JLR on 3 day week
Discussion
havoc said:
tigerkoi said:
Basically, LR on its own would be a beautifully set up, happily profitable operation.
Not so sure. Yes you could close the Jag plants, but the redundancy and shutdown costs alone would soak up a LOT of profit.Add-in they'd need to lose one of Gaydon or Whitley (no prizes for guessing which).
...and then add-in the nightmare that is LR/RR warranty costs. Even now.
But yes, Tata divesting one or the other now would be years and dollars of dis-integration effort.
It’s why I still look at the detail of the BCG optimisation plan and question the point of it: a typical, effortless cost optimisation “transformation” plan that executives like, because they’ll secure that healthy EBITDA figure in a lazier way than actually do something like...grow revenues. Or something that requires genuine vision.
Because if you dig in to the gallery of projects that support this BCG plan, I bet you’ll find that the cost to achieve, the low hurdle rates to secure internal funding all mostly rely on headcount restructuring plans (and that significant cost) anyway - probably more than if a Cerberus or KKR swoop in and make Tata an offer they can’t refuse for the LR bit!
We have a beautiful new joint dealership near me and the difference in the 2 ranges of cars is startling.
When you walk into the LR side it is full of very appealing up to date looking cars but when you go through to the Jag section apart from the EV SUV the range is dull dull dull.
It's no surprise that they are offering huge discounts and cheap % deals and still they can't shift them.
I had a loan of a F Pace and it was awful.
When you walk into the LR side it is full of very appealing up to date looking cars but when you go through to the Jag section apart from the EV SUV the range is dull dull dull.
It's no surprise that they are offering huge discounts and cheap % deals and still they can't shift them.
I had a loan of a F Pace and it was awful.
NomduJour said:
Digga said:
Evoque was nowhere near based on the Freelander.
It shares a platform with the Discovery Sport
To a degree. The Freelander Sport is on a version of the platform the Evoque has, with different rear suspension (from both Discovery Sport and Freelander 2) - D8, LR-MS, or whatever it’s called, it started out as a variant of the Ford EUCD platform. It shares a platform with the Discovery Sport
craigjm said:
tigerkoi said:
JLR - a high end luxurious, limousine-like Range Rover, the Defender and it’s variations, a stronger F-Type, a grand tourer to takeover where the XK left off and a carefully considered saloon platform, perhaps. JLR needs to narrow down, forget the competition, row it’s own boat and put out products that people want. And where they have pedigree.
If I had the CEO job I would have -XE or XF coupe and cabriolet with no saloons
XJ saloon along the lines of now buy Tesla S electric
F type more as a 911 rival
Small coupe and convertible ala Boxster
4 seat GT like the maser grantirismo
I would leave the LR line up alone but add the new defender and an Merc X-Class style pick up
The company is never gonna compete with the Germans for mass appeal so don’t bother with 3 and 5 series competitors and play on the sports car history with Jaguar and 4x4 with LR. SUV jaguars is just ridiculous and how many sales do they cannibalise from LR
I think the F-Type was extremely close to being a 911 competitor. It was perhaps just a trifle (and I do mean only just) too large and lardy, but was otherwise an excellently judged car. Certainly I do hear people talk of it, already, as an alternative to a 911.
TheStigsWeeBrother said:
We have a beautiful new joint dealership near me and the difference in the 2 ranges of cars is startling.
When you walk into the LR side it is full of very appealing up to date looking cars but when you go through to the Jag section apart from the EV SUV the range is dull dull dull.
It's no surprise that they are offering huge discounts and cheap % deals and still they can't shift them.
I had a loan of a F Pace and it was awful.
I agree. I'm knocking on the doors of the big 5-0 and am probably target demographic. Nothing I see in the Jag line up makes me want to own one (apart from if the F-Type has a smidge more boot and a spacesaver spare).When you walk into the LR side it is full of very appealing up to date looking cars but when you go through to the Jag section apart from the EV SUV the range is dull dull dull.
It's no surprise that they are offering huge discounts and cheap % deals and still they can't shift them.
I had a loan of a F Pace and it was awful.
TheStigsWeeBrother said:
We have a beautiful new joint dealership near me and the difference in the 2 ranges of cars is startling.
When you walk into the LR side it is full of very appealing up to date looking cars but when you go through to the Jag section apart from the EV SUV the range is dull dull dull.
It's no surprise that they are offering huge discounts and cheap % deals and still they can't shift them.
I had a loan of a F Pace and it was awful.
When the F Pace came out I really took a shine to the car , had a good look at one my Pal bought and that was enough for me , I didn’t even bother with a road test.When you walk into the LR side it is full of very appealing up to date looking cars but when you go through to the Jag section apart from the EV SUV the range is dull dull dull.
