JLR on 3 day week

[tigerkoi]

Jaguar steve said:

Pretty much this. Nothing Jaguar makes now appeals so unless that changes my 18 year old XJ will be the last one I'll own.

A chap I had to deal with a few years back had an X350 XJR. He must have been late 20s and I gotta say...I thought he wore it well!

Smart car, that. Had a touch of envy as I heard him careen out the car park.

[craigjm]

The x350 was bloody awful style wise and looks even worse with a fking leaper on it. In 2005 their whole range looked like it was from 1968.

[Olivera]

craigjm said:

In 2005 their whole range looked like it was from 1968.

Despite their current problems (brexit, falling diesel sales, Chinese market contraction etc) I'll be honest and say that Jag's line-up of cars is the best its been for at least 30 years.

What did they have in 2005? An anachronistic XJ X350 bought only by giffers, x-type and s-types that are now mostly 50 quid scrappers and a bulbous XK on a prehistoric XJS platform.

Today's Jag line up is far, far better than what it was in the 80s, 90s and 00s.

[tigerkoi]

Eeeek! Sorry, didn’t mean to give you a headache

I’ve never been big on Jags, but there’s no accounting for taste is there!

[tigerkoi]

Olivera said:

craigjm said:

In 2005 their whole range looked like it was from 1968.

Despite their current problems (brexit, falling diesel sales, Chinese market contraction etc) I'll be honest and say that Jag's line-up of cars is the best its been for at least 30 years.

What did they have in 2005? An anachronistic XJ X350 bought only by giffers, x-type and s-types that are now mostly 50 quid scrappers and a bulbous XK on a prehistoric XJS platform.

Today's Jag line up is far, far better than what it was in the 80s, 90s and 00s.

Hi Olivera,
Brexit and China are figleaves for the real issues that JLR has (imo + many others who’ve made the same point).

The management can keep hiding behind the same macroeconomic excuses but their product doesn’t seem to stand out in the market. Whether you or I are right or wrong about their current range’s desirability, facts are that people aren’t buying them across the piece in enough quantity.

And now management have turned to the trusty external consultants for advice and will just look to cut costs to get their cost:income ratio in range to avoid their necks feeling the blade. That’s not a recipe for great success, regardless. It’s not a growth plan.

[Jaguar steve]

craigjm said:

The x350 was bloody awful style wise and looks even worse with a fking leaper on it. In 2005 their whole range looked like it was from 1968.

The early to mid 2000's represented a peak in Jaguar sales at up to 0.37% of market share which then fell off a cliff to less than half that figure in 2010/11/12 and they've only recovered to similar volumes in the last couple of years.

It doesn't matter what anybody thinks they looked like, back then Jaguar were clearly making a product more people wanted to buy.

(Numbers from Carsalebase)

[craigjm]

Jaguar steve said:

craigjm said:

The x350 was bloody awful style wise and looks even worse with a fking leaper on it. In 2005 their whole range looked like it was from 1968.

The early to mid 2000's represented a peak in Jaguar sales at up to 0.37% of market share which then fell off a cliff to less than half that figure in 2010/11/12 and they've only recovered to similar volumes in the last couple of years.

It doesn't matter what anybody thinks they looked like, back then Jaguar were clearly making a product more people wanted to buy.

(Numbers from Carsalebase)

Sales figures don’t matter a jot. It’s the amount of profit that you are making from those sales. The current XJ has outsold the X350 and is the third best selling XJ ever with only the series 3 and XJ40 bettering it. They make more profit per vehicle. The Xtype sold in quite good numbers but never made any money as it was priced on a projection way above what it actually achieved.

I don’t think the current range is perfect by any stretch and certainly think the new XF is step back from the old one but at least they are cars that people under 60 would consider. The 00s range consisted of -

XJ - let’s build a space ship but make it look like a car from Fred flintstones era

S - you want to look like inspector morse? Certainly sir

X - you want to look like grandad but can’t afford an XJ? Certainly sir here is a car that looks like the previous XJ with added bug eye front

The whole range still suffered from what it does today.... no coupes or convertibles is the main product (when MB and BMW are making tonnes of cash from those) and the wrong engines.

Engines have been a weak point for Jaguar for decades. Late to the diesel party but now put all their chips in that basket just as it fell off a cliff, late to the hybrid party, late to the plug in party, a v12 engine that nobody really wanted because they would rather have gone racing but the rules changed, an XK engine that was ahead of its time but sold for 20 years too many etc etc. Let’s just hope that electricity doesn’t turn into the next Betamax

[_Sorted_]

craigjm said:

...Let’s just hope that electricity doesn’t turn into the next Betamax

Brilliant line. Banked.

[Digga]

Jaguar steve said:

craigjm said:

The x350 was bloody awful style wise and looks even worse with a fking leaper on it. In 2005 their whole range looked like it was from 1968.

The early to mid 2000's represented a peak in Jaguar sales at up to 0.37% of market share which then fell off a cliff to less than half that figure in 2010/11/12 and they've only recovered to similar volumes in the last couple of years.

It doesn't matter what anybody thinks they looked like, back then Jaguar were clearly making a product more people wanted to buy.

(Numbers from Carsalebase)

There's a chap in my village who still has one - i.e. had it for some years now and probably the sort who has a bag or Werthers in the glove box - and I have to say that IMHO, it does still have a certain grace about the shape. Clearly, this is a very personal thing though and, withotu doubt, I prefer the new XJ.

[iSore]

Olivera said:

Despite their current problems (brexit, falling diesel sales, Chinese market contraction etc) I'll be honest and say that Jag's line-up of cars is the best its been for at least 30 years.

What did they have in 2005? An anachronistic XJ X350 bought only by giffers, x-type and s-types that are now mostly 50 quid scrappers and a bulbous XK on a prehistoric XJS platform.

Today's Jag line up is far, far better than what it was in the 80s, 90s and 00s.

Harsh. The X350 was technically very advanced with the alloy body, and the XK was never based on an XJ-S. It was however based on the XJ40 type floor and suspension. But Jaguar was certainly always looking backwards and not forwards. The Ford era was not good for Jaguar - the PAG didn't have a fking clue what they were doing.

[craigjm]

iSore said:

the XK was never based on an XJ-S.

Yes it was. The original x100 XK and the Aston DB7 were both based on a modified XJS platform

[anonymous-user]

craigjm said:

iSore said:

the XK was never based on an XJ-S.

Yes it was. The original x100 XK and the Aston DB7 were both based on a modified XJS platform

The X100 benefitted from the XJ40 IRS setup though while the DB7 had the same XJS setup until the end, hence the dual dampers.

I agree that the X350, X and S-Types were ugly and the detailing was hopeless. Time and the intense uglification of the motor car have been kind to the X350 and late S-Type perhaps, but Ford seriously misjudged things. The X-Type looks more and more laughable as time goes on, however.

Aside from the X300, which reused styling from the XJ90 of the 80s, all of the Ford/Lawson era cars were poorly styled and undermined all the billions Ford invested in them.

This article is an interesting analysis of the failure of the X350 and the entire retro styling theme:

https://driventowrite.com/2016/08/08/jaguar-xj-x35...

Edited by dme123 on Wednesday 19th December 11:18

[iSore]

craigjm said:

Yes it was. The original x100 XK and the Aston DB7 were both based on a modified XJS platform

DB7 yes, X100 XK no. I assume you've had both up on a ramp?

[craigjm]

iSore said:

craigjm said:

Yes it was. The original x100 XK and the Aston DB7 were both based on a modified XJS platform

DB7 yes, X100 XK no. I assume you've had both up on a ramp?

I’m not really that pedantic to give a st so if you disagree that’s fine but the design engineer who signed it off is a friend of my dads. Let’s agree to disagree because it’s not relevant to the conversation here.

[iSore]

craigjm said:

I’m not really that pedantic to give a st so if you disagree that’s fine but the design engineer who signed it off is a friend of my dads. Let’s agree to disagree because it’s not relevant to the conversation here.

I don't give a toss who your Dad's mate is. You're still wrong. Google it.

I've owned XJ-S's. I've worked on XK8's. They are utterly, totally and completely different cars from end to end.




P.S I worked on the DB7 project in 1994 as well btw.

[tigerkoi]

The Crack Fox said:

I hear that all 'non-essential' cap ex for 2019 is cancelled. This is really bad news. This will hurt the economy, particularly in the Midlands.

I think I’ve said it either in this thread or within the one in the News section, but...this has been announced in the press as a £2.5bn cost reduction programme.

So it’s not chicken feed. When initiating these BCG, Bain, whoever, constructed programmes, and you’re in lockdown mode, then on first pass you kill all travel. You raise the sign off level for any expenditure. You dump all advertised positions and no new hires (unless upper level SO) etc etc.

So a lot of opex cost can easily be ripped out and your smart finance analysts in Treasury start making your quarters look like you’re performing much better.

Tata Motors traded up on the news, and I wouldn’t describe JLR as anywhere near distressed.

But unless it’s all about actual company survival, then you’ve got to have a growth plan within this “Transfomation” exercise. It’s got to be a turnaround exercise. Otherwise you’re slicing and dicing your way to a slow death. So some large programmes that will effect change and build for growth need sign off. Capex will have to be found. It has to be. But that’s in a well thought out plan to transform a company’s fortunes!

My thoughts on the JLR situation is that if Tata feel the need to call in BCG, it’s a) to either confirm their (negative) views on the management team, b) just an exercise to trim the branches a bit or c) a panic button to stop falling into the doom loop, and therefore the urgency to turnaround.

You’ve got to nail the root cause of why things aren’t working. Because any idiot can save a few bob and make your cost/income look good for a few quarters, but the lossmaking aspect is only just put off. Turnarounds, often, done properly, cost money.

[saaby93]

iSore said:

craigjm said:

I’m not really that pedantic to give a st so if you disagree that’s fine but the design engineer who signed it off is a friend of my dads. Let’s agree to disagree because it’s not relevant to the conversation here.

I don't give a toss who your Dad's mate is. You're still wrong. Google it.

I've owned XJ-S's. I've worked on XK8's. They are utterly, totally and completely different cars from end to end.

P.S I worked on the DB7 project in 1994 as well btw.

- maybe these underside views help
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/xk8-xkr-x100-17...

[craigjm]

Who gives a toss who did what on a car that’s over 20 years old and has no relevance to the situation JLR are in now and therefore no relevance to this discussion

[saaby93]

craigjm said:

Who gives a toss who did what on a car that’s over 20 years old and has no relevance to the situation JLR are in now and therefore no relevance to this discussion

who started it?

[craigjm]

saaby93 said:

craigjm said:

Who gives a toss who did what on a car that’s over 20 years old and has no relevance to the situation JLR are in now and therefore no relevance to this discussion

who started it?

probably me... I’m an argumentative arse