RE: Ferrari Monza SP1 and SP2: Official!
Discussion
that is a brilliant analogy there!To be fair, I doubt your average HNW individual either goes to the pub or cares what the patrons of the pub think. They'll all likely have been sold mostly to places like the M.E, N.A and Monaco. In the context of the Casino square parking lot, Pebble Beach, Downtown Dubai they'll get the attention the owners want. Let's face it, cars like this are not made for the U.K with the exception of expensive London postcodes - driving a Ferrari convertible around a Yorkshire mill town makes anyone look a bit of a nobber, same car round Monaco = much cooler.
thegreenhell said:
That SLR thing was based on a carbon tub though, so it wouldn't lose any strength by not having a roof. The aluminium chassis in the Ferrari would need more reinforcing compared to the coupe version. It's very common for convertibles to weigh more than the coupe they were converted from.
Why would it need more engine parts to make more power?
good point.Why would it need more engine parts to make more power?
I only just avoided a coffee/keyboard interface too!fblm said:
GroundEffect said:
Carbon body panels are irrelevant. It's the structure that holds the weight and this is aluminium which means a lot of reinforcement underneath when roof taken off. And it has a sodding 6.5 V12 in it.
Only on PH would a 820PS super-duper car weighing similar to a 3 series is scorned for not trying hard enough.
Firstly I'd love one, it's stunning but yes for the price they are no doubt going to charge lopping the top off a production car and bolting on some very pretty new panels really isn't trying that hard! The F50 also had a V12, no roof and weighed 600lb less. 20 years ago. 600 pounds! That's like buying an F50 and squeezing in there with 2 Diane Abbots. It's just wrong!Only on PH would a 820PS super-duper car weighing similar to a 3 series is scorned for not trying hard enough.
Edited by fblm on Wednesday 19th September 22:33
Above is the F12 structure (812 same platform). This would have been designed for a given cost, weight and performance (stiffness/compliance/NVH/crash). To then go back after the fact and remove weight is hugely expensive - especially when extra weight would have been added to maintain performance vs the 812 coupe.
This was down to cost. For a low-volume production vehicle it makes no sense to spend a fortune on it. It's already a light car considering the performance.
Using the F50 as an example is pointless - the F50 was designed from the ground-up for a given weight target and it was a completely different product:
- Carbon tub - already significantly lighter than aluminium; no reinforcements required when you take the roof off.
- Smaller car - The 812 is a big car
- Engine/trans stressed members - the back-half of the car is just powertrain; the suspension mounts directly off the transmission case (at least 20kg in the subframe required to support the powertrain)
- 4.7L V12 vs 6.5 V12 - I can find details that the F140 V12 in the 812 is around 230kg whereas the F50 was ~200kg (there's 30kg difference)
- F50 has no prop shaft - 812 engine has a prop shaft and bell-house to the rear transmission (at least 15kg difference)
- 6 speed manual transmission for 470Nm - estimating that the transmission will be around 80kg, whereas the 7DCL750 in the 812 is 128kg (58kg difference)
So ignoring the rest of the structure issues, I can find at least 120kg in the powertrain and its subframe alone - the full difference between F50 and 812 is 300kg, so it's not really much of a stretch to find the rest. Especially when the F50 vibrated like a "marital aid" on a Tesla supercharger. The 812 is a Super GT, with complex powertrain mounts and subframe assemblies (adding weight) and a structure designed to dampen out the worst of the NVH.
Here's an undressed F50:
But stay up on your soap box, please, don't let reason and engineering get in the way
The F50 didn’t have much in the way of computers?
I imagine this still has all of the tech the 812 has so lots of black box’s sensors and wiring. It all weighs something. How much I have no idea.
This is all completely mental any way. The 812 doesn’t exactly have a reputation for being slow or boring. I some how doubt losing the roof and wind protection plus making gorgeous has diluted the experience much.
I imagine this still has all of the tech the 812 has so lots of black box’s sensors and wiring. It all weighs something. How much I have no idea.
This is all completely mental any way. The 812 doesn’t exactly have a reputation for being slow or boring. I some how doubt losing the roof and wind protection plus making gorgeous has diluted the experience much.
GroundEffect said:
But stay up on your soap box, please, don't let reason and engineering get in the way
I will. Thank you. Clearly a threesome with Diane in an F50 is more desirable than I imagined. Obviously Ferrari used the wrong platform to make a light weight car. They have erred in favour of more power and more weight. Personally I think that's a real shame in light of the noises they were making a few years back regarding their future being feather weight cars like the Millechili. Who cares what I think, I'm sure they were all sold the second the books opened. Which brings us to cost. The 812 is a 275 grand car. If the Monza costs say 550 then I can forgive them for dropping a beautiful body on a compromised and heavily braced 812 chassis and totally get why it weighs what it does. If it costs much more then I think they are taking the pi55 not using a bespoke carbon tub and losing a few hundred kg. Unfortunately it's so beautiful I'm struggling to see it costing less than a million.Nice pics of the 2 chassis.
And thanks for the GCSE in 'walking weight out of a chassis'
fblm MA MEng
Weight isn't everything, really. My E92 M3 was a fantastic handling car - one of the best I've ever driven - and it was also on the porky side at 1630kg DIN. My Lotus is also fantastic at 850kg - in a different way - but with that comes NVH issues and the fact it is tiny.
Groundeffect 200m swimming certificate
Groundeffect 200m swimming certificate
k me there is some s
GroundEffect said:
Weight isn't everything, really. My E92 M3 was a fantastic handling car - one of the best I've ever driven - and it was also on the porky side at 1630kg DIN. My Lotus is also fantastic at 850kg - in a different way - but with that comes NVH issues and the fact it is tiny.
Groundeffect 200m swimming certificate
I thought for a moment the thread was going to enter into the realms of "my chipped 330d is faster in a straight line, is lighter, and handles better, and I only paid £1,500 for it...."...... Groundeffect 200m swimming certificate
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