RE: Toyota Supra prototype: Driven
Discussion
Hellbound said:
Both cars have had a lot of time and money ploughed into chassis development. I know BMW have spent quite a wedge. They'll offer unique driving experiences and will undoubtedly handle beautifully. That's what I think anyway.
Yes no doubt Toyota development team have worked hard on the handling with the constraints they had, but being underpowered will always hamper the car's desirability and makes it an easy target for street soldiers in their wrapped up hot-hatches (check the A35 AMG thread as a speculative competitor).The original Honda NSX and Lexus LFA are more extreme examples of being toothpicks in a gunfight.
Scottie - NW said:
Some people will just see this as an M140i in a posh (and heavy) frock, and I can see why.
However, they appear to have taken the best bits, B58, ZF box, and sorted out the less good bits, handling, looks, which is good.
Shame about the price, you can have the same engine and box etc for less than £30k in a M140i with the discounts available.
Same weight as an M140i, or just a little lighter, surely?However, they appear to have taken the best bits, B58, ZF box, and sorted out the less good bits, handling, looks, which is good.
Shame about the price, you can have the same engine and box etc for less than £30k in a M140i with the discounts available.
TwinExit said:
382 HP is still toothless.
600 HP is the norm for 1500+ kg performance cars in the next couple of years.
Not for a £50k dedicated sports car platform it won't be! 600 HP is the norm for 1500+ kg performance cars in the next couple of years.
What's the cheapest 600hp car on sale now? M5 maybe? That's £95k and based on a family saloon not developed as a stand-alone model.
Nanook said:
TwinExit said:
382 HP is still toothless.
600 HP is the norm for 1500+ kg performance cars in the next couple of years.
Is it?600 HP is the norm for 1500+ kg performance cars in the next couple of years.
Which ones?
And which ones at a comparable price point to this car?
kambites said:
I love the idea that nearly 400bhp is "underpowered" for a £50k car. 
You talk about 400 bhp being a lot of power from a 1500+ KG car, it isn't so today. A 300 ish BHP hot hatch will stay with a £50k+ car all the way until 120 mph before that 400 HP will start to make any difference. Throw some damp road or traffic light grandprix, more misery for the Supra awaits.Back in 1993, the Supra competed with the 911, Corvette, Ferrari F348, NSX, 928, and the BMW M3. The Supra was designed and built in respect of that segment of the time.
£50k rrp is pure speculation, I wouldn't be surprised it was in the £60k-£70k bracket - but Toyota did win LeMans this season, so they can spin up some handling/track heritage angle to market this car, hopefully a few more Cayman/911 driving gods will jump ship.
Edited by TwinExit on Wednesday 19th September 16:48
Edited by TwinExit on Wednesday 19th September 16:49
Nanook said:
TwinExit said:
Back in 1993, the Supra competed with the 911, Corvette, Ferrari F348, NSX, 928, and the BMW M3. The Supra was designed and built in respect of that segment of the time.
The current entry level 911 makes, wait for it...350bhp.
And weighs...
1500kg.
SonicShadow said:
It's almost as if they had a specific segment in mind, and aren't just pulling target power / weight numbers out of their arse.
To my mind it's targeted more at the Cayman S than the 911. It's pretty close to it for power, weight and price and crucially only has two seats (at least I assume it does?). It probably has the more powerful Mercedes SLCs in its sights too. kambites said:
I'm not saying 400bhp is an enormous amount for a 1500kg car, I'm saying it's enough for a £50k car. If it turns out to be £100k I agree it'll be underpowered but £50k these days is pretty much hot hatch money. An entry level 911 is over £75k and has well under 400bhp.
It's £75k because it's a Porsche.If you pay £50k onwards for a Toyota, you want it to beat the Porsche in every respect otherwise it will remain way down the pecking order.
The Nissan GTR needed not do 1/4 mile in 11.x seconds for £70k back in 2009, no car in that price bracket from Germany or Italy could get near it, it's about disrupting the market with a car that has an ace up its sleeve and unfortunately I do not see anything for the new Supra.
TwinExit said:
You talk about 400 bhp being a lot of power from a 1500+ KG car, it isn't so today. A 300 ish BHP hot hatch will stay with a £50k+ car all the way until 120 mph before that 400 HP will start to make any difference. Throw some damp road or traffic light grandprix, more misery for the Supra awaits.
Back in 1993, the Supra competed with the 911, Corvette, Ferrari F348, NSX, 928, and the BMW M3. The Supra was designed and built in respect of that segment of the time.
£50k rrp is pure speculation, I wouldn't be surprised it was in the £60k-£70k bracket - but Toyota did win LeMans this season, so they can spin up some handling/track heritage angle to market this car, hopefully a few more Cayman/911 driving gods will jump ship.
The thing is though these hot hatches when compared new and given the right options are similar money! They are not hot hatches as the original term implied.Back in 1993, the Supra competed with the 911, Corvette, Ferrari F348, NSX, 928, and the BMW M3. The Supra was designed and built in respect of that segment of the time.
£50k rrp is pure speculation, I wouldn't be surprised it was in the £60k-£70k bracket - but Toyota did win LeMans this season, so they can spin up some handling/track heritage angle to market this car, hopefully a few more Cayman/911 driving gods will jump ship.