It's no surprise that they are offering huge discounts and cheap % deals and still they can't shift them.
I had a loan of a F Pace and it was awful.
RRS I’ve had about three months now , no regrets at all.
lord trumpton said:
It is all too convenient timing with project gear trying to push the deal through this week. Tata must be rubbing their hands, a clean getaway to Nitra!!As someone suggested above about “culture”. Yes, the place is fill of what I can only describe as managers who seems to squirt a line of cocaine on their toothbrushes every morning. It needs a radical culture shift in the factory for one. For example, you have unqualified management running 1/3 of the build hall, and unqualified people balancing jobs. Jobs where these quality issues are born.
lord trumpton said:
On the same day I see news breaking of a $40m investment in Formula E.tigerkoi said:
Without totting up everything opined on this thread, I don’t think the gist of the comments is at all like you say.
I don’t think Jaguar are lacking for brand awareness nor are they lacking in products (numbers of models strewn across JLR). And I’m generally caustic on what their problems are.
Jaguar might have an issue as regards positioning, i.e. where the brand goes next and to what sort of customer it needs to go all out for, but I think anyone who’s even remotely aware of cars has at least heard of Jaguar.
And it’s not a lack of products per se, more are they the right products to sell in volumes to make them successful long term and to be positioned and differentiated enough from the competition. In a nutshell, they’ve got too many models for not enough market share which if pared back might be capital better spent on improving core products they can win upon.
You might not know your way round the range, but knowing an F-Type from a Sports Brake is mere token compared to memorising all of Toyotas range. If you struggle with Jag, good luck telling me the difference between an Aplhard and a Vellfire.
The problem is - like I said a while ago - Jaguar is virtually a dead brand. It doesn't mean anything.I don’t think Jaguar are lacking for brand awareness nor are they lacking in products (numbers of models strewn across JLR). And I’m generally caustic on what their problems are.
Jaguar might have an issue as regards positioning, i.e. where the brand goes next and to what sort of customer it needs to go all out for, but I think anyone who’s even remotely aware of cars has at least heard of Jaguar.
And it’s not a lack of products per se, more are they the right products to sell in volumes to make them successful long term and to be positioned and differentiated enough from the competition. In a nutshell, they’ve got too many models for not enough market share which if pared back might be capital better spent on improving core products they can win upon.
You might not know your way round the range, but knowing an F-Type from a Sports Brake is mere token compared to memorising all of Toyotas range. If you struggle with Jag, good luck telling me the difference between an Aplhard and a Vellfire.
BMW? They've been around making interesting/attractive/fast/desirable cars for as long as we can remember. Anyone in their thirties will remember the E46 M3 and lusted after one as a schoolkid, ditto the RS2 and (but only just) Mercs. They have built up a very strong product image over the last 20/30/40 years.
Jaguar have nothing in that department. Just the woeful X Type and the S Type from living memory that must be the worst looking Jaguar saloon ever. The really good stuff was so long ago now that it has no relevance to what they make today so they have no recent heritage to trade off. In effect, they're starting from nothing with a model range that's like the curate's egg, good in parts but not a valid competitor to the 3 Series for example.
Kierkegaard said:
If I were given the CEO role...
I'd be bold, and pitch Jaguar at Porsche level! Mirror their range.
As you've said make the F-Type more a 911 competitor (obviously keeping the front engined layout). Coupe, Targa and Convertible versions.
Porsche doesn't make its money from 911's. They don't sell enough. It washes its face but the Boxster/Macan/Cayenne etc are the money spinners. Porsche has that market sewn up nicely for reasons outlined above - a strong brand image forged relentlessly for the past 50 years. If you want a Boxster or a 911, that's what you buy.I'd be bold, and pitch Jaguar at Porsche level! Mirror their range.
As you've said make the F-Type more a 911 competitor (obviously keeping the front engined layout). Coupe, Targa and Convertible versions.
As for Jaguar - if it can't or won't turn a profit, close it. There is an instant UK factory to build stuff that will actually make money.
Edited by iSore on Thursday 10th January 18:26
iSore said:
The problem is - like I said a while ago - Jaguar is virtually a dead brand. It doesn't mean anything.
BMW? They've been around making interesting/attractive/fast/desirable cars for as long as we can remember. Anyone in their thirties will remember the E46 M3 and lusted after one as a schoolkid, ditto the RS2 and (but only just) Mercs. They have built up a very strong product image over the last 20/30/40 years.
