RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender - first sighting!
Discussion
It's going to end up another tarts handbag of a car. They might as well forget the Defender brand altogether unless they pull the stops out to blow the likes of the Hilux out of the water, which they won't. They have or had the expertise to build a good, off road workhorse but they couldn't make it competitive enough on price, spec or reliability so everyone that actually needed that sort of vehicle buggered off to Japan for one. All they are left with now is cars for school run mums.
Fortunately for them, it's fashionable to have a 2 tonne 4wd car to take the kids to school, but fashions change. When it does inevitably change LR will be history because nobody that actually needs a 4wd for doing 4wd type things will tolerate what passes for reliability in Solihull and in any case, JLR only make cars, not workhorses.
Fortunately for them, it's fashionable to have a 2 tonne 4wd car to take the kids to school, but fashions change. When it does inevitably change LR will be history because nobody that actually needs a 4wd for doing 4wd type things will tolerate what passes for reliability in Solihull and in any case, JLR only make cars, not workhorses.
I've always felt the old Defender looks equally "in-place" dented and battered in a Somerset field as it does parked outside Buckingham palace; a truly classless vehicle.
That status comes with 67years of history (much of which was unrivalled in its class) which I suspect will not be the case with the new Defender.
I'm sure it will be outstanding offroad, do everything the old car could and more....but it won't capture the heart like the old one has for millions of people.
That status comes with 67years of history (much of which was unrivalled in its class) which I suspect will not be the case with the new Defender.
I'm sure it will be outstanding offroad, do everything the old car could and more....but it won't capture the heart like the old one has for millions of people.
Max_Torque said:
actually the original LR, the leaf sprung Series 1 had pretty poor articulation, especially at the back as it was more designed for load carrying that being 'soft n flexy"!
The early coil sprung Rangies that donated there chassis to the defender in the very early 1980's did have good articulation, because they had no anti-roll bars at all, and very soft, low rate long springs (because ride comfort for the passengers had taken a leading role in that platform. However, by the early 1990's the appearance of fixed anti-roll bars and stiffer springs to improve road manners started to knock that articulation right back. By the mid 2000's, a typical Defender actually had fairly poor articulation, and not been expensive enough to get the clever variable rate ARBs of it's posher cousins, and only having a basic traction control system, the last of the line defenders were (when shod with like for like tyres) actually worse off road ultimately than the RR and Disco! (The difference of course, is that when you, inevitably cock up and smash the sills or tail down into a rock or tree stump, in a defender the resulting dents add "character" but in a £60k RR they knock a massive amount off it's resale value.........)
The Ultimate off road ability so beloved of people with beards from Barnsley is more a function in a classic defender of being able to use it, heavily, off road without doing too much damage, and having things like steel bumpers and cross members you can get a high lift jack under to get you unstuck etc.......
Even with ARB's live axle RR's and Defenders are still highly capable off road machines. And still flex quite a lot compared to the IFS/IRS counter parts.The early coil sprung Rangies that donated there chassis to the defender in the very early 1980's did have good articulation, because they had no anti-roll bars at all, and very soft, low rate long springs (because ride comfort for the passengers had taken a leading role in that platform. However, by the early 1990's the appearance of fixed anti-roll bars and stiffer springs to improve road manners started to knock that articulation right back. By the mid 2000's, a typical Defender actually had fairly poor articulation, and not been expensive enough to get the clever variable rate ARBs of it's posher cousins, and only having a basic traction control system, the last of the line defenders were (when shod with like for like tyres) actually worse off road ultimately than the RR and Disco! (The difference of course, is that when you, inevitably cock up and smash the sills or tail down into a rock or tree stump, in a defender the resulting dents add "character" but in a £60k RR they knock a massive amount off it's resale value.........)
The Ultimate off road ability so beloved of people with beards from Barnsley is more a function in a classic defender of being able to use it, heavily, off road without doing too much damage, and having things like steel bumpers and cross members you can get a high lift jack under to get you unstuck etc.......
