JLR on 3 day week
Discussion
The Crack Fox said:
PSA's last stand in Blighty was the Ryton plant near Coventry making the 206; a terribly designed, badly built, irredeemably hateful little car.
Honestly, I cannot think of a worse partner for JLR.
Not seen any of the new cars they're making? The latest Peugeots especially are great cars, if they can turn them around they can turn JLR around...Honestly, I cannot think of a worse partner for JLR.
Steviesam said:
There have been discussions with VW.
Part of the discussion was that if they did buy them, they would drop the XE, XF and Evoke.
Isn’t the evoque their best seller?Part of the discussion was that if they did buy them, they would drop the XE, XF and Evoke.
I think PSA/Citroen are some of the best cars around, I think they will sort Vauxhall out no end and could be good for JLR. Not sure why VW would bother
Steviesam said:
There have been discussions with VW.
Part of the discussion was that if they did buy them, they would drop the XE, XF and Evoke.
I thought VW were looking at offloading Bentley, Lambo and Bugatti? Why would they pick up JLR?Part of the discussion was that if they did buy them, they would drop the XE, XF and Evoke.
I think given what Daimler's outgoing CEO has said, the development of new EV platforms is going to be really financially painful, even for the big guns. So some cloth cutting maybe going on.
JLR aren't as big as people think. They're not VW or MB scale. Their ability to weather big changes isn't as strong. They wrote off how many billions of diesel investment because they reckon they'd never ever see ROI on it? £3bn? That's gotta smart for them.
Not sure what things would be like under PSA...but I don't think you can deny Carlos Tavares' ability. He's turned that ship around pretty well in my opinion.
Nickbrapp said:
Steviesam said:
There have been discussions with VW.
Part of the discussion was that if they did buy them, they would drop the XE, XF and Evoke.
Isn’t the evoque their best seller?Part of the discussion was that if they did buy them, they would drop the XE, XF and Evoke.
I think PSA/Citroen are some of the best cars around, I think they will sort Vauxhall out no end and could be good for JLR. Not sure why VW would bother
Bring out a Rival to this, no one really cares what engine it’s in or what it’s like to drive (think how many a160D you see with the Renault engine in) market it well like Mercedes have done and you’ll get a following, Volvo have done it with the v40. If PSA buy them they may be able to with a car based on a 308.
Nickbrapp said:
Nickbrapp said:
Steviesam said:
There have been discussions with VW.
Part of the discussion was that if they did buy them, they would drop the XE, XF and Evoke.
Isn’t the evoque their best seller?Part of the discussion was that if they did buy them, they would drop the XE, XF and Evoke.
I think PSA/Citroen are some of the best cars around, I think they will sort Vauxhall out no end and could be good for JLR. Not sure why VW would bother
Bring out a Rival to this, no one really cares what engine it’s in or what it’s like to drive (think how many a160D you see with the Renault engine in) market it well like Mercedes have done and you’ll get a following, Volvo have done it with the v40. If PSA buy them they may be able to with a car based on a 308.
I think buying German cars here is so deep rooted it will be difficult - and has proved to be with recent JLR troubles. German brands (I don't actually include Audi here) have went through the history of being highly engineered, desirable, exclusive cars, even up to 25 years ago. Now they're cashing in on the lower class of cars, small hatches and chasing volume. Jaguar seem to be stuck in the middle offering neither volume or higher prestige (look at Maserati too) to survive.
Nickbrapp said:
If Jaguar is to keep going, they need to do what Audi BMW and merc have all done and bring out a small premium hatchback, we love hatchbacks in this country and we love our German ones,
Bring out a Rival to this, no one really cares what engine it’s in or what it’s like to drive (think how many a160D you see with the Renault engine in) market it well like Mercedes have done and you’ll get a following, Volvo have done it with the v40. If PSA buy them they may be able to with a car based on a 308.
Essentially what you are saying is that they need to build some massive volume to develop the business, or indeed to stay viable.Bring out a Rival to this, no one really cares what engine it’s in or what it’s like to drive (think how many a160D you see with the Renault engine in) market it well like Mercedes have done and you’ll get a following, Volvo have done it with the v40. If PSA buy them they may be able to with a car based on a 308.
