Turbo Reliability - A ticking timebomb?
Discussion
2 things not mentioned yet. if the boost is cranked up then this will shorten its life especially in conjunction with ropey maintenance.
Regular quality oil and filter changes aside, on those that are water cooled (most these days) its just as important that the cooling system is looked after and any leaks or signs of even slight overheating are investigated and nipped in the bud to preserve the life of the turbo bearings/sleeves or the housings. I think some cars now have separate cooling for the turbo from the engine block but the same applies.
I ran an original turbo that gave good service for 150k before becoming slightly noisy but still boosted hard with no smoke or oil leaks. Never did find out the cause of the noise as I just fitted a brand new unit.
Regular quality oil and filter changes aside, on those that are water cooled (most these days) its just as important that the cooling system is looked after and any leaks or signs of even slight overheating are investigated and nipped in the bud to preserve the life of the turbo bearings/sleeves or the housings. I think some cars now have separate cooling for the turbo from the engine block but the same applies.
I ran an original turbo that gave good service for 150k before becoming slightly noisy but still boosted hard with no smoke or oil leaks. Never did find out the cause of the noise as I just fitted a brand new unit.
I had a E60 530d that ate a turbo every month. Various garages locally assured me they had found and fixed the blockage in the turbo oil feed, and this time the replacement turbo would definitely last. So even running without any cooling, bearings can last a few thousand miles, if you can put up with driving a car that sounds like an air-raid siren 
And no, it was never fixed.
And no, it was never fixed.
ToothbrushMan said:
2 things not mentioned yet. if the boost is cranked up then this will shorten its life especially in conjunction with ropey maintenance.
Regular quality oil and filter changes aside, on those that are water cooled (most these days) its just as important that the cooling system is looked after and any leaks or signs of even slight overheating are investigated and nipped in the bud to preserve the life of the turbo bearings/sleeves or the housings. I think some cars now have separate cooling for the turbo from the engine block but the same applies.
I ran an original turbo that gave good service for 150k before becoming slightly noisy but still boosted hard with no smoke or oil leaks. Never did find out the cause of the noise as I just fitted a brand new unit.
if anythings modified, then all bets are off.Regular quality oil and filter changes aside, on those that are water cooled (most these days) its just as important that the cooling system is looked after and any leaks or signs of even slight overheating are investigated and nipped in the bud to preserve the life of the turbo bearings/sleeves or the housings. I think some cars now have separate cooling for the turbo from the engine block but the same applies.
I ran an original turbo that gave good service for 150k before becoming slightly noisy but still boosted hard with no smoke or oil leaks. Never did find out the cause of the noise as I just fitted a brand new unit.
Generally though if you do modify the car, you should also be doing more periodic maintenance. A tale of two Skylines, both R34 GTST, both modded, both on mostly stock parts. One guy serviced his ever 5000 KM, every knock, rattle or niggle investigated and sorted. The other laughed at this notion up until the point where he was looking for a new RB25, intercooler, turbo and radiator. In the end, it was cheaper to over service and AFAIK, still running.
But that's for modded cars, your average turbo engine should be reasonably expected to get 500,000 miles on it with regular maintenance (as in manufacturer recommended intervals). I wouldn't be surprised if many make it to a million miles, it's usually other components combined with economics that kill a car these days. NA engines aren't much better for reliability as they're getting pretty complex but still good for hundreds of thousands of miles. Long gone are the days where you could abuse an engine for it's entire life, but also long gone are the days when that life was 100,000 miles.
Max_Torque said:
Change your oil on time
Warm up engine before giving it death
Cool down engine before switching off
Do those^^^ and a typical turbo will do >150 kmiles before wearing out (or much more if driven gently)
Three of mine have done 300k plus by following this procedure, the current one still going strong.Warm up engine before giving it death
Cool down engine before switching off
Do those^^^ and a typical turbo will do >150 kmiles before wearing out (or much more if driven gently)
I have no concerns with the turbo, I am more concerned about the tiny engines they are being bolted to these days. Look at the Ford 1 litre Ecoboost for example, lots of stories of these engines loosing coolant and pretty much immediately failing due to overheating.
I drove a Renault Captur hire car recently with the 0.9 3 cylinder engine and it was rough at idle, gutless and didn't even have good MPG. It even had an ECO button that made it virtually undriveable.