But it's more the behaviour of lives axles off road than anything. As one wheel is pushed up, it pushes the opposite wheel downward.
Land Rovers cross linked air suspension is very clever and tries to simulate this to good effect. But it still isn't as good and comes at the expense (pun intended) of a much more costly suspension setup, much higher complexity, more components and in general higher wear rates and more frequent maintenance.
Series 1's actually flex quite well.
Here is my live axle ARB equipped Range Rover. It also flexes fine.
I do agree about the bumpers and not taking damage. Something Jeep and Suzuki seem to understand. And helps to avoid things like this on modern LR's.
matbat said:
That status comes with 67years of history (much of which was unrivalled in its class) which I suspect will not be the case with the new Defender.
b
ks is it unrivalled. When was the last time you saw a Defender on the news with a rocket launcher bolted in the back? When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover. Nanook said:
Willy Nilly said:
Fortunately for them, it's fashionable to have a 2 tonne 4wd car to take the kids to school, but fashions change. When it does inevitably change LR will be history because nobody that actually needs a 4wd for doing 4wd type things will tolerate what passes for reliability in Solihull and in any case, JLR only make cars, not workhorses.
Guess that the kerb weight of a 110 Defender is?Go on, guess!
Willy Nilly said:
matbat said:
That status comes with 67years of history (much of which was unrivalled in its class) which I suspect will not be the case with the new Defender.
bks is it unrivalled. When was the last time you saw a Defender on the news with a rocket launcher bolted in the back? When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover. Willy Nilly said:
When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover.
Seemed good enough for our armed forces...300bhp/ton said:
Not without live axles it won't be.
A Defender without lives axles or a ladder chassis = instant FAIL!
A shame, but predictable in this day and age of fashion icon Land Rovers for those uninterested in 4x4's, off roading or utility vehicles.
Indeed, this looks more like a Defender Sport, or similar equivalent model.A Defender without lives axles or a ladder chassis = instant FAIL!
A shame, but predictable in this day and age of fashion icon Land Rovers for those uninterested in 4x4's, off roading or utility vehicles.
matbat said:
Willy Nilly said:
matbat said:
That status comes with 67years of history (much of which was unrivalled in its class) which I suspect will not be the case with the new Defender.
bks is it unrivalled. When was the last time you saw a Defender on the news with a rocket launcher bolted in the back? When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover. Willy Nilly said:
When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover.
Seemed good enough for our armed forces...The basic design and idea of the Defender was good, but they were never developed beyond what they had to do to keep selling them and were expensive, unreliable and uncomfortable.
Land Rover simply will no compete with the Hilux, not now, not ever.
300bhp/ton said:
Max_Torque said:
actually the original LR, the leaf sprung Series 1 had pretty poor articulation, especially at the back as it was more designed for load carrying that being 'soft n flexy"!
The early coil sprung Rangies that donated there chassis to the defender in the very early 1980's did have good articulation, because they had no anti-roll bars at all, and very soft, low rate long springs (because ride comfort for the passengers had taken a leading role in that platform. However, by the early 1990's the appearance of fixed anti-roll bars and stiffer springs to improve road manners started to knock that articulation right back. By the mid 2000's, a typical Defender actually had fairly poor articulation, and not been expensive enough to get the clever variable rate ARBs of it's posher cousins, and only having a basic traction control system, the last of the line defenders were (when shod with like for like tyres) actually worse off road ultimately than the RR and Disco! (The difference of course, is that when you, inevitably cock up and smash the sills or tail down into a rock or tree stump, in a defender the resulting dents add "character" but in a £60k RR they knock a massive amount off it's resale value.........)
The Ultimate off road ability so beloved of people with beards from Barnsley is more a function in a classic defender of being able to use it, heavily, off road without doing too much damage, and having things like steel bumpers and cross members you can get a high lift jack under to get you unstuck etc.......