Look at JLR production capacity compared to that of the German companies ( and recognise that their budgets are also proportionately small ) and you will see that JLR are producing some world class cars in what is by comparison a shoe string operation.
No doubt we'll all be misty eyed and nostalgic about them if / when they eventually pack up or fold, but until then we'll continue to nit pick and critcise.
If JLR could tech-share with a BMW or Mercedes, I think that would make a lot of sense.
Engines, transmissions, systems and infotainment systems as tried and tested by the best, wrapped in chassis and a brand that is more individual and might justify a premium over premium.
They could then avoid the huge dev costs and concentrate on margin from lower volumes and creating really brilliantly designed and built vehicles.
As they stand they're neither fish nor fowl, without the firepower to make lots of mistakes and brush them off.
Engines, transmissions, systems and infotainment systems as tried and tested by the best, wrapped in chassis and a brand that is more individual and might justify a premium over premium.
They could then avoid the huge dev costs and concentrate on margin from lower volumes and creating really brilliantly designed and built vehicles.
As they stand they're neither fish nor fowl, without the firepower to make lots of mistakes and brush them off.
Burwood said:
Serious question and I’d love to buy one but can’t due to perceived reliability. And that is the general theme. Why is that. Why are they a bit unreliable/hit and miss. Why is it so hard to make a car that doesn’t break down or have so many niggles.
Possibly because they're trying to chase specification offered by the competition but on a much tighter budget. Not that those competitors are immune from making cock ups and providing awful service.
Burwood said:
Serious question and I’d love to buy one but can’t due to perceived reliability. And that is the general theme. Why is that. Why are they a bit unreliable/hit and miss. Why is it so hard to make a car that doesn’t break down or have so many niggles.
Because they don’t have the resources that the big German companies have and they are bashed together in an old spitfire factory by yam yams many of whom used to work for Rover and its predecessors.Wooda80 said:
Essentially what you are saying is that they need to build some massive volume to develop the business, or indeed to stay viable.
Look at JLR production capacity compared to that of the German companies ( and recognise that their budgets are also proportionately small ) and you will see that JLR are producing some world class cars in what is by comparison a shoe string operation.
No doubt we'll all be misty eyed and nostalgic about them if / when they eventually pack up or fold, but until then we'll continue to nit pick and critcise.
They do make some good cars granted, the F type of course, but the rest of the range is just a bit meh, nothing special, the XE Is bland, the XF doesn’t look as good as the original and E pace looks like a Tonka toy and the I pace has a book shelf on the boot, I know it’s critical but it seems odd they sell the same cars as Land Rover, but never quite get any of them right, Jag should have stuck with the luxe saloon and left the 4x4 to Land Rover, they should have used the XJ as the family face, that’s a stunning looking car even 12 years on I think the current one is better looking than anything the Germans can churn out.Look at JLR production capacity compared to that of the German companies ( and recognise that their budgets are also proportionately small ) and you will see that JLR are producing some world class cars in what is by comparison a shoe string operation.
No doubt we'll all be misty eyed and nostalgic about them if / when they eventually pack up or fold, but until then we'll continue to nit pick and critcise.
The Range Rover is the only real one that sticks out as not having any real competition, the only car in its class that can be sold to royals in a beautiful spec or chavs all blacked out and still pull it off, you wouldn’t see the queen in a toureg or even a bentataga.
They risk being left behind by being humdrum, Audi merc and BMW all have the German badge snob advantage, BMW can market themselves for the driver in the market with RWD, and no doubt sell more for it because no one really knows the XE is RWD.
Audi have the technology and slightly not as w
ky badge for them, jag still can’t shake the old man imageMerc have the new chintz factor Audi had 10 years ago.
Even Volvo is doing well by focusing on being different with their designs, beautiful light interiors and safety,
Jag is just a mish mash and has no real reason to say BUY ME, and that’s before BIK and pcp come into it.
craigjm said:
Burwood said:
Serious question and I’d love to buy one but can’t due to perceived reliability. And that is the general theme. Why is that. Why are they a bit unreliable/hit and miss. Why is it so hard to make a car that doesn’t break down or have so many niggles.