I understand that manufacturers are doing this for emission reasons, but I really can't see these highly stressed engines making it to 100k miles. But then again I guess who really cares as they will all be leased anyway.
I drove a Renault Captur hire car recently with the 0.9 3 cylinder engine and it was rough at idle, gutless and didn't even have good MPG. It even had an ECO button that made it virtually undriveable.
I understand that manufacturers are doing this for emission reasons, but I really can't see these highly stressed engines making it to 100k miles. But then again I guess who really cares as they will all be leased anyway.
amoeba said:
Did they really make turbos with journal bearings? Seems like it would be asking for dire life to me....
The whole idea is that as soon as there is oil pressure, there's no contact between the solid parts as there is a permanent fluid film. I've found journal bearing turbos to be the more sturdy units as a rule.My a4 1.8t has 180k miles on the stock engine and turbo and I've had no issues with it at all.
I used to have a 200sx and had no issues with the standard journal bearing turbo either, only started having issues when running a ball-bearing blower, which eventually failed prematurely even when serviced religiously and run at moderate boost pressure.
Most importantly - oil changes every year (anyone who cares about their car should do this) to keep the turbo and engine nicely lubricated and taking away carbon.
The only downside I see to turbo'd cars is clutch life. If they are driven hard the clutches will fail a lot sooner than a lower torque N/A car. My 2.5T ST mk2 needed a new one at 80k (which I consider very good for the type of car it was). However my original Focus Mk1 1.6 was at 105k and needed a new clutch after a hard life! BMW 325i was on it's original clutch despite being 11 years old, 52k when I bought it. I put on 30k in less than 2 years and the clutch was still perfect.
Note - I would expect the super lower capacity turbo cars to not be using a Dual Mass Flywheel? That's the downside with the cars I've owned. All but one used that setup. Come the day the friction plate wears you ought to replace the DMF too. Looking at 1200 quid job!
The only downside I see to turbo'd cars is clutch life. If they are driven hard the clutches will fail a lot sooner than a lower torque N/A car. My 2.5T ST mk2 needed a new one at 80k (which I consider very good for the type of car it was). However my original Focus Mk1 1.6 was at 105k and needed a new clutch after a hard life! BMW 325i was on it's original clutch despite being 11 years old, 52k when I bought it. I put on 30k in less than 2 years and the clutch was still perfect.
Note - I would expect the super lower capacity turbo cars to not be using a Dual Mass Flywheel? That's the downside with the cars I've owned. All but one used that setup. Come the day the friction plate wears you ought to replace the DMF too. Looking at 1200 quid job!
Joey Deacon said:
I have no concerns with the turbo, I am more concerned about the tiny engines they are being bolted to these days. Look at the Ford 1 litre Ecoboost for example, lots of stories of these engines loosing coolant and pretty much immediately failing due to overheating.
The stories were down to a badly designed coolant pipe letting the coolant escape and then carrying on driving.They develop a high output for the size and are physically quite small so physics dictates it will, generate a lot of heat and not be able to dissipate it if there isnt a constant flow of coolant.
It isnt a problem on the later ones I believe, but a small, high output engine with no coolant is a bad combination, its not like a Pinto that could dump the lot, and if it was fairly cool outside would run happily, indefinitely without any
I saw it happen, that's the benefit of a 100 odd kilo cast iron engine developing 70 ish bhp.But, they took a while to warm up, were crap on fuel, had horrendous emissions, were heavy and the car was slow and gutless.
I would rather have a small, light, reasonably economical, powerful 1 litre engine that doesnt have a massive margin for coolant loss due to being a boat anchor.
The Rover K series suffered a bit from being a svelte aluminium engine, that and the headgasket design. Boot it and it heats the coolant quickly and causes it to warm up in an unequal manner and stuff expands at different rates and moves.
Older engines with more material and less power seemed to act as sort of a thermal buffer (Max Torque help me out here as I may be talking b
ks) but nowadays we cant really afford to carry that round whilst we have the power.Key thing is to check your coolant and cooling system periodically and shut down the second you get a warning, to be honest, design issues aside, how often have you lost coolant suddenly, stone through the radiator or during a crash, its not very often if the system is in good condition and your head gasket isnt screwed.