Even with ARB's live axle RR's and Defenders are still highly capable off road machines. And still flex quite a lot compared to the IFS/IRS counter parts.The early coil sprung Rangies that donated there chassis to the defender in the very early 1980's did have good articulation, because they had no anti-roll bars at all, and very soft, low rate long springs (because ride comfort for the passengers had taken a leading role in that platform. However, by the early 1990's the appearance of fixed anti-roll bars and stiffer springs to improve road manners started to knock that articulation right back. By the mid 2000's, a typical Defender actually had fairly poor articulation, and not been expensive enough to get the clever variable rate ARBs of it's posher cousins, and only having a basic traction control system, the last of the line defenders were (when shod with like for like tyres) actually worse off road ultimately than the RR and Disco! (The difference of course, is that when you, inevitably cock up and smash the sills or tail down into a rock or tree stump, in a defender the resulting dents add "character" but in a £60k RR they knock a massive amount off it's resale value.........)
The Ultimate off road ability so beloved of people with beards from Barnsley is more a function in a classic defender of being able to use it, heavily, off road without doing too much damage, and having things like steel bumpers and cross members you can get a high lift jack under to get you unstuck etc.......
But it's more the behaviour of lives axles off road than anything. As one wheel is pushed up, it pushes the opposite wheel downward.
Land Rovers cross linked air suspension is very clever and tries to simulate this to good effect. But it still isn't as good and comes at the expense (pun intended) of a much more costly suspension setup, much higher complexity, more components and in general higher wear rates and more frequent maintenance.
I'd say adjustable ride height for both comfort and load balancing, better road manners and good grip (all allowed with air suspension) would be more of a benefit.
Krikkit said:
One thing I would question is whether axle articulation is actually that important to even the bulk of its very serious users? Alright it matters at a pay&play day, but do the usual scenarios of rutted muddy fields really require all that much?
I'd say adjustable ride height for both comfort and load balancing, better road manners and good grip (all allowed with air suspension) would be more of a benefit.
I don't think it's that important. Look at where the bulk of the Jap pickups now ply their trade and it's farms and building sites. You certainly need some axle articulation but not the kind shown in 300's pictures. A tenant had a new Ranger at work and I honestly think that the off roadyness of it makes it less useful because it's made the vehicle so big and thus more difficult to put anything in the bed, never mind get it out. All for a very small percentage of gain in usability. They perhaps should have that on offer as a more hardcore choice but for most people most of the time something lower would be more usefull. I'd say adjustable ride height for both comfort and load balancing, better road manners and good grip (all allowed with air suspension) would be more of a benefit.
I have had the privilege of driving a new range rover sport at one of the land rover sponsored experience days and I will say if the defenders have the same active locking differentials as the RR sport then you won't care about the axle articulation it will drag its self over almost anything. Don't get me wrong I love old land rovers, I have two series 3s and a 110 defender but you can't live in the past, live axles are pretty crude, leaf springs even more so, I get they are reliable but sometimes you have to re-invent the wheel or you end up competing with a product that has no differentiating factors in comparison to competition other than a badge and likely a price premium.
The Key I think to the new defenders success or not will be if it can tow 3 tonnes as currently to my knowledge neither the Hilux or L200 can do that. Cheaply replaceable body panels would also be a distinct benefit when inevitably a cow takes a dislike to it.
Also I should have said above the RRS I had a shot of was on road tyres and quite happily dragged itself through all sorts of muddy holes and up hills, can't wait to see what this thing will do with proper off-road focused tyres!
The Key I think to the new defenders success or not will be if it can tow 3 tonnes as currently to my knowledge neither the Hilux or L200 can do that. Cheaply replaceable body panels would also be a distinct benefit when inevitably a cow takes a dislike to it.
Also I should have said above the RRS I had a shot of was on road tyres and quite happily dragged itself through all sorts of muddy holes and up hills, can't wait to see what this thing will do with proper off-road focused tyres!
Edited by MK1RS Bruce on Tuesday 2nd October 17:47
Krikkit said:
One thing I would question is whether axle articulation is actually that important to even the bulk of its very serious users? Alright it matters at a pay&play day, but do the usual scenarios of rutted muddy fields really require all that much?
I'd say adjustable ride height for both comfort and load balancing, better road manners and good grip (all allowed with air suspension) would be more of a benefit.
For very serious off roaders, then axle articulation IS important because it softens the outer edges of the envelope when a cross axle situation occurs. Without it, you are lifting wheels at which point you have zero spring rate, which means when that wheel comes back down to the ground it does so with rapidly with a bump (leading to loss of traction or even a roll over in-extremis)I'd say adjustable ride height for both comfort and load balancing, better road manners and good grip (all allowed with air suspension) would be more of a benefit.
But we are talking terrain that would be considered very serious tbh. In most cases, what matters are the tyres that are fitted, and here is the biggest compromise that is difficult to solve, because a good off road tyre really is diametrically opposite of the design of a good on-road one. Something like a D4 gets stuck in a wet grass field because it's on road biased tyres and not because it is 'poor' off road persay!
300bhp/ton said:
But it's more the behaviour of lives axles off road than anything. As one wheel is pushed up, it pushes the opposite wheel downward.
er, IFS also does this. In fact, any suspension system where the roll centre is below the CofG does this to some degree(Beam axles have very high roll centres, which does indeed provide a greater load distribution, but the fundamental cross axle spring rate is typically the biggest affector)
300bhp/ton said:
I hope someone from JLR is reading this thread.
For the record... people who really want a Defender want something like this, just built by Land Rover...
There are already plenty of posing and lifestyle vehicles in the Land Rover range, we don't need another and certainly don't need the Defender name literally dragged through the mud on some unworthy Chelsea tractor.
For the record... people who really want a Defender want something like this, just built by Land Rover...
There are already plenty of posing and lifestyle vehicles in the Land Rover range, we don't need another and certainly don't need the Defender name literally dragged through the mud on some unworthy Chelsea tractor.
Exactly.. JLR have between the Land Rover and Range Rover brands have perhaps one of the biggest range of semi off-roaders of all brands. There is no excuse to dilute one of the (if not THE) iconic names in off road vehicles..
This needs to be an off-road utility vehicle, with the focus of off-road. If they screw this up, they'll never live it down.
I think this looks good for what is a highly disguised mule, short overhangs, not to wide, proper sidewall to the wheels, fundamentals are there.
Never ceases to amaze me how much people love to criticize new Landrover products with little to no knowledge of the vehicle itself. I have an 1987 90 which I have had forever along with much newer ones and discovery 2's etc, if this new defender has 80% of the ability of my old 90 but can cruise at 85 quietly, then its vastly more capable than most people would ever need or really want.
300 is right re live axle vs IFS articulation, and its great to have it on tap with live axles but in reality a very good IFS setup can flex to say 75% ish of a live axles articulation which is more than enough for most. Regards plastic bumpers, a standard defender bumper will bend as will a rear x-member if you end up in a muddle just have to drive accordingly or modify ARB, winch bumpers etc.
Look forward greatly to seeing more info on this and so long as LR can keep the price in the realms of reality i.e £28k ish + give decent reliability then they will sell very well, which can only be a good thing.
Never ceases to amaze me how much people love to criticize new Landrover products with little to no knowledge of the vehicle itself. I have an 1987 90 which I have had forever along with much newer ones and discovery 2's etc, if this new defender has 80% of the ability of my old 90 but can cruise at 85 quietly, then its vastly more capable than most people would ever need or really want.
300 is right re live axle vs IFS articulation, and its great to have it on tap with live axles but in reality a very good IFS setup can flex to say 75% ish of a live axles articulation which is more than enough for most. Regards plastic bumpers, a standard defender bumper will bend as will a rear x-member if you end up in a muddle just have to drive accordingly or modify ARB, winch bumpers etc.
Look forward greatly to seeing more info on this and so long as LR can keep the price in the realms of reality i.e £28k ish + give decent reliability then they will sell very well, which can only be a good thing.
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