Smart motorway penalty

[G13NVL]

Was it actualy closed further ahead? To me it Looks like they have started to put the red x’s up as that maintenance vehicle starts to put cones out for night time roadworks but they have just started could you not have carried on through the tunnel?

[coldel]

Metallfan said:

He said 'sorry isn't good enough you'll get points for that'

Hmmmm not the best attitude. Mind you what do you expect from some eh.

I guess they would throw that back at you, that you moved back over after passing a lane closed sign well before you passed the gantry with the speed limit still on it?

Edited by coldel on Thursday 20th September 09:55

[coldel]

Metallfan said:

He said 'sorry isn't good enough you'll get points for that'

Hmmmm not the best attitude. Mind you what do you expect from some eh.

I guess they would throw that back at you, that you moved back over after passing a lane closed sign well before you passed the gantry with the speed limit still on it?

If you post up the video it will be much easier to comment on.

Edited by coldel on Thursday 20th September 09:55

[jfire]

Toltec said:

I wondered about that, however since that sign is placed after the road splits it has to be read in advance as you have no option to change lane at it. You need to apply what it says before you reach it if closed so it is not unreasonable to apply it being open before you reach it.

Technically it is a type of race hazard, you cannot turn that sign red on until all of the traffic in that lane between it and the previous gantry has flowed through because the traffic cannot move left as they get close to it. You have to set the previous gantry to red and wait for the intermediate traffic to clear, I suspect the OP was just in that region of time.

Needs an amber left arrow or something to tell you it is about to close and the next set is closed.

Exactly. You can't apply the sign to traffic in front AND behind it and mitigate that trap with an inadequate grace period.

PH members seem to have no sympathy for others who have been unable to slow down in time when limits have changed, which is fair under perfect conditions, but newly closed lanes are a different scenario.

[Pica-Pica]

IanCress said:

I think you've probably got a case to have the penalty dropped. Who's to say you didn't have a car directly to the left of you and a truck tailgating.

Smart motorway being anything but. And not for the first time.

It’s not even a motorway. It’s the A282.

[Metallfan]

jfire said:

Exactly. You can't apply the sign to traffic in front AND behind it and mitigate that trap with an inadequate grace period.

PH members seem to have no sympathy for others who have been unable to slow down in time when limits have changed, which is fair under perfect conditions, but newly closed lanes are a different scenario.

https://youtu.be/4RZrIqM-t5w

here's the video.

[IanCress]

Pica-Pica said:

IanCress said:

I think you've probably got a case to have the penalty dropped. Who's to say you didn't have a car directly to the left of you and a truck tailgating.

Smart motorway being anything but. And not for the first time.

It’s not even a motorway. It’s the A282.

But it seems to come under the same smart motorway rules, and I bet it's run by the same team who run the rest of the M25 smart motorway.

[Tall_Paul]

Metallfan said:

https://youtu.be/4RZrIqM-t5w

here's the video.

So firstly, there was a maintenance vehicle in lane 4, so you would ague that was the reason lanes 3 and 4 were closed. After passing this, the lanes then re-opened as you would expect.

You and the car in front then move into the newly opened lane, only for the lane to close as soon as you move. You would have needed to have gnat-like reflexes and have swerved viciously into lane 2, over the solid white line in order to move back into the open lane, which would have been dangerous in itself.

If you get a NIP, then I see no reason why you can't argue this. Whoever was manning the smart gantries that evening needs a bking.

[LeoZwalf]

:-/ Sorry OP but as I see it having watched the video, you might well expect a fine etc. There are plenty of signs showing the rightmost two lanes are closed. An overhead gantry shows "TUNNEL CLOSED" too. Yet as soon as the red X changed to something else, you were immediately in that lane. I feel like you didn't think it through, ignored what had been shown up to that exact moment and were caught out when the sign corrected itself.

[IanCress]

LeoZwalf said:

:-/ Sorry OP but as I see it having watched the video, you might well expect a fine etc. There are plenty of signs showing the rightmost two lanes are closed. An overhead gantry shows "TUNNEL CLOSED" too. Yet as soon as the red X changed to something else, you were immediately in that lane. I feel like you didn't think it through, ignored what had been shown up to that exact moment and were caught out when the sign corrected itself.

How long do you wait when a sign changes to take action? Do you routinely say "I won't follow the advice of that sign for the moment just in case the operator has made a mistake"?

I can see my self getting in to a similar situation as the OP. In the same situation I would be thinking "ah great, these two lanes have just been opened back up, i'm going to use them and have a congestion free drive through the tunnel".

[Pica-Pica]

IanCress said:

Pica-Pica said:

IanCress said:

I think you've probably got a case to have the penalty dropped. Who's to say you didn't have a car directly to the left of you and a truck tailgating.

Smart motorway being anything but. And not for the first time.

It’s not even a motorway. It’s the A282.

But it seems to come under the same smart motorway rules, and I bet it's run by the same team who run the rest of the M25 smart motorway.

No, it is to control the two, separate, two-lanes-each, tunnels, which have different heights, and sometimes are contraflow (i.e. the easterly tunnel is used for south-bound traffic when the QE2 bridge is closed due to very high winds).

[Tall_Paul]

There are lots of signs saying 'tunnel closed' but what information do you go on, the gantry you passed 0.5km back, or the one you're just passing under?

If you're on a smart motorway and it's been a 40 limit for the past 4 gantries, then up ahead is a gantry saying 60 I'd expect that gantry to be correct. Any normal person would assume that 60 is the new limit once passed under it.

It may come down to judgement, or lack of - considering the multiple signs (smart and non smart) saying 'right tunnel closed', on seeing signs saying it's open I'd probably err on the side of caution.

Revised opinion, now I've seen the tunnel closed signs (on a slow connection so skipped to the part where the sign changed) it could go either way.

[TooMany2cvs]

Let's do a quick timeline of clues and actions from that video, shall we?

1m10 - "move left" arrow in L4 on gantry.
1m21 - roadworks sign on shoulder.
1m32 - "move left" arrows on L3+4 on gantry.
1m48 - "move left" arrows on L3+4 on gantry.
1m54 - "L3+4 closure" sign on shoulder.
2m02 - "L3+4 closure" sign on shoulder.
2m17 - "L3+4 closure" signs on gantry and shoulder.
2m24 - "L3+4 closure" sign on shoulder.
2m35 - "L3+4 closure" sign and "RIGHT TUNNEL CLOSED" on gantry, stationary roadworks wagon in L4 with illuminated move left sign.
2m38 - distant gantry starts to become legible/visible on video, with L3+4 showing orange for limit.
2m41 - OP starts lane change from L1 to L2.
2m43 - start of longer dashes splitting lanes into L1+2/L3+4. Stationary roadworks wagon in L4.
2m44 - OP finishes L1-2 lane change
2m51 - OP starts lane change from L2 to L3. Distant gantry still shows orange for limit.
2m54 - OP finishes L2-3 change, just as longer dashes give way to solid line. Distant gantry changes to "L3+4 closure". 20:52:03 on on-screen clock.
(slight video jump)
2m57 - OP about to reach physical lane divider. 20:52:09 on on-screen clock. Six seconds after gantry started to show "L3+4 closure".
(few more slight video jumps)
3m28 - OP stops at "both lanes closed" lights. 20:52:49 on on-screen clock. 40 seconds after passing physical lane divider, 46 after gantry changed to show closure.

For the moment, let's ignore whether it's enforceable or not - if the womble who rounded you up reports you, then it's probably going to be close-run in court if you take it that far...

Looking at the traffic volumes, there's no doubt you could easily have changed back to L2 if you'd been paying any attention. Mind you, if you'd been paying attention, you wouldn't have chanced it in the first place. It was bloody stupid driving without a shadow of a doubt.

BTW, you can't reverse in a straight line for toffee, either.

[Pica-Pica]

If I had seen a ‘tunnel closed’ sign, and moved early-ish to LH tunnel, then saw RH tunnel gantry signs change, I don’t think I would gallop across to RH tunnel. Why would one? That is an area where you should choose your lane early and stay in it.

[chopper602]

This is NOT Smart motorway, all the gantry signals were showing advisory limits, until they were backed up with roadside roundel signals.

OP is guilty though. Who pulled you up crossing staff or normal Police? Crossing staff will normally call Police to deal with infractions

Edited by chopper602 on Thursday 20th September 12:44

[Tall_Paul]

So it was a traffic womble that helped you back into the correct lane? In that case, I wouldn't worry, I doubt you'll see anything from it. They can't issue points so it would presumably need to be one of the CCTV operators that would need to report you.

He was probably having a bad day, actually having to do some work and all

[The Wookie]

If they’re going to be dicks about it then they’ll say you moved into a closed lane before passing the gantry that showed it to be open, but I sympathise OP, easy mistake to make

[trackdemon]

This is cut and dried; you changed lanes because the closure was no longer being enforced - as indicated by the speed limit in the gantry - and it changed just as you were about to reach the divider. Arguably you had time to rejoin L2, but we're not privy to what was happening behind you so that's debatable. Either way it would have been a less than perfect manouvre. It's a simple mix up that should have been rectified by the womble letting you on your way through the barriers, not acting like a dick.

[TooMany2cvs]

trackdemon said:

It's a simple mix up that should have been rectified by the womble letting you on your way through the barriers, not acting like a dick.

If the OP had reacted as soon as the gantry changed to show the closure, he could have been sat on the paint waiting for a gap before the divider started, even if there wasn't a gap to move to. Even if he'd been a bit tardy, he could have reversed a few car lengths back to the start of the divider.

But, no, he kept bimbling onwards for 46 seconds into the closed-off lane, hoping that his optimism would pay off... Even then, he only stopped because the BMW did.

[Pica-Pica]

trackdemon said:

This is cut and dried; you changed lanes because the closure was no longer being enforced - as indicated by the speed limit in the gantry - and it changed just as you were about to reach the divider. Arguably you had time to rejoin L2, but we're not privy to what was happening behind you so that's debatable. Either way it would have been a less than perfect manouvre. It's a simple mix up that should have been rectified by the womble letting you on your way through the barriers, not acting like a dick.

Yes it is cut and dried. It is not about gantry signs or whatever, but a manoeuvre that could be considered careless or dangerous. As far as I understand, the OP was not instructed at the last minute to move lanes, but saw a last-minute given opportunity to move lanes, but should have stayed in current lane. I stand to be corrected, but that seems the essence to me.