I remember the first time I saw the then newly released E46 M3. A dark metallic silver convertible parked up on Wigmore St, glinting in the sunlight. What a car! BMW? They've been around making interesting/attractive/fast/desirable cars for as long as we can remember. Anyone in their thirties will remember the E46 M3 and lusted after one as a schoolkid, ditto the RS2 and (but only just) Mercs. They have built up a very strong product image over the last 20/30/40 years.
Anyway back to Jaaaaaagggg. Ralf Speth can bounce around and blame everything else around him, but the seeds of this mess were sown ages ago. He’d be better off blaming the 7-year economic cycle and the fertility of women!
iSore said:
Kierkegaard said:
If I were given the CEO role...
I'd be bold, and pitch Jaguar at Porsche level! Mirror their range.
As you've said make the F-Type more a 911 competitor (obviously keeping the front engined layout). Coupe, Targa and Convertible versions.
Porsche doesn't make its money from 911's. They don't sell enough. It washes its face but the Boxster/Macan/Cayenne etc are the money spinners. Porsche has that market sewn up nicely for reasons outlined above - a strong brand image forged relentlessly for the past 50 years. If you want a Boxster or a 911, that's what you buy.I'd be bold, and pitch Jaguar at Porsche level! Mirror their range.
As you've said make the F-Type more a 911 competitor (obviously keeping the front engined layout). Coupe, Targa and Convertible versions.
As for Jaguar - if it can't or won't turn a profit, close it. There is an instant UK factory to build stuff that will actually make money.
Edited by iSore on Thursday 10th January 18:26
Without lazily saying “old man’s car” I’m struggling to see what Jaguar’s customer base is other than that. I’m 46 but I feel my mates would make jokes about golf club membership and retirement if I bought one.
What is the average age of a Jaguar driver these days?
The Germans have all gone for model range diversification, the 1 to the 7 Series, the A1 to the A8 and SUVs in between. Whenever I see an A1 it’s got a hot to trot young blonde at the wheel, Audi have successfully widened their customer profile.
Jaguar: some saloons, an SUV and a nice roadster. Anyone under 45 buying them?
What is the average age of a Jaguar driver these days?
The Germans have all gone for model range diversification, the 1 to the 7 Series, the A1 to the A8 and SUVs in between. Whenever I see an A1 it’s got a hot to trot young blonde at the wheel, Audi have successfully widened their customer profile.
Jaguar: some saloons, an SUV and a nice roadster. Anyone under 45 buying them?
PurpleTurtle said:
Without lazily saying “old man’s car” I’m struggling to see what Jaguar’s customer base is other than that. I’m 46 but I feel my mates would make jokes about golf club membership and retirement if I bought one.
What is the average age of a Jaguar driver these days?
The Germans have all gone for model range diversification, the 1 to the 7 Series, the A1 to the A8 and SUVs in between. Whenever I see an A1 it’s got a hot to trot young blonde at the wheel, Audi have successfully widened their customer profile.
Jaguar: some saloons, an SUV and a nice roadster. Anyone under 45 buying them?
It was about 60 in the Ford period and about 50 now. What is the average age of a Jaguar driver these days?
The Germans have all gone for model range diversification, the 1 to the 7 Series, the A1 to the A8 and SUVs in between. Whenever I see an A1 it’s got a hot to trot young blonde at the wheel, Audi have successfully widened their customer profile.
Jaguar: some saloons, an SUV and a nice roadster. Anyone under 45 buying them?
They don’t have the cars for really young owners as there are no 1series equivalents or small roadsters etc.
PurpleTurtle said:
Without lazily saying “old man’s car” I’m struggling to see what Jaguar’s customer base is other than that. I’m 46 but I feel my mates would make jokes about golf club membership and retirement if I bought one.
What is the average age of a Jaguar driver these days?
The Germans have all gone for model range diversification, the 1 to the 7 Series, the A1 to the A8 and SUVs in between. Whenever I see an A1 it’s got a hot to trot young blonde at the wheel, Audi have successfully widened their customer profile.
Jaguar: some saloons, an SUV and a nice roadster. Anyone under 45 buying them?
Images have been changed, but it will take another 10-15 years and a sWhat is the average age of a Jaguar driver these days?
The Germans have all gone for model range diversification, the 1 to the 7 Series, the A1 to the A8 and SUVs in between. Whenever I see an A1 it’s got a hot to trot young blonde at the wheel, Audi have successfully widened their customer profile.
Jaguar: some saloons, an SUV and a nice roadster. Anyone under 45 buying them?
tload of cash to achieve it..............is it worth it? At least Alfa Romeo have maintained the kind of image that can be dropped into whenever. They've got more chance of making it than Jaguar assuming Fiat don't balls it up post Marchione.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff