RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender - first sighting!

[NomduJour]

troika said:

LR will never compete with Toyota because they can’t build a reliable vehicle, at any price.

You people need to step away from the internet - the only time I’ve ever been let down by a Land Rover product was my own fault. Why on earth would I buy a demonstrably inferior vehicle because people on the internet (who have generally never sat in either) tell me they’re magically unbreakable?

[DonkeyApple]

Amber_Riddle said:

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Amber Riddle. I had one of those this morning. Didn’t drink enough water yesterday.

[motul1974]

REALLY?.....people move on and get over it. The defender as we knew it is dead, and if we're beong honest, the defenders most of us had a passion for died many years ago. The latest ones being TOO dear and a lifestyle vehicle rather than a rough/tough go anywhere vehicles we think so stary eyed about.

LR only want the short term monies made by their current range, there's no minds eye to the future of the brand, just the here and now.....blame the accountant!

Also.....let's not forget they were never the most reliable of vehicles....quite the opposite often..and don't get me started of the over priced pxxs poor but pretty new models.

I for one are looking forward to the new model.....it's just I'm expecting to be disappointed.

Rant over.

[motul1974]

REALLY?.....people move on and get over it. The defender as we knew it is dead, and if we're beong honest, the defenders most of us had a passion for died many years ago. The latest ones being TOO dear and a lifestyle vehicle rather than a rough/tough go anywhere vehicles we think so stary eyed about.

LR only want the short term monies made by their current range, there's no minds eye to the future of the brand, just the here and now.....blame the accountant!

Also.....let's not forget they were never the most reliable of vehicles....quite the opposite often..and don't get me started of the over priced pxxs poor but pretty new models.

I for one are looking forward to the new model.....it's just I'm expecting to be disappointed.

Rant over.

[Plug Life]

Bodo said:

the accessories list will be interesting. beside the already available spray-on mud, there will be a plastic replica spare wheel, housing the tyre inflation spray, that matches the bonnet. the self-adhesive adventure decoration weighs only 230grams.

+ foil wrap in dip-galvanized optics to imitate the original land rovers body steel cappings. with pre-1962 3d round head rivet look. not the later pop-rivets, that were changed from aluminium to steel in 1989, and then give that rust stain over the body panels.
+ a downloadable app to activate and tune headlight and wiper flickering. costs less than an original iphone connection cable.
+ speaking of tech, we will also enjoy the app for strange noises coming from offside front wheel, when turning right. all authentic via the interiors speakers. all tunable. for a little more, the app will entend to strange engine noises as well.

+ water nozzles inside the cabin around the windshield and doors to simulate water ingress.

[troika]

NomduJour said:

You people need to step away from the internet - the only time I’ve ever been let down by a Land Rover product was my own fault. Why on earth would I buy a demonstrably inferior vehicle because people on the internet (who have generally never sat in either) tell me they’re magically unbreakable?

I’ve owned both, thanks. One brand of which I will never buy again, the other I would in a heartbeat. You may have been lucky but you’re not seriously telling me any LR product is as remotely reliable or as well built as a LC?! My fathers year old DS needs a new engine FFS. Balancer shaft issue, one of the many built in faults. Told him not to buy it but his other half liked the way it looks. Well, she’s got plenty of time to look at it on the drive as they can’t do it for over 6 weeks! Absolute jokers.

[mmcd87]

oilit said:

If I were jlr reading this, i would close the project down and move on - the negativity is bizarre. Agreed its not the same as the old defender - but get over it - the new mini wasn't the same as the old one.

If you want to customize something go buy an old version of the model - the vast majority will be used by people who tow horseboxes /livestock trailers and go hunting/shooting and/or visit private schools I suspect.

How many of the true off roader crew actually buy brand new vehicles (not withstanding the utility companies who have gone down the Isuzu/toyota route now) ?

I don't post often but I agree with you. It's shocking how negative people are overall nowadays, and how many accountants, engineers and marketing professionals are members on Pistonheads. Every time something new comes out the keyboard warriers come out and slate it.

It's going to be a success if they can keep the price realistic and it's reasonably rugged enough for 80% of what the old Defender does. The lack of extreme off road ability is offset by better on road manners and thus they will sell much, much more of them. Don't forget that half the reason the old Defender was viable for so long was because it became 'cool' and started to sell as such. Less of the buyers for them used them for what they were originally designed for.

