RE: The Early Group A Heroes of WRC
Discussion
JarkleTGC said:
I wrote the article so I may as well field some of the queries.
Firstly, apologies if you feel the title is misleading. I certainly didn’t mean it to be so, rather a means of highlighting that those cars campaigned in the late ‘80s tend to be overlooked by those not stage side at the time or with a rallying interest limited to better known cars and era, so Group 4 Escorts, Group B Quattros and modern World Rally Car kit, basically.
Ditto the ‘Early Group A’ bit; I was attempting to highlight the Group A machines thrust to the fore in the wake of the incidents in ’86. I’m well aware that a great many Group A cars competed in years before ’87, many of which deserve greater recognition than they receive (Alfa GTV6, anyone?), I was merely trying to convey how unforeseen results could be scored by unfancied car & driver combos in the years immediately following the category’s sudden promotion to the top of the rallying world.
Anyway, glad most of you liked it, and feel free to check out my Facebook page, The Gravel Crew, if you fancy more of the same.
Jamie
https://www.facebook.com/WorldRallying/
Thank you for the reply (and the article). Kindly appreciated Firstly, apologies if you feel the title is misleading. I certainly didn’t mean it to be so, rather a means of highlighting that those cars campaigned in the late ‘80s tend to be overlooked by those not stage side at the time or with a rallying interest limited to better known cars and era, so Group 4 Escorts, Group B Quattros and modern World Rally Car kit, basically.
Ditto the ‘Early Group A’ bit; I was attempting to highlight the Group A machines thrust to the fore in the wake of the incidents in ’86. I’m well aware that a great many Group A cars competed in years before ’87, many of which deserve greater recognition than they receive (Alfa GTV6, anyone?), I was merely trying to convey how unforeseen results could be scored by unfancied car & driver combos in the years immediately following the category’s sudden promotion to the top of the rallying world.
Anyway, glad most of you liked it, and feel free to check out my Facebook page, The Gravel Crew, if you fancy more of the same.
Jamie
https://www.facebook.com/WorldRallying/
An interesting time that I remember well. It threw plenty of orphans to the forefront like the Sierra XR4x4 and I remember the Mazdas broke all the time and never had quite enough grunt.
One of the oddities is that you can often obtain ex works examples of some of these cars for similar money to the road versions these days. I know where I'd park my money.
One of the oddities is that you can often obtain ex works examples of some of these cars for similar money to the road versions these days. I know where I'd park my money.
I feel lucky to be old enough (50 tomorrow - woohoo!) to have enjoyed rallying from the mid-late seventies through to the present day.
My earliest memories are of Mk11 Escorts at crazy angles, driven the likes of Roger Clark, Hannu Mikkola etc. Then along came the Gp. B monsters, led by the Audi quattro, which changed the landscape somewhat. Gp. B was untenable, however, and - as Jamie alludes to - there were too many incidents to be ignored, although in truth some of that was down to crowd control.
Gp. A was ushered in hurriedly, but actually worked out well as events were entertaining to watch and cars were identifiable with what you could buy in the showroom. One or two decent drivers cut their teeth in these too.
As cars evolved into WRC missiles, they seemed to lose some of the spectacle of a standard-looking, near-production model* on the limit through a stage. WRC was more clinical now, a little like the efficiency of F1: fast, but somehow less spectacular. With evolution they have become faster even than the Gp. B cars, but with launch control, anti-lag and paddle-shift gearboxes they must be less demanding to drive. (*I know they weren't standard, but at least they looked like they were)
I'm afraid to say that my level of interest decreased as this evolution happened: I'll maybe watch a little of Wales Rally GB on the telly, whereas I used to track the whole route and take in 3-4 stages, day and night, in the eighties and nineties.
Slightly OT, but does anyone remember the Network Q RAC Rally,1996? That year it had been dropped off the WRC (along with Monte Carlo) and many works' teams didn't bother. Not so Skoda, who fielded Stig Blomqvist - then 50 years old - in a 1600cc Felicia Kit Car. It snowed, and the original Stig went on to finish 3rd overall, behind a Celica GT4 and an Impreza 555. He was only 15 mins off the total time of the leader, and 7 mins ahead of his nearest class rival.
Weird happenings in rallying produce unexpected outcomes.
My earliest memories are of Mk11 Escorts at crazy angles, driven the likes of Roger Clark, Hannu Mikkola etc. Then along came the Gp. B monsters, led by the Audi quattro, which changed the landscape somewhat. Gp. B was untenable, however, and - as Jamie alludes to - there were too many incidents to be ignored, although in truth some of that was down to crowd control.
Gp. A was ushered in hurriedly, but actually worked out well as events were entertaining to watch and cars were identifiable with what you could buy in the showroom. One or two decent drivers cut their teeth in these too.
As cars evolved into WRC missiles, they seemed to lose some of the spectacle of a standard-looking, near-production model* on the limit through a stage. WRC was more clinical now, a little like the efficiency of F1: fast, but somehow less spectacular. With evolution they have become faster even than the Gp. B cars, but with launch control, anti-lag and paddle-shift gearboxes they must be less demanding to drive. (*I know they weren't standard, but at least they looked like they were)
I'm afraid to say that my level of interest decreased as this evolution happened: I'll maybe watch a little of Wales Rally GB on the telly, whereas I used to track the whole route and take in 3-4 stages, day and night, in the eighties and nineties.
Slightly OT, but does anyone remember the Network Q RAC Rally,1996? That year it had been dropped off the WRC (along with Monte Carlo) and many works' teams didn't bother. Not so Skoda, who fielded Stig Blomqvist - then 50 years old - in a 1600cc Felicia Kit Car. It snowed, and the original Stig went on to finish 3rd overall, behind a Celica GT4 and an Impreza 555. He was only 15 mins off the total time of the leader, and 7 mins ahead of his nearest class rival.
Weird happenings in rallying produce unexpected outcomes.
Turbobanana said:
Slightly OT, but does anyone remember the Network Q RAC Rally,1996? That year it had been dropped off the WRC (along with Monte Carlo) and many works' teams didn't bother. Not so Skoda, who fielded Stig Blomqvist - then 50 years old - in a 1600cc Felicia Kit Car. It snowed, and the original Stig went on to finish 3rd overall, behind a Celica GT4 and an Impreza 555. He was only 15 mins off the total time of the leader, and 7 mins ahead of his nearest class rival.
Weird happenings in rallying produce unexpected outcomes.
Was this the same event that at Chatsworth there were quite a few crashed out?Weird happenings in rallying produce unexpected outcomes.
Found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt_2jM6Px_s
Nice of the writers of the article to engage with the chat, thanks.
48 this year and a huge fan of rallying, involved with rallies but unfortunately not as a competitor.
Unfortunately I feel in recent years things have become too sterile and fear that the days for rallying may be numbered.
48 this year and a huge fan of rallying, involved with rallies but unfortunately not as a competitor.
Unfortunately I feel in recent years things have become too sterile and fear that the days for rallying may be numbered.
A little known fact is that the Sierra RS Cosworth was actually homologated as a group B car before it became a Group A one!
This was done so that it could rally in the Securicor challenge, which started well before the required 5000 units had been finalised so it could be signed off as a Group A car.
This was done so that it could rally in the Securicor challenge, which started well before the required 5000 units had been finalised so it could be signed off as a Group A car.
soxboy said:
Was this the same event that at Chatsworth there were quite a few crashed out?
Found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt_2jM6Px_s
I believe so, yes. Seem to recall Gwyndaf Evans doing something similar in an Escort. Found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt_2jM6Px_s
I was at Clocaenog, I think: it was bloody freezing!
JarkleTGC said:
I wrote the article so I may as well field some of the queries.
... I was merely trying to convey how unforeseen results could be scored by unfancied car & driver combos in the years immediately following the category’s sudden promotion to the top of the rallying world.
Err, maybe you should have titled it to reflect that instead then? Just a thought.... I was merely trying to convey how unforeseen results could be scored by unfancied car & driver combos in the years immediately following the category’s sudden promotion to the top of the rallying world.
And for what its worth, I bought a 22B (so put my money where my mouth is) due to my love for rallying. Sorry if it annoys people, but its my opinion that the years prior are nothing but a Bermudas Triangle as far as I'm concerned, other than the Group B monsters. And no, I'm not 18, I'm in my late 40's, and was around for much of that period. I just thought it was s
t.big_rob_sydney said:
Err, maybe you should have titled it to reflect that instead then? Just a thought.
And for what its worth, I bought a 22B (so put my money where my mouth is) due to my love for rallying. Sorry if it annoys people, but its my opinion that the years prior are nothing but a Bermudas Triangle as far as I'm concerned, other than the Group B monsters. And no, I'm not 18, I'm in my late 40's, and was around for much of that period. I just thought it was st.
Blimey, seems a tad aggressive for what was a fairly trivial miss-titling. The piece was originally written for my page where there’s a certain amount of assumed knowledge which is why I was slightly taken aback to find a degree of ho-ha on here.And for what its worth, I bought a 22B (so put my money where my mouth is) due to my love for rallying. Sorry if it annoys people, but its my opinion that the years prior are nothing but a Bermudas Triangle as far as I'm concerned, other than the Group B monsters. And no, I'm not 18, I'm in my late 40's, and was around for much of that period. I just thought it was s
t.Anyway, I’ve put my hands up to it being a less than perfect title, I guess you’ll have to live with it
Also seems a shame to miss out on generations of fascinating rally cars merely as they don’t fit into your late ‘90s, early World Rally Car bracket, but hey, that’s you’re lookout and preference I guess.
Edited by JarkleTGC on Thursday 27th September 19:37
big_rob_sydney said:
JarkleTGC said:
I wrote the article so I may as well field some of the queries.
... I was merely trying to convey how unforeseen results could be scored by unfancied car & driver combos in the years immediately following the category’s sudden promotion to the top of the rallying world.
Err, maybe you should have titled it to reflect that instead then? Just a thought.... I was merely trying to convey how unforeseen results could be scored by unfancied car & driver combos in the years immediately following the category’s sudden promotion to the top of the rallying world.
And for what its worth, I bought a 22B (so put my money where my mouth is) due to my love for rallying. Sorry if it annoys people, but its my opinion that the years prior are nothing but a Bermudas Triangle as far as I'm concerned, other than the Group B monsters. And no, I'm not 18, I'm in my late 40's, and was around for much of that period. I just thought it was s
t.Edited by Turbobanana on Thursday 27th September 20:36
JMF894 said:
I always found it ironic that the cars that followed Group B were actually quicker in the end
Think Carlos Sainz in his Celica................
It should be no surprise really. They were factory teams all out to win. All Group B had was raw grunt compared to later years. 5-6 years down the line tyres, suspension and transmissions were that much more advanced, the engines were above 400 bhp and a properly honed generation of Group A cars had arrived. Think Carlos Sainz in his Celica................
I remember Kankkunen being interview in the 90s. He said FWD cars would be faster than the HF4x4 or 8v Integrale in all conditions at that point.
Utterly brilliant!
For me Group A was a genuine golden age for Rallying and Touring car racing. I know the manufacturers complained bitterly about high homologation numbers and associated costs but 'we' the purchasing public finally got tangible benefit from racing. The price of entry to decent bang for buck became vastly more affordable.
'89 Porsche Carrera 3.2 230hp/1300kg = $110,000 AUD
'89 Lagacy RS 217hp/1355kg = $37,950 AUD
Of course, quality for buck is a different equation entirely...
For me Group A was a genuine golden age for Rallying and Touring car racing. I know the manufacturers complained bitterly about high homologation numbers and associated costs but 'we' the purchasing public finally got tangible benefit from racing. The price of entry to decent bang for buck became vastly more affordable.
'89 Porsche Carrera 3.2 230hp/1300kg = $110,000 AUD
'89 Lagacy RS 217hp/1355kg = $37,950 AUD
Of course, quality for buck is a different equation entirely...
RuntyMuz said:
Utterly brilliant!
For me Group A was a genuine golden age for Rallying and Touring car racing. I know the manufacturers complained bitterly about high homologation numbers and associated costs but 'we' the purchasing public finally got tangible benefit from racing. The price of entry to decent bang for buck became vastly more affordable.
'89 Porsche Carrera 3.2 230hp/1300kg = $110,000 AUD
'89 Lagacy RS 217hp/1355kg = $37,950 AUD
Of course, quality for buck is a different equation entirely...