It ultimately depends on what your priorities are, do you want a 2 door roadster (Z4), 2 door coupe (Supra) or probably in most circumstances these days a 4WD/AWD hot hatch Merc A45/Audi S3/RS3 I suppose type car. The Golf R does not really fit that if the quoted figures above are right and is a good percentage amount of performance down
I tend to (rightly or wrongly) if I see a hot hatch there is going to be a tool behind the wheel (sorry for the owners on here), but they almost just seem to breed idiots behind the wheel because they think they are "safe" because AWD "mate". I admit idiots can drive any car, but if I generally see a car being driven stupidly it is one of these.
A supra (or in fact one of the diminishing amount of) RWD only cars is more "technical" it may not be as "quick" in some *dick measuring* traffic light grand prix, but why bother! Last time I drove anything with fake AWD (Haldex and similar systems) it just felt completely corrupted and spoilt an other wise pleasant drive in comparison with RWD. Plus having driven solely (pretty much) RWD for a number of years it makes you appreciate and slow down for poorer conditions much more and think about your actions well before.
TwinExit said:
You talk about 400 bhp being a lot of power from a 1500+ KG car, it isn't so today. A 300 ish BHP hot hatch will stay with a £50k+ car all the way until 120 mph before that 400 HP will start to make any difference. Throw some damp road or traffic light grandprix, more misery for the Supra awaits.
Back in 1993, the Supra competed with the 911, Corvette, Ferrari F348, NSX, 928, and the BMW M3. The Supra was designed and built in respect of that segment of the time.
£50k rrp is pure speculation, I wouldn't be surprised it was in the £60k-£70k bracket - but Toyota did win LeMans this season, so they can spin up some handling/track heritage angle to market this car, hopefully a few more Cayman/911 driving gods will jump ship.
Dunno about the others but the 928 and 348 were both £70k cars in 1993. The Supra was about £40k was it not? Hardly competitors.Back in 1993, the Supra competed with the 911, Corvette, Ferrari F348, NSX, 928, and the BMW M3. The Supra was designed and built in respect of that segment of the time.
£50k rrp is pure speculation, I wouldn't be surprised it was in the £60k-£70k bracket - but Toyota did win LeMans this season, so they can spin up some handling/track heritage angle to market this car, hopefully a few more Cayman/911 driving gods will jump ship.
Edited by TwinExit on Wednesday 19th September 16:48
Edited by TwinExit on Wednesday 19th September 16:49
NITO said:
What a tremendous disappointment. This doesn't deserve to wear the Supra moniker and I hope it doesn't. Call it a Celica if anything as that is more in keeping with this effort.
As a previous owner of 2 JZA80's, I have been waiting for this for years, initial design of the FT1 looked good although it always looked a little on the small side. This looks pants in size, in looks, in appeal, hardly a halo model, more of a limp wristed upscaled GT86 for unadventurous moderates as opposed to an emotive beast for red blooded petrol heads.
The bean counters at Toyota have triumphed over the engineers. I was hoping the Supra would be standing proud among its other great compatriots like the Nissan GTR and Honda NSX. Instead it's a lame duck effort in keeping with the rest of Toyota's predominantly uninspiring white goods range. I thought things would be different under Toyoda who seemed to have a genuine passion for reigniting Toyota's flame which burned so brightly in the 90's. The LFA would have made the perfect base for a worthy Supra successor. Now that is a true reflection of what an inspired Toyota is capable of.
Disappointed, very.
Nail meet headAs a previous owner of 2 JZA80's, I have been waiting for this for years, initial design of the FT1 looked good although it always looked a little on the small side. This looks pants in size, in looks, in appeal, hardly a halo model, more of a limp wristed upscaled GT86 for unadventurous moderates as opposed to an emotive beast for red blooded petrol heads.
The bean counters at Toyota have triumphed over the engineers. I was hoping the Supra would be standing proud among its other great compatriots like the Nissan GTR and Honda NSX. Instead it's a lame duck effort in keeping with the rest of Toyota's predominantly uninspiring white goods range. I thought things would be different under Toyoda who seemed to have a genuine passion for reigniting Toyota's flame which burned so brightly in the 90's. The LFA would have made the perfect base for a worthy Supra successor. Now that is a true reflection of what an inspired Toyota is capable of.
Disappointed, very.
Ninja59 said:
A supra (or in fact one of the diminishing amount of) RWD only cars is more "technical" it may not be as "quick" in some *dick measuring* traffic light grand prix, but why bother! Last time I drove anything with fake AWD (Haldex and similar systems) it just felt completely corrupted and spoilt an other wise pleasant drive in comparison with RWD. Plus having driven solely (pretty much) RWD for a number of years it makes you appreciate and slow down for poorer conditions much more and think about your actions well before.
And Honda with the original NSX desperately played the "technical" card and waved around their F1/McLaren connection, but it was deemed underpowered and too expensive.In the states, you had rednecks in their $22k USD GM F-bodies haranguing NSX's all day long, in Europe you just need a E36 M3 4 door saloon to barge past it above 60 mph.
With today's overlapping car segments, the Supra with its 350 horses is exposed towards many cars on many price brackets that would show it the way home.
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