Because they don’t have the resources that the big German companies have and they are bashed together in an old spitfire factory by yam yams many of whom used to work for Rover and its predecessors.Jag is the “old Spitfire factory”. No SUV are made there.
YamYams? Your about 10/15 miles out there. Most of the workforce are either Brummies, or from Coventry.
Literally nobody from the old Longbridge factory will be on the track. They’ll all be off track by now with their service.
They are unreliable because they penny pinch when sourcing their parts. (Engineers words)
They are unreliable because someone gets a bonus for removing value-added track heads off the lines each year, making the 'process' much much harder than is 'written', and signed off by H&S. There are multiple models & specs on each line. Every single car is different to the last. There is no pattern. Jobs are ‘balanced’ by idiots.
For example, let’s say the takt time to do your job is 80 seconds before you hit the E stop.
RR Sport spec 1 takes 76secs
RR V spec 1 takes 78
RR Sport Spec 2 takes 86
RR V spec 2 takes 88
They says “it’s okay, it levels out over a shift”. And then all day you get spec 2. It’s just not sustainable. There are also many more specs....
They are unreliable because there is pressure not to pull the line for an issue. This leads to people chasing the car down the line, messing everybody else’s process up. Also, 'if' the car does off line with the fault, It’ll be ripped apart on overtime. How do you know are not creating another problem, ie a quality defect?
Scanners don’t work, or their batteries are knackered. This costs valuable takt time.
Not everybody is pulling in the same direction. A lot of older bullyboy managers have their own agenda.
The union & management are complicit in the nepotism culture.
I’ve noticed they have recruited a lot of EU/World engineers these last 2 years. Romanians, French, Brazil etc.... Is this a move away from the nepotism culture of the ‘old guard’?
Arrogance is another reason. Many managers are up their own arses, and will not think outside the box.
There is too much tech on the brain. It’s a mess!!
As someone’ said. They need a high vol low margin hatch, like a 1.5hybrid. ‘Connect’ the car to the net, and use this data to work out why the passenger widows stops working on a 5 month old car!! What processes occurred beforehand, or is it a defect part that has failed?
They also should have returned the Defender as a pickup, similar to the X Class. LR have the best 4X4 tech, put it in an appropriate vehicle for god sake!! “No no noooo, were a luxury car brand” I was told by a senior manager. Arrogance!!!
I was talking to a bloke in Guy Salmon today. He'd just dropped his XF in. The fault was that the vehicle say saying ‘no fuel’, when his tank was full......
Or just bloody close the place down!
EDITED
Edited by sapf0 on Friday 10th May 18:17
sapf0 said:
craigjm said:
Burwood said:
Serious question and I’d love to buy one but can’t due to perceived reliability. And that is the general theme. Why is that. Why are they a bit unreliable/hit and miss. Why is it so hard to make a car that doesn’t break down or have so many niggles.
Because they don’t have the resources that the big German companies have and they are bashed together in an old spitfire factory by yam yams many of whom used to work for Rover and its predecessors.Jag is the “old Spitfire factory”. No SUV are made there.
YamYams? Your about 10/15 miles out there. Most of the workforce are either Brummies, or from Coventry.
Literally nobody from the old Longbridge factory will be on the track
I think BMW would be the best fit from a LR pov.
The FFRR would be wonderful sitting between the X7 and the Cullinan. It may actually work properly with the shared tech.
They could maybe even merge it with the Royce dealer network eventually and just bin Jaguar completely.
Sadly we've been there before and I suspect BMW wouldn't want to go there again!
The FFRR would be wonderful sitting between the X7 and the Cullinan. It may actually work properly with the shared tech.
They could maybe even merge it with the Royce dealer network eventually and just bin Jaguar completely.
Sadly we've been there before and I suspect BMW wouldn't want to go there again!
Taaaaang said:
I think BMW would be the best fit from a LR pov.
The FFRR would be wonderful sitting between the X7 and the Cullinan. It may actually work properly with the shared tech.
They could maybe even merge it with the Royce dealer network eventually and just bin Jaguar completely.
Sadly we've been there before and I suspect BMW wouldn't want to go there again!