The old Legacies are great, quite a few of them still rallying here in NZ - there is a Classic 4wd / Group A class for them and the Galant VR4s etc.For me Group A was a genuine golden age for Rallying and Touring car racing. I know the manufacturers complained bitterly about high homologation numbers and associated costs but 'we' the purchasing public finally got tangible benefit from racing. The price of entry to decent bang for buck became vastly more affordable.
'89 Porsche Carrera 3.2 230hp/1300kg = $110,000 AUD
'89 Lagacy RS 217hp/1355kg = $37,950 AUD
Of course, quality for buck is a different equation entirely...
DSC_7675 by Ben, on Flickr Turbobanana said:
I feel lucky to be old enough (50 tomorrow - woohoo!) to have enjoyed rallying from the mid-late seventies through to the present day.
My earliest memories are of Mk11 Escorts at crazy angles, driven the likes of Roger Clark, Hannu Mikkola etc. Then along came the Gp. B monsters, led by the Audi quattro, which changed the landscape somewhat. Gp. B was untenable, however, and - as Jamie alludes to - there were too many incidents to be ignored, although in truth some of that was down to crowd control.
Gp. A was ushered in hurriedly, but actually worked out well as events were entertaining to watch and cars were identifiable with what you could buy in the showroom. One or two decent drivers cut their teeth in these too.
As cars evolved into WRC missiles, they seemed to lose some of the spectacle of a standard-looking, near-production model* on the limit through a stage. WRC was more clinical now, a little like the efficiency of F1: fast, but somehow less spectacular. With evolution they have become faster even than the Gp. B cars, but with launch control, anti-lag and paddle-shift gearboxes they must be less demanding to drive. (*I know they weren't standard, but at least they looked like they were)
I'm afraid to say that my level of interest decreased as this evolution happened: I'll maybe watch a little of Wales Rally GB on the telly, whereas I used to track the whole route and take in 3-4 stages, day and night, in the eighties and nineties.
Slightly OT, but does anyone remember the Network Q RAC Rally,1996? That year it had been dropped off the WRC (along with Monte Carlo) and many works' teams didn't bother. Not so Skoda, who fielded Stig Blomqvist - then 50 years old - in a 1600cc Felicia Kit Car. It snowed, and the original Stig went on to finish 3rd overall, behind a Celica GT4 and an Impreza 555. He was only 15 mins off the total time of the leader, and 7 mins ahead of his nearest class rival.
Weird happenings in rallying produce unexpected outcomes.
Armin Schwartz won it and Martin Brundle entered as i recall. My earliest memories are of Mk11 Escorts at crazy angles, driven the likes of Roger Clark, Hannu Mikkola etc. Then along came the Gp. B monsters, led by the Audi quattro, which changed the landscape somewhat. Gp. B was untenable, however, and - as Jamie alludes to - there were too many incidents to be ignored, although in truth some of that was down to crowd control.
Gp. A was ushered in hurriedly, but actually worked out well as events were entertaining to watch and cars were identifiable with what you could buy in the showroom. One or two decent drivers cut their teeth in these too.
As cars evolved into WRC missiles, they seemed to lose some of the spectacle of a standard-looking, near-production model* on the limit through a stage. WRC was more clinical now, a little like the efficiency of F1: fast, but somehow less spectacular. With evolution they have become faster even than the Gp. B cars, but with launch control, anti-lag and paddle-shift gearboxes they must be less demanding to drive. (*I know they weren't standard, but at least they looked like they were)
I'm afraid to say that my level of interest decreased as this evolution happened: I'll maybe watch a little of Wales Rally GB on the telly, whereas I used to track the whole route and take in 3-4 stages, day and night, in the eighties and nineties.
Slightly OT, but does anyone remember the Network Q RAC Rally,1996? That year it had been dropped off the WRC (along with Monte Carlo) and many works' teams didn't bother. Not so Skoda, who fielded Stig Blomqvist - then 50 years old - in a 1600cc Felicia Kit Car. It snowed, and the original Stig went on to finish 3rd overall, behind a Celica GT4 and an Impreza 555. He was only 15 mins off the total time of the leader, and 7 mins ahead of his nearest class rival.
Weird happenings in rallying produce unexpected outcomes.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff