RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender - first sighting!
Discussion
Tom_Spotley_When said:
Who, outside a relatively small set of enthusiasts (who wouldn't buy it new anyway) will care about whether it has live axles and a ladder chassis or not?
Will it make a difference at the local pay and play/trial? Probably.
Will the people who buy it take it to one of those events? No.
Will it have more off-road ability than 97.5% of buyers will ever need. Yes.
That's not the point. People loved and bought the defender because of what it could do, not what they needed it to do. If it's just a rebodied discovery sport it becomes a form over function car. I won't be interested. I'd say 90% of the people you see driving around in defenders won't be interested. Will it make a difference at the local pay and play/trial? Probably.
Will the people who buy it take it to one of those events? No.
Will it have more off-road ability than 97.5% of buyers will ever need. Yes.
"Oh but they'll sell more than ever". Well yes I'm sure they will. Whoopty do. Not on the level of the Kia Sportage though, which by that thinking is an even better car.
BugLebowski said:
I'm sure it will be just as good as the current crop of Land Rover SUVs at dragging itself around a 'Landrover experiece' course, but there is a difference between being capable of going off road, and being good at going off road.
So you have actually been on a landrover experience day with the new models to see what they are capable of or are you just guessing?? either way you should go along some day and have anther go, see what they can do then have a look at the tyres they are running. Yep normal road tyres but they can still climb mountains and wade through rivers straight out of the factory.
If you want an old defender then buy one, there are plenty to be had, if you want to try your hand at terrorism then get yourself an old hilux
but you can't knock their ability offroad, OUT OF THE FACTORY they are unbeatable.
MK1RS Bruce said:
So you have actually been on a landrover experience day with the new models to see what they are capable of or are you just guessing?? either way you should go along some day and have anther go, see what they can do then have a look at the tyres they are running.
Yep normal road tyres but they can still climb mountains and wade through rivers straight out of the factory.
If you want an old defender then buy one, there are plenty to be had, if you want to try your hand at terrorism then get yourself an old hilux
but you can't knock their ability offroad, OUT OF THE FACTORY they are unbeatable.
You need to remeber the Experience days are there to Showcase and show off the vehciles. All of the obstacles are purpose designed and all the courses have a hard undersurface. This makes it easy for the vehciles to complete the course. Yep normal road tyres but they can still climb mountains and wade through rivers straight out of the factory.
If you want an old defender then buy one, there are plenty to be had, if you want to try your hand at terrorism then get yourself an old hilux
but you can't knock their ability offroad, OUT OF THE FACTORY they are unbeatable.
Yes the vehciles are capable. But the person you quoted is bang on the money.
woody33 said:
I think the ethos of the New Defender should be capable, reliable, easy to repair and (semi) affordable. Basically, a bigger Jimmy............
And unfortunately it will just be a rebodied Existing JLR product with shiny shiny and luxury interior rendering it no different from what they already produce
legless said:
we just couldn't make the business case work for what was (and still is) a relatively tiny market for utility 4x4s
This is the point that most PHers living in cloud cuckoo land seem to spectacularly miss. The tiny minority who say things like "Is it even a real offroader/LR if it doesn't have X, Y or Z" are absolutely hilarious. Not only do they not see how tiny a minority of car buyers they represent, meaning that a sustainable business case would be borderline impossible based on them. But they are also seldom the people with the means/will to buy new cars, making their objections largely irrelevant.I strongly suspect they will aim at the G-Wagon market with this. They have the luxury/tech from the rest of the LR / RR range. Add in some bling and road presence and you have a viable competitor at (probably) a much cheaper price.
If you were in the market for a tarted up G-Wagon, you'd have a look at these I'd have thought.
Not exactly going to keep the rose tinted green laners happy, but as said previously.. they wouldn't buy one new anyway.
If you were in the market for a tarted up G-Wagon, you'd have a look at these I'd have thought.
Not exactly going to keep the rose tinted green laners happy, but as said previously.. they wouldn't buy one new anyway.
300bhp/ton said:
Tom_Spotley_When said:
Who, outside a relatively small set of enthusiasts (who wouldn't buy it new anyway) will care about whether it has live axles and a ladder chassis or not?
Will it make a difference at the local pay and play/trial? Probably.
Will the people who buy it take it to one of those events? No.
Will it have more off-road ability than 97.5% of buyers will ever need. Yes.
Jeep and Suzuki evidently don't agree with you and have quite a different view. Both of them have just launched new live axle ladder chassis vehicles. Both with big demand and lots of interest.Will it make a difference at the local pay and play/trial? Probably.
