading, strategically poor decision making re:engines, and then you hear a stories like how “someone’s RR burnt out a car park and 1400 cars” or something, which is just bad press. All ripe for a fresh pair of eyes at the top of the company.
Jaguar is pretty much a dead brand. There is no USP anymore. It's heyday was 40-60 years ago and it's been dropping down ever since. Ford made a royal balls up of it with the X Tripe and the S, neither of them particularly attractive. BMW always had a wide range of cars from 1500-3.3 litres and gradually expanded, Audis were always FWD and fairly bland. Merc made vans and trucks.
Jaguar's USP was that it made something nobody else did for the price. The had big 6 cylinder saloons that were very pretty, went like a rocket and/or rode like a dream and cost peanuts to buy in relation to German stuff. 30 years ago, an XJ12 was half the price of a V12 BMW or Merc. It was a thing of real beauty that was unique in the marketplace. Ditto the E Type and to a lesser extent, the XJ-S.
They had a period of stability with the 1990's XJ, a real Jaguar to the core that again, offered a style the Germans could not copy, and they were decent value. Trouble is, they were still a bit old fashioned and Ford thought that making their new cars look like really old ones but ugly as well was the answer and Jaguar have suffered ever since. The original XF imo was a great looking car at the time but it too looks old now, and the new one is nowhere near as good looking.
Why would you want a 2 litre four cylinder petrol version of a big car that looks 10 years old, from one of a few dealerships scattered about the UK? You can pretty much guarantee the G30 520i is a superior product in every respect.
I can't recall the last time I saw an F Type on the road. Porsches? A5's? 4 Series? Loads of those.
Jaguar's USP was that it made something nobody else did for the price. The had big 6 cylinder saloons that were very pretty, went like a rocket and/or rode like a dream and cost peanuts to buy in relation to German stuff. 30 years ago, an XJ12 was half the price of a V12 BMW or Merc. It was a thing of real beauty that was unique in the marketplace. Ditto the E Type and to a lesser extent, the XJ-S.
They had a period of stability with the 1990's XJ, a real Jaguar to the core that again, offered a style the Germans could not copy, and they were decent value. Trouble is, they were still a bit old fashioned and Ford thought that making their new cars look like really old ones but ugly as well was the answer and Jaguar have suffered ever since. The original XF imo was a great looking car at the time but it too looks old now, and the new one is nowhere near as good looking.
Why would you want a 2 litre four cylinder petrol version of a big car that looks 10 years old, from one of a few dealerships scattered about the UK? You can pretty much guarantee the G30 520i is a superior product in every respect.
I can't recall the last time I saw an F Type on the road. Porsches? A5's? 4 Series? Loads of those.
Edited by iSore on Tuesday 18th December 17:08
iSore said:
Jaguar is pretty much a dead brand. There is no USP anymore. It's heyday was 40-60 years ago and it's been dropping down ever since...
...I can't recall the last time I saw an F Type on the road. Porsches? A5's? 4 Series? Loads of those.
Oh I don't know, the 90s & 00s were pretty good......I can't recall the last time I saw an F Type on the road. Porsches? A5's? 4 Series? Loads of those.
...and FWIW - I see a few F Types out and about too.
Whilst on the subject of Porsche; I've been pondering my next cars and for the money, I think Porsche probably offer better value than the JLR offerings. IMO They're nicer cars and better residuals.
But each to their own.
M
iSore said:
Jaguar is pretty much a dead brand. There is no USP anymore. It's heyday was 40-60 years ago and it's been dropping down ever since. Ford made a royal balls up of it with the X Tripe and the S, neither of them particularly attractive. BMW always had a wide range of cars from 1500-3.3 litres and gradually expanded, Audis were always FWD and fairly bland. Merc made vans and trucks.
Jaguar's USP was that it made something nobody else did for the price. The had big 6 cylinder saloons that were very pretty, went like a rocket and/or rode like a dream and cost peanuts to buy in relation to German stuff. 30 years ago, an XJ12 was half the price of a V12 BMW or Merc. It was a thing of real beauty that was unique in the marketplace. Ditto the E Type and to a lesser extent, the XJ-S.
They had a period of stability with the 1990's XJ, a real Jaguar to the core that again, offered a style the Germans could not copy, and they were decent value. Trouble is, they were still a bit old fashioned and Ford thought that making their new cars look like really old ones but ugly as well was the answer and Jaguar have suffered ever since. The original XF imo was a great looking car at the time but it too looks old now, and the new one is nowhere near as good looking.
Why would you want a 2 litre four cylinder petrol version of a big car that looks 10 years old, from one of a few dealerships scattered about the UK? You can pretty much guarantee the G30 520i is a superior product in every respect.
I can't recall the last time I saw an F Type on the road. Porsches? A5's? 4 Series? Loads of those.
Pretty much this. Nothing Jaguar makes now appeals so unless that changes my 18 year old XJ will be the last one I'll own. Jaguar's USP was that it made something nobody else did for the price. The had big 6 cylinder saloons that were very pretty, went like a rocket and/or rode like a dream and cost peanuts to buy in relation to German stuff. 30 years ago, an XJ12 was half the price of a V12 BMW or Merc. It was a thing of real beauty that was unique in the marketplace. Ditto the E Type and to a lesser extent, the XJ-S.
They had a period of stability with the 1990's XJ, a real Jaguar to the core that again, offered a style the Germans could not copy, and they were decent value. Trouble is, they were still a bit old fashioned and Ford thought that making their new cars look like really old ones but ugly as well was the answer and Jaguar have suffered ever since. The original XF imo was a great looking car at the time but it too looks old now, and the new one is nowhere near as good looking.
Why would you want a 2 litre four cylinder petrol version of a big car that looks 10 years old, from one of a few dealerships scattered about the UK? You can pretty much guarantee the G30 520i is a superior product in every respect.
I can't recall the last time I saw an F Type on the road. Porsches? A5's? 4 Series? Loads of those.
Edited by iSore on Tuesday 18th December 17:08
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