JLR on 3 day week

[So]

craigjm said:

There are articles circulating last few days suggesting that the chairman of PSA has suggested they would be interested in JLR

Without knowing the intricacies of the various ownerships, it seems to me that JLR has had a number of bright eyed and ambitious owners who intended to do great things with the brand and yet underlying problems have remained.

[Digga]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

My BIL was doing some consultancy work for AML a few years back when the current V8V project was underway. He told me about the Merc engines and I told him what I thought would happen; all the talk would be about an Aston with a German engine, which now seems to be true. I said I'd not buy an Aston with a German engine, not because I dislike Germans, but because to me, it makes no emotional sense. These cars are all about the emotion. There's no practicality. Every discussion about the car will come back to the engine.

What I completely failed to factor, and is possibly even worse, is that because of the engine sharing, the V8V gets compared to the AMG GTS and comes out an expensive second. I no way shape or form would I want a V8V over a GTS, let alone GTR.

This is sad and unfortunate, because the V8V needs to be the volume, bread and butter Aston model. Although I'm sure a few footballers will be blissfully ignorant enough to buy them...

[Burwood]

Digga said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

My BIL was doing some consultancy work for AML a few years back when the current V8V project was underway. He told me about the Merc engines and I told him what I thought would happen; all the talk would be about an Aston with a German engine, which now seems to be true. I said I'd not buy an Aston with a German engine, not because I dislike Germans, but because to me, it makes no emotional sense. These cars are all about the emotion. There's no practicality. Every discussion about the car will come back to the engine.

What I completely failed to factor, and is possibly even worse, is that because of the engine sharing, the V8V gets compared to the AMG GTS and comes out an expensive second. I no way shape or form would I want a V8V over a GTS, let alone GTR.

This is sad and unfortunate, because the V8V needs to be the volume, bread and butter Aston model. Although I'm sure a few footballers will be blissfully ignorant enough to buy them...

The stock was way over valued when they listed and still is. Nothing to do with the engines. Anyone who paid £18 was a moron, end of. Just another example of the original investors shafting gullible retail investors.

[Digga]

Burwood said:

Digga said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

My BIL was doing some consultancy work for AML a few years back when the current V8V project was underway. He told me about the Merc engines and I told him what I thought would happen; all the talk would be about an Aston with a German engine, which now seems to be true. I said I'd not buy an Aston with a German engine, not because I dislike Germans, but because to me, it makes no emotional sense. These cars are all about the emotion. There's no practicality. Every discussion about the car will come back to the engine.

What I completely failed to factor, and is possibly even worse, is that because of the engine sharing, the V8V gets compared to the AMG GTS and comes out an expensive second. I no way shape or form would I want a V8V over a GTS, let alone GTR.

This is sad and unfortunate, because the V8V needs to be the volume, bread and butter Aston model. Although I'm sure a few footballers will be blissfully ignorant enough to buy them...

The stock was way over valued when they listed and still is. Nothing to do with the engines. Anyone who paid £18 was a moron, end of. Just another example of the original investors shafting gullible retail investors.

In no way was I referring to stock values, purely the product value.

[595Heaven]

Digga said:

My BIL was doing some consultancy work for AML a few years back when the current V8V project was underway. He told me about the Merc engines and I told him what I thought would happen; all the talk would be about an Aston with a German engine, which now seems to be true. I said I'd not buy an Aston with a German engine, not because I dislike Germans, but because to me, it makes no emotional sense. These cars are all about the emotion. There's no practicality. Every discussion about the car will come back to the engine.

You do know where the previous Aston Martin V8 were made don't you?

And the V12...

[drdino]

craigjm said:

There are articles circulating last few days suggesting that the chairman of PSA has suggested they would be interested in JLR

That would help PSA get back to the US market, which they said is of interest to them.

[Digga]

595Heaven said:

Digga said:

My BIL was doing some consultancy work for AML a few years back when the current V8V project was underway. He told me about the Merc engines and I told him what I thought would happen; all the talk would be about an Aston with a German engine, which now seems to be true. I said I'd not buy an Aston with a German engine, not because I dislike Germans, but because to me, it makes no emotional sense. These cars are all about the emotion. There's no practicality. Every discussion about the car will come back to the engine.