Will the people who buy it take it to one of those events? No.
Will it have more off-road ability than 97.5% of buyers will ever need. Yes.
If you had a brand that people would pay that premium for, what would you do?
looks like a slightly more utility Disco 4? Which is probably on the right line I think, commercially. Will probably appeal to the horsey types, dog lovers and other outdoor enthusiasts who feel let down by the new disco.
I know some people will be upset, but how many old style defenders would they realistically sell, especially with the explosion in pick ups?
I know some people will be upset, but how many old style defenders would they realistically sell, especially with the explosion in pick ups?
Wooda80 said:
Choice is either to sell a vehicle at Jimny / Jeep prices, or build one that costs only a little more to make and sells for 3 or 4 times the price.
If you had a brand that people would pay that premium for, what would you do?
Depends how many you think you can sell and for how long. If you had a brand that people would pay that premium for, what would you do?
300bhp/ton said:
Andy665 said:
Liking the short rear overhang, looks like they are determined on keeping top notch off road ability
Not without live axles it won't be.A Defender without lives axles or a ladder chassis = instant FAIL!
A shame, but predictable in this day and age of fashion icon Land Rovers for those uninterested in 4x4's, off roading or utility vehicles.
t compared to the Disco or RaRo these days... And one of the biggest limitations are the live axles. The only thing going for the old Defender is panel damage adds character, where as on the other cars it makes them scruffy.M
C70R said:
legless said:
we just couldn't make the business case work for what was (and still is) a relatively tiny market for utility 4x4s
This is the point that most PHers living in cloud cuckoo land seem to spectacularly miss. The tiny minority who say things like "Is it even a real offroader/LR if it doesn't have X, Y or Z" are absolutely hilarious. Not only do they not see how tiny a minority of car buyers they represent, meaning that a sustainable business case would be borderline impossible based on them. But they are also seldom the people with the means/will to buy new cars, making their objections largely irrelevant.I'm reserving judgement until we see the real thing, but my feeling is that this will be so expensive that the people moaning about this or that on this and the other threads will not be, and have never been, the target market.
300bhp/ton said:
)Ultimately, it's more about the driver's ability to read the terrain and pick a route suitable for their vehicle.
M
camel_landy said:
The off-road ability of the Defender is st compared to the Disco or RaRo these days... And one of the biggest limitations are the live axles. The only thing going for the old Defender is panel damage adds character, where as on the other cars it makes them scruffy.
M
Care to explain or justify your claims?t compared to the Disco or RaRo these days... And one of the biggest limitations are the live axles. The only thing going for the old Defender is panel damage adds character, where as on the other cars it makes them scruffy.M
I'm disappointed.
I'm not surprised.
The defender has always been the result of parts bin engineering without any bespoke important parts, we should not be surprised that the new defender is a rehash of current / future cross platform suspension, drivetrain and major components. I was rather hoping this time it wouldn't just be borrowing bits from an old range rover and sticking a new badge on it. it's being treated as the younger brother getting the hand me downs rather than the head of the family from which brand respectability comes from. People expect off road prowess from a defender, the platform shown here will be sadly unable to provide that any better than any of the current offerings. I think we can safely assume it will have locking differentials and traction control but the length of the suspension lower links and the very low outboard positioning of them at the hubs means that regardless of ride height it will be unable to move in deep ruts and that suspension travel will be very restricted as it is on the current vehicles. The tiny pcd of the wheels points towards equally tiny driveline components, unit hubs and a restricted gvw way below anything that might be considered heavy duty.
I'm also disappointed to see they're testing it on low profile road tyres instead of optimising everything for more aggressive tyres with at least an 80% aspect ratio. The positioning of the lower control arms very low also looks like the minimum wheel size might be larger than those sizes for which proper off road tyres can be found easily. I hope a 16" wheel fits. Try buying an off road 17" tyre in Africa or the Middle East. keeping the pcd and tyre size the same would have made more sense from a fleet user but probably less sense from a parts bin perspective.
I'd hold any judgement on the looks until we see one in the flesh but one concern if the body has some semblance of the real thing would be the depth of the doors based on the absence of sills which is a real failing as exists on the likes of the new Disco 5. It's a bit embarrassing if you cant open your door next to a high kerb to drop the kids off at school or if your stuck in snow, heaven forbid you took one of these new Defenders off road or in the mud and found yourself stuck and unable to open the really low doors because you were high centred. The high door bottoms on the old defenders were actually very practical and they were generally out of harms way and allowed one to drive over stones and such like with the wheels to avoid potential damage to other parts.