[AC123]

We used to have 4 defenders on the farm, now have 2, 1 Amarok and 1 Navara.

Pickups are far comfier, & great auto boxes but not quite as good off road. Rare they are ever tested to that capability though. New Navara comes in at about £22k fully loaded, I'd be amazed if the new Defender can be as competitive.

[Fire99]

Harry_523 said:

The defender was never a Jimny competitor, much more a jeep wrangler competitor.

And lets be clear, the Jeep now starts from £45k in the UK, for a ladder chassis and all the compromises that goes with it. The defender will likely be just as capable off-road (probably more, given the extra articulation and under-axle ground clearance independent suspension gives), way more capable on road, and not kill all its occupants in a small crash, for about the same money.

Please stop banging on about the bloody Jimny.....

It's not about being a direct Jimny competitor, it's about the relative comparisons in Suzuki bringing out a new model but electing to keep relatively close to the original remit.

So in the context of the discussion, the Jimny comparison is very valid. And yes Jeep are keeping the Wrangler relatively true its original theme and is all the better for it, for brand identity, when it's bigger brothers (Grand Cherokee etc) have ditched the live axles ... So either Jeep (and Suzuki with the Jimny) are idiots for not making the Wrangler with independant suspension or there is reasoning behind the 'madness'

[smilo996]

Looks like it will be as big a leap as the Defender was when it finished production back to the Series.
Knuckle draggers are already complaing whist they fit: new seats, soundproofing, new dashes, lifts, better wheels, tyres, engines, wiring, fuel tanks, lights, panels, windows and a million other things to the original one.

I hope they do a relatively basic model as well as the inevitable curb climbers.

[ivantate]

Looks interesting. LR making the most of what they have, will please most but enter a standard product cycle.


Rear overhang reduced to push people into a Discovery if they need space.


Jeep has guaranteed 10x the sales mostly into a market that likes to use more fuel. No taxation on emissions and also have comparable sized CarUV's in the range.

[NomduJour]

AC123 said:

New Navara comes in at about £22k fully loaded, I'd be amazed if the new Defender can be as competitive.

Navaras go up to about £32k with the VAT, most expensive Amaroks are getting on for £40k, Wranglers start at £42k etc.

[llcoolmac]

troika said:

NomduJour said:

The Defender was an anachronism, in the same way the 70 Series Land Cruiser is, despite being developed in a way the Defender wasn’t - hence why it’s about to die and not be replaced. The 150 Land Cruisers we get in Europe are effectively Discovery rivals, and they are crude old lorries by comparison (as are the 200s - the reason why nobody bought them over here); the utility side of things is where the Hilux comes in - and the bottom end of that market is something JLR are never going to be part of nowadays.

LC’s may be ‘crude’ compared to a Disco / RR, but the key difference is that they work. My LC120 didn’t fail once in 160K miles. Neither has anyone else’s LC or HiLux that I know. Let’s face it, people only buy LR for the perceived image, sponsor the rugby etc etc. I’d take a 150/200 over any of them. LR will never compete with Toyota because they can’t build a reliable vehicle, at any price.

There isn't a reason in the world anyone with sense would change a 200/100 series for a Range Rover. Within 2 miles of my rural house there are 5 100 series Land cruisers and one 80 series. The average age is about 15 years and they are all hard working vehicles. No one has any intention of changing them. Our own one has 475,000 miles on it. I don't think we ever even contemplate the thought of it not starting. There is never even a hint that something might fail and leave us stranded. Obviously I could but it is so unlikely that we don't ever think about it. You couldn't even say that about brand new Range Rover or Land Rover.

I only really know two people with Discos and both of those have ended in engine failure. Anyone with a defender loves them but they generally acknowledge they aren't a good vehicle.

When people buy a Amazon they drive them until death, the Prado is a damn good vehicle too.

[2xChevrons]

Fire99 said:

It's not about being a direct Jimny competitor, it's about the relative comparisons in Suzuki bringing out a new model but electing to keep relatively close to the original remit.

So in the context of the discussion, the Jimny comparison is very valid. And yes Jeep are keeping the Wrangler relatively true its original theme and is all the better for it, for brand identity, when it's bigger brothers (Grand Cherokee etc) have ditched the live axles ... So either Jeep (and Suzuki with the Jimny) are idiots for not making the Wrangler with independant suspension or there is reasoning behind the 'madness'

Their reasoning is that they have identified market niches which are big enough to make such a vehicle (utilitarian, off-road focussed, live-axled etc.) viable to produce and they have the infrastructure in place to exploit it.

The Jimny has the kei-size 4x4 utility market pretty much sewn up throughout Japan and SE Asia, plus pockets of Australia and Africa, plus the Mediterranean-Island-Holiday-Hire-Car market and the small (but useful) market in Western Europe, be that as a genuine utility vehicle or as a 'lifestyle' product. The old Jimny sold 10-15,000 examples each year in the EU and just under 50,000 examples globally in 2017.

The Wrangler has the US car market (330 million people) largely to itself and for 30 years has carved out a niche as the opposite of the Jimny - predominantly a lifestyle/recreational off-roader that some people do use for proper 4x4 utility work. FCA sold 190,000 Wrangers in the USA along in 2017.

The Defender trucked along at around 20,000 sales globally in the 1990s and by the 2010s this was down to less than 15,000.

That's Suzuki and Jeep's 'reasoning' - it's worth developing bespoke, unconventional platforms for their 4x4s because they know they can sell enough to make it worthwhile. Suzuki has nearly 50 years experience selling the Jimny in its chosen sector and its chosen markets, and Jeep has been doing the same with the Wrangler since 1986. Suzuki has dealers in the right places who know how to sell the Jimny to the people who would want to buy one, be that the Vietnamese Coast Guard or a Scottish farmer. Jeep dealers know how to sell Wranglers to Silicon Valley techbros, the suburban dad who tows a boat up to his cabin in the mountains on the weekend and the die-hard off-road enthusiast who wants to fit portal axles, air-operated diff-locks, 42-inch tyres and 14 spot lamps.

The Defender has no market. Its market as a utility vehicle was gone by 1985 and the company explicity re-focused on selling the Range Rover and Discovery to Europeans, plus what they could get out of utility companies, armies and Welsh hill farmers. And even then it never really sold - it was barely worth spending any development money on even when all its major tooling costs had been paid off decades ago. JLR doesn't have the contacts in the markets that a 'proper' Defender would be sold in, doesn't have dealers or agents in the right geographical areas and would be starting from a major disadvantage of having a negative reputation. It also doesn't have the financial clout or the volumes to develop a bespoke ladder-frame/beam-axle platform and then sell it against the likes of Toyota, Nissan and Mitsubishi.

[oldtimer2]

2xChevrons said:

The Defender has no market. Its market as a utility vehicle was gone by 1985 and the company explicity re-focused on selling the Range Rover and Discovery to Europeans, plus what they could get out of utility companies, armies and Welsh hill farmers. And even then it never really sold - it was barely worth spending any development money on even when all its major tooling costs had been paid off decades ago. JLR doesn't have the contacts in the markets that a 'proper' Defender would be sold in, doesn't have dealers or agents in the right geographical areas and would be starting from a major disadvantage of having a negative reputation. It also doesn't have the financial clout or the volumes to develop a bespoke ladder-frame/beam-axle platform and then sell it against the likes of Toyota, Nissan and Mitsubishi.

I think most of this is correct. I would add that the 90 and 100 were developed in a hurry using the Range Rover underpinnings as the basis and the series 3 body with mods and a few minor added creature comforts to help it appeal to European markets. The reason for the hurry was that many third world markets completely folded in the early 1980s - they literally ran out of cash. (It was variously known as the Mexican or Latin American debt crisis but it was much wider than that. The root cause was $40 a barrel oil). Land Rover gave evidence to a House of Lords committee that no less than fifteen of its markets stopped buying products, they even stopped buying spare parts. This compounded the problem of the lost Iran market after the revolution that deposed the Shah. Land Rover needed markets that actually had some cash to spend. That imperative drove the switch in emphasis towards solvent markets.