I do notice our Fiesta, when the wife arrives home from a short journey and witches it off, it sounds like a plane with the APU running, think maybe due in part to having the aircon on but also I am guessing Ford have programmed it to cool itself after running, dont think the water pump is electric so guess it just cools on the fan and convects around ?
joeshaw123 said:
amoeba said:
Did they really make turbos with journal bearings? Seems like it would be asking for dire life to me....
The whole idea is that as soon as there is oil pressure, there's no contact between the solid parts as there is a permanent fluid film. I've found journal bearing turbos to be the more sturdy units as a rule.My a4 1.8t has 180k miles on the stock engine and turbo and I've had no issues with it at all.
I used to have a 200sx and had no issues with the standard journal bearing turbo either, only started having issues when running a ball-bearing blower, which eventually failed prematurely even when serviced religiously and run at moderate boost pressure.
J4CKO said:
I do notice our Fiesta, when the wife arrives home from a short journey and witches it off, it sounds like a plane with the APU running, think maybe due in part to having the aircon on but also I am guessing Ford have programmed it to cool itself after running, dont think the water pump is electric so guess it just cools on the fan and convects around ?
Some ecoboosts do have an auxiliary electric water pump for cooling the turbo. I don't know which models though. I saw a thread on here once about retro-fitting it to cars that don't have it.Max_Torque said:
Change your oil on time
Warm up engine before giving it death
Cool down engine before switching off
Do those^^^ and a typical turbo will do >150 kmiles before wearing out (or much more if driven gently)
Followed this and my 25yr old Skyline on 120k was totally fine on it's original turboWarm up engine before giving it death
Cool down engine before switching off
Do those^^^ and a typical turbo will do >150 kmiles before wearing out (or much more if driven gently)
amoeba said:
Nigel_O said:
Modern turbos (especially roller-bearing units, rather than journal-bearing) will last for ages as long as the oil is good (and plentiful)
Did they really make turbos with journal bearings? Seems like it would be asking for dire life to me....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8VjG6g-8dw
Having worked testing bits of turbo's for industry.
Modern turbo's are designed to make the company money, generally expect majority of the units to last at least the warranty period for given application.
Other factors might affect the design life beyond that. For example; a reputation for reliability to maintain, some units will be used in multiple applications, worst case will be designed for. But majority of passenger cars will be as stated above.
Can't use older turbocharger examples as a guide to newer units longevity, analysis technique's change and get more accurate. This allows manufactures to optimize the design for cost vs life.
Oil change frequency will only protect from bearing wear, the other multitude of potential failure modes (compressor wheel fatigue) will happen regardless.
Running the turbo at higher speeds by remapping, will induce more stress on the compressor wheel and reduce its life.
Any questions please ask I'll do my best.
Modern turbo's are designed to make the company money, generally expect majority of the units to last at least the warranty period for given application.
Other factors might affect the design life beyond that. For example; a reputation for reliability to maintain, some units will be used in multiple applications, worst case will be designed for. But majority of passenger cars will be as stated above.
Can't use older turbocharger examples as a guide to newer units longevity, analysis technique's change and get more accurate. This allows manufactures to optimize the design for cost vs life.
Oil change frequency will only protect from bearing wear, the other multitude of potential failure modes (compressor wheel fatigue) will happen regardless.
Running the turbo at higher speeds by remapping, will induce more stress on the compressor wheel and reduce its life.
Any questions please ask I'll do my best.
Barronmr said:
Having worked testing bits of turbo's for industry.
Modern turbo's are designed to make the company money, generally expect majority of the units to last at least the warranty period for given application.
Other factors might affect the design life beyond that. For example; a reputation for reliability to maintain, some units will be used in multiple applications, worst case will be designed for. But majority of passenger cars will be as stated above.
Can't use older turbocharger examples as a guide to newer units longevity, analysis technique's change and get more accurate. This allows manufactures to optimize the design for cost vs life.
Oil change frequency will only protect from bearing wear, the other multitude of potential failure modes (compressor wheel fatigue) will happen regardless.
Running the turbo at higher speeds by remapping, will induce more stress on the compressor wheel and reduce its life.
Any questions please ask I'll do my best.