The argument that someone had about the size of the utility vehicle market was surprising and shows a complete lack of knowledge on the subject of global vehicle sales in land rover at the time. The utility vehicle market is massive but also dominated by a number of key players in different regions that Land Rover will never be able to compete with, maybe that was the argument against the business case for further development of the earlier prototype mentioned some pages ago.
I'm not really sure why people are choosing to compare the Defender with the Hilux when the obvious and natural nemesis ought to be the Land Cruiser 70 series but in recent years as the Hilux improved it became the competition and the Land Cruiser moved on into a different league on its own years ago, even before the 4.5 litre v8 diesel became an option. The Land Cruiser is the benchmark against which we should be comparing the rest of the utility vehicle market. Jeeps are only recreational vehicles, they're not a choice for fleet purchasing. The Jimny is an interesting one and is actually well suited for fleet purchase.
That being said, Jeep had a fantastic stand at the Geneva motor show this year and really showed the brand and heritage. The Land Rover stand was dull, bland, you couldn't talk about utility vehicle fleet sales and every single vehicle was on low profile road tyres which shows how the brand wants to project itself. I'd have no doubt the Jeep rubicon with live axles and differential locks coupled to its robust but simple driveline and build will leave the new defender for dead in the mud and reliability stakes for a recreational user and offer much more in terms of post purchase upgrades to suit the individuals requirements.
Regarding trailer towing, all the Jap pickups tow 3.5 tons now as does the new Merc pickup. One worry is if this new Defender is as light as they say it is then it'll be very unstable towing a fully loaded trailer and struggle on drawbar pulling tasks like recovery or dragging things. Sometimes you actually want a bit of weight. It's kinda why you don't get skinny rugby players, the new defender seems like a bit of a ballet dancer or chess player in its construction whereas the Land Cruiser would be in an All Black's scrum.
camel_landy said:
The off-road ability of the Defender is st compared to the Disco or RaRo these days... And one of the biggest limitations are the live axles. The only thing going for the old Defender is panel damage adds character, where as on the other cars it makes them scruffy.
M
In my experience there is no question that live axles are better at crossing a wider variety of terrain safely and more reliably year on year. I can't think of asingle reliable fully independent suspension in a 4x4 commercial vehicle with the possible exception of the humvee which needs a lot of maintenance.. Things like the Shogun don't count as they're not really commercial load carrying vehicles.The cost of tyres on a misaligned independent suspension and extra maintenance costs changing bushes and links is significant as is the extra downtime. A failed bush in a live axle suspension will not deteriorate the system effectiveness significantly compared to an independent system which will be seriously compromised with even just one bush failure. t compared to the Disco or RaRo these days... And one of the biggest limitations are the live axles. The only thing going for the old Defender is panel damage adds character, where as on the other cars it makes them scruffy.M
Accident damage is also more likely to prevent an independently sprung vehicle from either limping home or undergoing successful repair.
The independent system shown in the pictures has fairly short arms and assuming there is some kind of suspension travel beyond that of a normal road car then the bushes are unlikely to last long on poor and unsurfaced roads.
The defender was c rap off road in cross axle circumstances but it would generally get the occupants to their destination day in, day out unlike the modern JLR products which are not only unreliable but impossible to fix without specialist knowledge and tools. The vehicles you refer to do not have the real world ground clearance, approach, departure and breakover angles of the defender which are the cornerstones of all terrain prowess (despite what marketing and traction control you were subjected to at the land rover experience). The very weak defender drive train is what you should have picked on.
Easily replaced panels is the only thing that kept my previous defender fleets competitive with land cruisers which would generally have to get written off after an accident involving major bodywork repair. Being able to scavenge body parts in a Frankenstein fashion made defender fleet ownership really quite viable. I don't understand the reference to character on damaged panels, a defender simply looks unmaintained if the body is damaged in my opinion.
4x4's need a high roll centre to operate safely off road, a low roll centre encourages body roll and is less stable on side slopes as well as giving poor traction on climbing obstacles as the wheel tries to pull away on contact reducing grip.I'm not sure how the roll centre of the new defender has been optimised over that of other vehicles which will share the platform. It's almost certain the platform will have been designed with the lowest roll centre to suit a road car as much as possible.
What we're looking at here with the new defender is an illusion of a utility vehicle and has been said, why build cheap with a small margin when you can spend a tiny bit more to get better than the predecessor and (which will be so easy to pick parameters the new version is better than) sell at a premium. Building a premium vehicle cheap is very difficult but Toyota has managed it. You can get a Toyota 70 series for $25k, I'll probably keep buying them then, shame, I would love to buy a British vehicle one day.
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