They got what they wanted from LR 20 years ago to start the X Range. They don’t need it now The FFRR would be wonderful sitting between the X7 and the Cullinan. It may actually work properly with the shared tech.
They could maybe even merge it with the Royce dealer network eventually and just bin Jaguar completely.
Sadly we've been there before and I suspect BMW wouldn't want to go there again!
Jazzy Jag said:
It would fit in with the streamlining of the workforce by 4500 to make it look leaner and more attractive.
JLR's real problems are with the incompetence of management, its corporate culture/ structure and poor product quality.
Unless PSA can change the long engrained attitudes, they will just add themselves to the growing list of companies who have tried and failed to fix JLR.
BMW gave up
Ford gave up
PSA...?
For much the same reasons British Leyland and the British motorcycle industry failed in the 70s. Also 'Management' neoptism, union neoptism and you get incompetent people in many positions. Eventually it all goes down the plughole. JLR's real problems are with the incompetence of management, its corporate culture/ structure and poor product quality.
Unless PSA can change the long engrained attitudes, they will just add themselves to the growing list of companies who have tried and failed to fix JLR.
BMW gave up
Ford gave up
PSA...?
Guybrush said:
Jazzy Jag said:
It would fit in with the streamlining of the workforce by 4500 to make it look leaner and more attractive.
JLR's real problems are with the incompetence of management, its corporate culture/ structure and poor product quality.
Unless PSA can change the long engrained attitudes, they will just add themselves to the growing list of companies who have tried and failed to fix JLR.
BMW gave up
Ford gave up
PSA...?
For much the same reasons British Leyland and the British motorcycle industry failed in the 70s. Also 'Management' neoptism, union neoptism and you get incompetent people in many positions. Eventually it all goes down the plughole. JLR's real problems are with the incompetence of management, its corporate culture/ structure and poor product quality.
Unless PSA can change the long engrained attitudes, they will just add themselves to the growing list of companies who have tried and failed to fix JLR.
BMW gave up
Ford gave up
PSA...?
Jazzy Jag said:
JLR's real problems are with the incompetence of management, its corporate culture/ structure and poor product quality.
Unless PSA can change the long engrained attitudes, they will just add themselves to the growing list of companies who have tried and failed to fix JLR.
BMW gave up
Ford gave up
PSA...?
BMW never owned Jaguar, only LR. Their one big success was re-launching the FFRR.Unless PSA can change the long engrained attitudes, they will just add themselves to the growing list of companies who have tried and failed to fix JLR.
BMW gave up
Ford gave up
PSA...?
Ford tried to assimilate Jaguar culturally, and IMHO largely succeeded...which has been to Jaguar's detriment, in all honesty.
But those specific details aside, you're broadly correct.
Wooda80 said:
Look at JLR production capacity compared to that of the German companies ( and recognise that their budgets are also proportionately small ) and you will see that JLR are producing some world class cars in what is by comparison a shoe string operation.
No doubt we'll all be misty eyed and nostalgic about them if / when they eventually pack up or fold, but until then we'll continue to nit pick and critcise.
World class?!? No doubt we'll all be misty eyed and nostalgic about them if / when they eventually pack up or fold, but until then we'll continue to nit pick and critcise.
The FFRR and the i-Pace are the only two world-class cars. With all the rest, ride/handling is their one stand-out feature. Everything else is still at least a generation behind the Germans*, whether it's fuel economy, infotainment, packaging, reliability, dealer support... They have a woeful reputation in the US (a rather unforgiving market which tends to find-out sub-standard machinery)
sapf0 nailed the rest of it above.
I live in the midlands. I've worked for JLR and for 2 suppliers. If they go bump the local economy takes a big bath. And I still wouldn't piss on their managment team if they were on fire...a huge level of corporate arrogance where none is deserved, and a lot of 'jobs for the boys' too...
* and I think the Germans lag behind the Japanese on everything except PQ.
craigjm said:
They got what they wanted from LR 20 years ago to start the X Range. They don’t need it now
That and the Mini brand.I've never understood the love for German stuff. I've never been or drove one that felt any better than the rest of the worlds efforts.
They just seem to be the masters of marketing.
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