So turbos are now designed to last the same length as the manufacturers warranty ?Modern turbo's are designed to make the company money, generally expect majority of the units to last at least the warranty period for given application.
Other factors might affect the design life beyond that. For example; a reputation for reliability to maintain, some units will be used in multiple applications, worst case will be designed for. But majority of passenger cars will be as stated above.
Can't use older turbocharger examples as a guide to newer units longevity, analysis technique's change and get more accurate. This allows manufactures to optimize the design for cost vs life.
Oil change frequency will only protect from bearing wear, the other multitude of potential failure modes (compressor wheel fatigue) will happen regardless.
Running the turbo at higher speeds by remapping, will induce more stress on the compressor wheel and reduce its life.
Any questions please ask I'll do my best.
Which is generally between three and seven years ?
Surely the cost to their reputation is more valuable than savings from speccing a turbo that fails at three years ?
Is there that much to save in the design ? they have to make a casing, compressor wheel, bearings, wastegate etc etc anyway ?
Barronmr said:
Having worked testing bits of turbo's for industry.
Modern turbo's are designed to make the company money, generally expect majority of the units to last at least the warranty period for given application.
Other factors might affect the design life beyond that. For example; a reputation for reliability to maintain, some units will be used in multiple applications, worst case will be designed for. But majority of passenger cars will be as stated above.
Can't use older turbocharger examples as a guide to newer units longevity, analysis technique's change and get more accurate. This allows manufactures to optimize the design for cost vs life.
Oil change frequency will only protect from bearing wear, the other multitude of potential failure modes (compressor wheel fatigue) will happen regardless.
Running the turbo at higher speeds by remapping, will induce more stress on the compressor wheel and reduce its life.
Any questions please ask I'll do my best.
I think you need to explain that in a little more detail. If you are suggesting that the turbo is only designed to last 3 years, I simply don't believe you. If you are suggesting that the turbo along with every other component is designed to only last 3 years (why single out the turbo?) I believe you even less.Modern turbo's are designed to make the company money, generally expect majority of the units to last at least the warranty period for given application.
Other factors might affect the design life beyond that. For example; a reputation for reliability to maintain, some units will be used in multiple applications, worst case will be designed for. But majority of passenger cars will be as stated above.
Can't use older turbocharger examples as a guide to newer units longevity, analysis technique's change and get more accurate. This allows manufactures to optimize the design for cost vs life.
Oil change frequency will only protect from bearing wear, the other multitude of potential failure modes (compressor wheel fatigue) will happen regardless.
Running the turbo at higher speeds by remapping, will induce more stress on the compressor wheel and reduce its life.
Any questions please ask I'll do my best.
Manufacturers sell their cars partially based upon their reputation for building reliable cars, no manufacturer would ever send out a car with such a limited engineered design-life.
amoeba said:
Nigel_O said:
Modern turbos (especially roller-bearing units, rather than journal-bearing) will last for ages as long as the oil is good (and plentiful)
Did they really make turbos with journal bearings? Seems like it would be asking for dire life to me....https://www.hybridturbos.com/technical/journal-vs-...
Turbos are pretty reliable in my experience.
Audi S3 2.0T - no issues
E46 320d sold with 185k on original turbo and clutch
35i engine twin turbo setup no issues
530d engine currently 20k no problem
340i no issues
I think if you drive sympathetically and maintain your cars properly any car will be realiable really. I couldn’t believe how my 320d clutch lasted. When I sold it it was in still decent shape with no slippage and turbo whistled a tiny bit since 57k but I always it was just the way it sounded on thatcar. On the later years I was changing the oil and filter every 6 months regarding of mileage and was looking after the clutch. It’s one of the few cars I wished I kept as it was really useful to have.
Audi S3 2.0T - no issues
E46 320d sold with 185k on original turbo and clutch
35i engine twin turbo setup no issues
530d engine currently 20k no problem
340i no issues
I think if you drive sympathetically and maintain your cars properly any car will be realiable really. I couldn’t believe how my 320d clutch lasted. When I sold it it was in still decent shape with no slippage and turbo whistled a tiny bit since 57k but I always it was just the way it sounded on thatcar. On the later years I was changing the oil and filter every 6 months regarding of mileage and was looking after the clutch. It’s one of the few cars I wished I kept as it was really useful to have.
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