You do know where the previous Aston Martin V8 were made don't you?

And the V12...

I do, but they were not nominally branded or in existence in another car.

You look at any and every mainstream review there has been - the prime examples being Top Gear and The Grand Tour - and the provenance of the engine is an issue.

[Ares]

Digga said:

595Heaven said:

Digga said:

My BIL was doing some consultancy work for AML a few years back when the current V8V project was underway. He told me about the Merc engines and I told him what I thought would happen; all the talk would be about an Aston with a German engine, which now seems to be true. I said I'd not buy an Aston with a German engine, not because I dislike Germans, but because to me, it makes no emotional sense. These cars are all about the emotion. There's no practicality. Every discussion about the car will come back to the engine.

You do know where the previous Aston Martin V8 were made don't you?

And the V12...

I do, but they were not nominally branded or in existence in another car.

You look at any and every mainstream review there has been - the prime examples being Top Gear and The Grand Tour - and the provenance of the engine is an issue.

Isn't that just because it gives lazy (and usually fat/old) journalists something to write/whinge about though? I've driven the car. It's brilliant. The engine is brilliant, goes and sounds like an Aston Martin.

[Digga]

Ares said:

Isn't that just because it gives lazy (and usually fat/old) journalists something to write/whinge about though? I've driven the car. It's brilliant. The engine is brilliant...

Seriously, so what? I've driven a 991 GT3 RS, it's brilliant, the engine is brilliant, but that's a very different thing from saying I am possessed of sufficient funds or desire to actually buy one.

Ares said:

...goes and sounds like an Aston Martin.

Damning with faint praise - or in this case a simile.

Trouble is, someone who theoretically has £120k to drop on a V8V, that's the acid test.

[Sford]

I wonder if the current round of cost saving exercises have had the desired effect. The problems seems to be more ingrained than just changing owner/managers; removing the consultants may be an easy cost saving but will it be enough. Living in the area, you still hear about all the people on the books that have relocated from afar to work. Without them there would be a hit locally for all the rentals that are taken up by them Monday-Friday.

[Ares]

Digga said:

Ares said:

Isn't that just because it gives lazy (and usually fat/old) journalists something to write/whinge about though? I've driven the car. It's brilliant. The engine is brilliant...

Seriously, so what? I've driven a 991 GT3 RS, it's brilliant, the engine is brilliant, but that's a very different thing from saying I am possessed of sufficient funds or desire to actually buy one.

Ares said:

...goes and sounds like an Aston Martin.

Damning with faint praise - or in this case a simile.

Trouble is, someone who theoretically has £120k to drop on a V8V, that's the acid test.

My comments had nothing to do with having the financial/familial ability to buy one....just that the engine source isn't huge factor IMO, having driven them.

Journalists just like to pick fault with cars/brands they don't like*



(* gets 'encouragement' from)

[sapf0]

So said:

Without knowing the intricacies of the various ownerships, it seems to me that JLR has had a number of bright eyed and ambitious owners who intended to do great things with the brand and yet underlying problems have remained.

No matter how crap & unreliable it becomes, the Range Rover is still one of the most desired vehicles on earth. It's statement!! Someone will get it right.


As a side question.....

Which established manufacturer, (who ain't already had a go :-), would straighten JLR out?

[sapf0]

Burwood said:

The stock was way over valued when they listed and still is. Nothing to do with the engines. Anyone who paid £18 was a moron, end of. Just another example of the original investors shafting gullible retail investors.

There needs to be some kind of regulation on this, all the big tech firms are considering IPO's, along with JLR. It's just clearly pulling the publics pants down.

[anonymous-user]

craigjm said:

There are articles circulating last few days suggesting that the chairman of PSA has suggested they would be interested in JLR

Yes, the French will help with the reliability woes..

Seriously though, difficult to see who could take on JLR successfully - even those that wouldn't consider it anyway - I could see it slip into VW group, to the horror of many I'd imagine but they don't have a '4x4' company and Jaguar could be reskinned Audis - again to the horror of many I bet. Despite their recent issues with diesels I think VW could still afford to buy out JLR, and turn them around.

[JD]

PRND said:

Yes, the French will help with the reliability woes..

Seriously though, difficult to see who could take on JLR successfully - even those that wouldn't consider it anyway - I could see it slip into VW group, to the horror of many I'd imagine but they don't have a '4x4' company and Jaguar could be reskinned Audis - again to the horror of many I bet. Despite their recent issues with diesels I think VW could still afford to buy out JLR, and turn them around.

I dont think VW could handle the hit to the euro emissions targets that JLR would bring them if they bought them anytime soon.

[Burwood]

JD said:

PRND said:

Yes, the French will help with the reliability woes..

Seriously though, difficult to see who could take on JLR successfully - even those that wouldn't consider it anyway - I could see it slip into VW group, to the horror of many I'd imagine but they don't have a '4x4' company and Jaguar could be reskinned Audis - again to the horror of many I bet. Despite their recent issues with diesels I think VW could still afford to buy out JLR, and turn them around.

I dont think VW could handle the hit to the euro emissions targets that JLR would bring them if they bought them anytime soon.

Really. 10% of their output coupled with not using dinosaur v8s.

[havoc]

Burwood said:

Really. 10% of their output coupled with not using dinosaur v8s.

It's more that JLR don't have any small vehicles, nor (iPace excepted) any true LEVs. WLTP averages are getting pretty tough now - Porsche are looking at a hybrid 911, FFS!!! :angry:

Silly as it sounds, a PSA/JLR "merger" might make sense from PSA's perspective - they get access to some UK plants, some 'premium' engineering (although quite frankly JLRs engineering is far from premium in my experience), one very well-known, if not always well-regarded, brand in RR/LR (let's ignore Jaguar for now...) and a foothold in two completely new segments. Ultimately, scale* is what is going to keep most car mfrs going over the next 10 years....that and cashflow.



* In terms of tooling / R&D amortisation, greater gross-margin to pay for back-office overheads, and blending of WLTP averages.

[JD]

Burwood said:

JD said:

PRND said:

Yes, the French will help with the reliability woes..

Seriously though, difficult to see who could take on JLR successfully - even those that wouldn't consider it anyway - I could see it slip into VW group, to the horror of many I'd imagine but they don't have a '4x4' company and Jaguar could be reskinned Audis - again to the horror of many I bet. Despite their recent issues with diesels I think VW could still afford to buy out JLR, and turn them around.

I dont think VW could handle the hit to the euro emissions targets that JLR would bring them if they bought them anytime soon.

Really. 10% of their output coupled with not using dinosaur v8s.

They are already looking at fines of over a billion euros as it is, absorbing JLR would increase that.

[Digga]

havoc said:

Burwood said:

Really. 10% of their output coupled with not using dinosaur v8s.

It's more that JLR don't have any small vehicles, nor (iPace excepted) any true LEVs. WLTP averages are getting pretty tough now - Porsche are looking at a hybrid 911, FFS!!! :angry:

Silly as it sounds, a PSA/JLR "merger" might make sense from PSA's perspective - they get access to some UK plants, some 'premium' engineering (although quite frankly JLRs engineering is far from premium in my experience), one very well-known, if not always well-regarded, brand in RR/LR (let's ignore Jaguar for now...) and a foothold in two completely new segments. Ultimately, scale* is what is going to keep most car mfrs going over the next 10 years....that and cashflow.



* In terms of tooling / R&D amortisation, greater gross-margin to pay for back-office overheads, and blending of WLTP averages.

The two firms - PSA and JLR -have history. Remember that the V6 diesel used in the Discover also found it's way into the wonderful, guilty pleasure that was the Citroen C6. IIRC it was a joint project from the start.

[craigjm]

Digga said:

he two firms - PSA and JLR -have history. Remember that the V6 diesel used in the Discover also found it's way into the wonderful, guilty pleasure that was the Citroen C6. IIRC it was a joint project from the start.

It was in the 407 before that. The lion engine project was a joint venture started in 1999 and launched in 2003. The v8 version only ever went in RR