We know a few things about the replacement of the Defender because Land Rover spelled it all out in an Investor Day presentation in June this year. This stated it will be based on the MLA (modular longitudinal architecture), which will be shared by all new JLR products (transverse engined products have their own version). The MLA will accommodate BEV, PHEV and MHEV power units. The MHEV will be 48 volt (as announced in the new Evoque). The PHEV will be 300 volt. The ICE engines used will be based on the modular Ingenium engine architecture which will offer a choice of 3, 4 and six cylinder versions (1.5, 2.0 and 3.0 litre configurations). There will be lots of new technology. It remains to be seen what combinations of power unit, wheelbase and body type will be offered in each market. It said that the new Defender would be functional, durable, practical and offer off road expertise. It will be priced at a premium in its sector. I should add that on his opening slide to his Engineering Strategy Nick Rogers says "Disrupt or be disrupted". To me that sounded like a good starting point for his engineering presentation. Anyone expecting a return to the past will be disappointed. The BEV technology has already appeared in the Jaguar I-Pace; this has been well reviewed. It is also apparently good enough to persuade Google subsidiary Waymo to order several thousand for their driverless car programme. I for one am looking forward to seeing, buying and driving the new Defender despite the many negative remarks posted here.

[AC123]

NomduJour said:

Navaras go up to about £32k with the VAT, most expensive Amaroks are getting on for £40k, Wranglers start at £42k etc.

I expect most commercial vehicle buyers are VAT registered so that can be ignored.

Our Navara Tekna (top model) was £22k plus vat. Amarok was just under £30k plus vat from memory, again fully loaded.

2 defenders we have left are 12 and 15 plate so will be replaced at some point... in reality we don’t need anything better than the Navara so will be very interested to see where they pitch the price.

[DonkeyApple]

oldtimer2 said:

I think most of this is correct. I would add that the 90 and 100 were developed in a hurry using the Range Rover underpinnings as the basis and the series 3 body with mods and a few minor added creature comforts to help it appeal to European markets. The reason for the hurry was that many third world markets completely folded in the early 1980s - they literally ran out of cash. (It was variously known as the Mexican or Latin American debt crisis but it was much wider than that. The root cause was $40 a barrel oil). Land Rover gave evidence to a House of Lords committee that no less than fifteen of its markets stopped buying products, they even stopped buying spare parts. This compounded the problem of the lost Iran market after the revolution that deposed the Shah. Land Rover needed markets that actually had some cash to spend. That imperative drove the switch in emphasis towards solvent markets.

We know a few things about the replacement of the Defender because Land Rover spelled it all out in an Investor Day presentation in June this year. This stated it will be based on the MLA (modular longitudinal architecture), which will be shared by all new JLR products (transverse engined products have their own version). The MLA will accommodate BEV, PHEV and MHEV power units. The MHEV will be 48 volt (as announced in the new Evoque). The PHEV will be 300 volt. The ICE engines used will be based on the modular Ingenium engine architecture which will offer a choice of 3, 4 and six cylinder versions (1.5, 2.0 and 3.0 litre configurations). There will be lots of new technology. It remains to be seen what combinations of power unit, wheelbase and body type will be offered in each market. It said that the new Defender would be functional, durable, practical and offer off road expertise. It will be priced at a premium in its sector. I should add that on his opening slide to his Engineering Strategy Nick Rogers says "Disrupt or be disrupted". To me that sounded like a good starting point for his engineering presentation. Anyone expecting a return to the past will be disappointed. The BEV technology has already appeared in the Jaguar I-Pace; this has been well reviewed. It is also apparently good enough to persuade Google subsidiary Waymo to order several thousand for their driverless car programme. I for one am looking forward to seeing, buying and driving the new Defender despite the many negative remarks posted here.

When you buy a country they must buy your goods with the money you lend them. The real issue of the third world debt crisis was that Britain lost ownership of various deals to other lenders such as the US, Russia and China.

The history of Land Rover overseas sales has always been interwoven with which states the British Govt controlled/steered. It’s no coincidence that Land Rovers appeared where British loans did. And their domestic sales followed the same path of the bulk being to State controlled entities that locked out competition.

[unsprung]

dme123 said:

All moaning about reputations, beards, spotlights, and live axles is moot, it's never going to happen because it cannot happen.

[powerstroke]

NomduJour said:

You people need to step away from the internet - the only time I’ve ever been let down by a Land Rover product was my own fault. Why on earth would I buy a demonstrably inferior vehicle because people on the internet (who have generally never sat in either) tell me they’re magically unbreakable?

The cult of Landrover ,

[Harry_523]

2xChevrons said:

The OLD Defender has no market.....

The new one does though. All those people who complained about the Disco 5 when it came out "too expensive" "too rounded" "has a wonky rear door", etc. Defender is the answer, wonky door not withstanding.

Id hope it'll also be about the least "bling" new big 4x4 out there, which should appeal to everyone who looks at an X5, or that ghastly X7 and wants to vomit