RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender - first sighting!
Discussion
sam_jw said:
This a thousand times over. Cheap reliable pickups rule the day for all of the above users who care about cost, reliability, and a decent level of off-road capability. For your fully fledged off road enthusiasts then sure, a Defender or similar will go further; but how many sales do these account for?
I think the answer you are looking for is "significant".Jeep sold 240,000 Wranglers in the USA alone last year. That is more vehicles than Land Rover sells globally across all its models. And over the past 20 years sales of the Wrangler have remained around 100,000+ units a year average. Put simply, that is a shed load of vehicles and revenue.
The off road market is also prevalent enough that Suzuki have invested in and brought out an updated Jimny, to which they have massively under estimated global sales with a complete shortage of stock.
And other makers are producing off road specific models as part of a regular line-up with good sales figures.
The TRD line of vehicles from Toyota.
ZR2 from Chevy.
F150 and Ranger Raptors from Ford.
Rebel and Power Wagon from Dodge.
All of these are extensions to regular lines, but all of the above have specific kit for off roading and they all sell well.
300bhp/ton said:
Jeep sold 240,000 Wranglers in the USA alone last year. That is more vehicles than Land Rover sells globally across all its models. A
Nope. In 2017 Land Rover sold 430K.And you quote a bunch of specialist versions of pretty (at least in the US in the case of the trucks ) mainstream vehicles. What proportion of model sales do those versions take - in a market with vastly different demographics and buyer behaviors?
Do you think the Wrangler is so successful in the US (far less so elsewhere, for a reason) is because it's so good off road and the buyers need that functionality, or is it because that's just the image they want to portray?
300bhp/ton said:
sam_jw said:
This a thousand times over. Cheap reliable pickups rule the day for all of the above users who care about cost, reliability, and a decent level of off-road capability. For your fully fledged off road enthusiasts then sure, a Defender or similar will go further; but how many sales do these account for?
I think the answer you are looking for is "significant".Jeep sold 240,000 Wranglers in the USA alone last year. That is more vehicles than Land Rover sells globally across all its models. And over the past 20 years sales of the Wrangler have remained around 100,000+ units a year average. Put simply, that is a shed load of vehicles and revenue.
The off road market is also prevalent enough that Suzuki have invested in and brought out an updated Jimny, to which they have massively under estimated global sales with a complete shortage of stock.
And other makers are producing off road specific models as part of a regular line-up with good sales figures.
The TRD line of vehicles from Toyota.
ZR2 from Chevy.
F150 and Ranger Raptors from Ford.
Rebel and Power Wagon from Dodge.
All of these are extensions to regular lines, but all of the above have specific kit for off roading and they all sell well.
As far as I'm aware, they aren't new models, they're an equivalent to something like the SVR RRS and SVR Disco 5 (which is the off-road one).
LR are making a product from new. It costs a shedload of cash to do that and the people who might buy one are such a small percentage that it probably doesn't make financial sense. There might be an SVR Defender with all singing and dancing dislocating suspension and a hose-down interior and a winch and snorkel, but I'd wager it'll cost a load more than standard and will sell in tiny quantities.
I'm also fairly certain that the reason Jeep sold so many Wranglers is because they start at $23,000. On a long-term finance deal, that's dirt cheap.
I'd also challenge the assertion that because Jeep sell a lot they must all be used off-road on Moab Slickrock.
I suspect a significant number are bought by people who want something that's good looking, a bit iconic and American to use to knock around town. Surprise, much like the Defender.
Brooking10 said:
andyj007 said:
another pile of electronic s
te from land rover, no doubt to spend more time in the dealer ship being fixed than driven.. bring it on....
love a good laugh..
Another dwad spouting cut and paste nonsense on a JLR thread no doubt with zero first hand experience.te from land rover, no doubt to spend more time in the dealer ship being fixed than driven.. bring it on.... love a good laugh..
Give it a rest.....
Nobody’s laughing.
Do JLR give the RAC and AA a heads up when they launch a new model?
DonkeyApple said:
300, they sold where the British govt locked out all competition.
Hence why they sold in the colonies right up until those colonies became independent and the U.K. government lost the ability to block competition.
They sold well to the utility firms right up until those firms were nationalised and the U.K. government lost the ability to block out competition.
They sold well to the MOD until too many people died for the U.K. government to continue locking out competition.
They sold to U.K. farmers until the instant that cheaper and better products were available after the U.K. government dropped the tariffs that had kept them out.
The only fair and free market they ever sold to were lifestyle blokes who just wanted them for a bit of fun as urban runabouts.
Now they are building a product that won’t just appeal to Londoners but to people like them across the world. People who want some fun and have the disposable income to lob at it. LR have completely understood their market.
Good post.Hence why they sold in the colonies right up until those colonies became independent and the U.K. government lost the ability to block competition.
They sold well to the utility firms right up until those firms were nationalised and the U.K. government lost the ability to block out competition.
They sold well to the MOD until too many people died for the U.K. government to continue locking out competition.
They sold to U.K. farmers until the instant that cheaper and better products were available after the U.K. government dropped the tariffs that had kept them out.
The only fair and free market they ever sold to were lifestyle blokes who just wanted them for a bit of fun as urban runabouts.
Now they are building a product that won’t just appeal to Londoners but to people like them across the world. People who want some fun and have the disposable income to lob at it. LR have completely understood their market.
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
DonkeyApple said:
300, they sold where the British govt locked out all competition.
Hence why they sold in the colonies right up until those colonies became independent and the U.K. government lost the ability to block competition.
They sold well to the utility firms right up until those firms were nationalised and the U.K. government lost the ability to block out competition.
They sold well to the MOD until too many people died for the U.K. government to continue locking out competition.
They sold to U.K. farmers until the instant that cheaper and better products were available after the U.K. government dropped the tariffs that had kept them out.
The only fair and free market they ever sold to were lifestyle blokes who just wanted them for a bit of fun as urban runabouts.
Now they are building a product that won’t just appeal to Londoners but to people like them across the world. People who want some fun and have the disposable income to lob at it. LR have completely understood their market.
Good post.Hence why they sold in the colonies right up until those colonies became independent and the U.K. government lost the ability to block competition.
They sold well to the utility firms right up until those firms were nationalised and the U.K. government lost the ability to block out competition.
They sold well to the MOD until too many people died for the U.K. government to continue locking out competition.
They sold to U.K. farmers until the instant that cheaper and better products were available after the U.K. government dropped the tariffs that had kept them out.
The only fair and free market they ever sold to were lifestyle blokes who just wanted them for a bit of fun as urban runabouts.
Now they are building a product that won’t just appeal to Londoners but to people like them across the world. People who want some fun and have the disposable income to lob at it. LR have completely understood their market.
What they have got chronically wrong though is failing the address the tiny and uneconomically viable market for blokes on Internet fora who buy knackered old cars third hand, outwith the dealer network and promptly hack them to bits to create home brew Frankenfourwheeldrives ......
had ham said:
Nope. In 2017 Land Rover sold 430K.
According to http://carsalesbase.comLand Rover total EU sales 2018 - 150,000
Land Rover total US sales 2018 - 92,000
Land Rover total China sales 2018 - 40,000
Total = 282,0000
Where did you get 430k form? Or was that including Jaguar models too?
I don't have stats for Oz, Russia, other parts of Asia or RoW not covered. Not sure it would make the numbers up to your claims.
Either way, selling 240,000 Jeep Wranglers in the US alone, is still an amazing number. As for the Wrangler in other parts of the world, I'm not sure Jeep really care. I know the UK gets a fixed allocation of vehicles. So even if they sell 100% of them, the numbers are tiny. Jeep also price the Wrangler stupid over here and generally appear to have no interest in selling them.
had ham said:
And you quote a bunch of specialist versions of pretty (at least in the US in the case of the trucks ) mainstream vehicles. What proportion of model sales do those versions take - in a market with vastly different demographics and buyer behaviors?
You have access to the internet too, go look it up if you are so bothered.However the very fact all of the major players build and sell such vehicles, should make it very obvious that the sales are significant and profitable enough to bother doing it.
had ham said:
Do you think the Wrangler is so successful in the US (far less so elsewhere, for a reason) is because it's so good off road and the buyers need that functionality, or is it because that's just the image they want to portray?
I think you are just being difficult for the sake of it tbh. People buy vehicles for all sorts of reasons, why on Earth do you think I'll have intimate knowledge for each sale is beyond me.That said "image" in the case of the Wrangler is directly linked to it's off road ability and credibility. So it certainly plays a major part in it.
Willy Nilly said:
Brooking10 said:
andyj007 said:
another pile of electronic ste from land rover, no doubt to spend more time in the dealer ship being fixed than driven.. bring it on....
love a good laugh..
Another dwad spouting cut and paste nonsense on a JLR thread no doubt with zero first hand experience.te from land rover, no doubt to spend more time in the dealer ship being fixed than driven.. bring it on.... love a good laugh..
Give it a rest.....
Nobody’s laughing.
Do JLR give the RAC and AA a heads up when they launch a new model?
"THEBEST4X4XFAR" 
I've just returned from 5 months in Colombia, and I'm going back there again in April to start a big, 9000km, road trip in an old VW bus - I just turned 50 so figured "why not?"
And being the petrol head that I am, I tend to notice what people are driving. And whilst I was there I noticed that for the thousands and thousands of Coffee farmers, Andean farmers, or just about anyone that wants to venture away from the asphalt of Medellín, or Bogotá, "THEWORST4X4XFAR" was the Land Rover.
"THEBEST4X4XFAR", in fact, "THEBEST4X4XAfkINGLONGSHOT" was the Land Cruiser. Followed by the Nissan Patrol and the Suzuki.
Maybe Land Rover know when they are beaten. Pointless trying to compete with Toyota in Latin America or Africa where you NEED a 4x4.
Land Rover have turned their back on the original users of their vehicles - British Farmers. The new Land Rover is for middle class family school runs. That's why it doesn't have a ladder frame chassis, or a live axle. That's why it has coil springs and Bluetooth etc.
Anyway, at least this latest model doesn't have the "picasso look" rear end that one of the previous ones had
I've just returned from 5 months in Colombia, and I'm going back there again in April to start a big, 9000km, road trip in an old VW bus - I just turned 50 so figured "why not?"
And being the petrol head that I am, I tend to notice what people are driving. And whilst I was there I noticed that for the thousands and thousands of Coffee farmers, Andean farmers, or just about anyone that wants to venture away from the asphalt of Medellín, or Bogotá, "THEWORST4X4XFAR" was the Land Rover.
"THEBEST4X4XFAR", in fact, "THEBEST4X4XAf
kINGLONGSHOT" was the Land Cruiser. Followed by the Nissan Patrol and the Suzuki.Maybe Land Rover know when they are beaten. Pointless trying to compete with Toyota in Latin America or Africa where you NEED a 4x4.
Land Rover have turned their back on the original users of their vehicles - British Farmers. The new Land Rover is for middle class family school runs. That's why it doesn't have a ladder frame chassis, or a live axle. That's why it has coil springs and Bluetooth etc.
Anyway, at least this latest model doesn't have the "picasso look" rear end that one of the previous ones had
DonkeyApple said:
llcoolmac said:
JLR just don't seem to understand any of their markets.
Isn’t that a bit of an insane thought process when it’s so very clear that LR do completely understand their markets and have capitalised on that aspect so enormously?Now the bling markets - the ones that saw the vulgar, chrome additions to the Range Rover - and the frothy money have stalled, they are in serious s
t.300bhp/ton said:
had ham said:
Nope. In 2017 Land Rover sold 430K.
According to http://carsalesbase.comLand Rover total EU sales 2018 - 150,000
Land Rover total US sales 2018 - 92,000
Land Rover total China sales 2018 - 40,000
Total = 282,0000
Where did you get 430k form? Or was that including Jaguar models too?
I don't have stats for Oz, Russia, other parts of Asia or RoW not covered. Not sure it would make the numbers up to your claims.
I imagine, using the wonder of Google, the other poster got them from the official Land Rover shareholders report which states 442,508 Land Rovers and 178,601 Jaguars.
300bhp/ton said:
I think the answer you are looking for is "significant".
Jeep sold 240,000 Wranglers in the USA alone last year. That is more vehicles than Land Rover sells globally across all its models. And over the past 20 years sales of the Wrangler have remained around 100,000+ units a year average. Put simply, that is a shed load of vehicles and revenue.
The off road market is also prevalent enough that Suzuki have invested in and brought out an updated Jimny, to which they have massively under estimated global sales with a complete shortage of stock.
And other makers are producing off road specific models as part of a regular line-up with good sales figures.
The TRD line of vehicles from Toyota.
ZR2 from Chevy.
F150 and Ranger Raptors from Ford.
Rebel and Power Wagon from Dodge.
All of these are extensions to regular lines, but all of the above have specific kit for off roading and they all sell well.
What’s the business case for a relatively low volume luxury SUV manufacturer based in the U.K. to suddenly start mass producing, cheaper trucks to sell in the US?Jeep sold 240,000 Wranglers in the USA alone last year. That is more vehicles than Land Rover sells globally across all its models. And over the past 20 years sales of the Wrangler have remained around 100,000+ units a year average. Put simply, that is a shed load of vehicles and revenue.
The off road market is also prevalent enough that Suzuki have invested in and brought out an updated Jimny, to which they have massively under estimated global sales with a complete shortage of stock.
And other makers are producing off road specific models as part of a regular line-up with good sales figures.
The TRD line of vehicles from Toyota.
ZR2 from Chevy.
F150 and Ranger Raptors from Ford.
Rebel and Power Wagon from Dodge.
All of these are extensions to regular lines, but all of the above have specific kit for off roading and they all sell well.
They need to create a pan US new network of dealerships, try and cover the shipping cost and try to compete against much, much larger firms on financing. It’s simply impossible.
JLR completely understand their business at the premium end of the market and any product will be built to compete at that end. It’s an impossibility to compete at the mass volume bottom end.
Brooking10 said:
Agreed.
What they have got chronically wrong though is failing the address the tiny and uneconomically viable market for blokes on Internet fora who buy knackered old cars third hand, outwith the dealer network and promptly hack them to bits to create home brew Frankenfourwheeldrives ......
True. I’d say that the credible mistake they have made is in not addressing the valid reliability reputation. In that area they do seem to have sat back and been happy to just live off the massive consumer demand that for the last decade has made it less of an issue but arguably, at some point, will give them a kick in the pants if that is not what is starting to happen currently as consumer money at the top end gets a bit tighter in their key markets?What they have got chronically wrong though is failing the address the tiny and uneconomically viable market for blokes on Internet fora who buy knackered old cars third hand, outwith the dealer network and promptly hack them to bits to create home brew Frankenfourwheeldrives ......
DonkeyApple said:
What’s the business case for a relatively low volume luxury SUV manufacturer based in the U.K. to suddenly start mass producing, cheaper trucks to sell in the US?
They need to create a pan US new network of dealerships, try and cover the shipping cost and try to compete against much, much larger firms on financing. It’s simply impossible.
JLR completely understand their business at the premium end of the market and any product will be built to compete at that end. It’s an impossibility to compete at the mass volume bottom end.
This.They need to create a pan US new network of dealerships, try and cover the shipping cost and try to compete against much, much larger firms on financing. It’s simply impossible.
JLR completely understand their business at the premium end of the market and any product will be built to compete at that end. It’s an impossibility to compete at the mass volume bottom end.
It’s totally lost on people that at this stage of proceedings it is not cheap and simple to build cars which are cheap and simple.
Interestingly in JLRs first sales update of 2019 their best selling model was the RRS, an expensive car and the second most costly in their range.
As you say they absolutely understand their market, they do need however to improve how they serve it and increase cost efficiency.
Tom_Spotley_When said:
It doesn't cost Ford a huge amount of money to bolt some Fox Racing Shocks and an existing engine/gearbox to make an F150 into a Raptor. Likewise, GM and Toyota.
For some of the models a bit more goes into it. The Raptor has unique body panels, wider track, different engines, locking diffs, different bits of interior, different transmission parts and so on.Of course it is a development of an existing line, but you are rather deminishing the engineering and changes require to labour a point which is somewhat less valid.
Tom_Spotley_When said:
As far as I'm aware, they aren't new models, they're an equivalent to something like the SVR RRS and SVR Disco 5 (which is the off-road one).
See above.Tom_Spotley_When said:
LR are making a product from new.
But are they? All evidence suggests it uses a shortened Disco platform likely using the same running gear. Ok, sure it might look different. But it's not likely to be 100% new in every regard. Unless they really have gone ladder chassis and live axles.... "spy shots" suggest not.Tom_Spotley_When said:
It costs a shedload of cash to do that and the people who might buy one are such a small percentage that it probably doesn't make financial sense.
eh??? If it's such a small percentage, why are JLR bother then? They obviously see potential. Not really sure what you are driving at here, do you have any evidence at all to suggest hardly anyone will want to buy one?Especially when there is plenty of sales data to suggest comparable models sell very well. And also evidenced by at least 5 major car makers all building specific vehicles for this kind of market or target audience.
Tom_Spotley_When said:
I'm also fairly certain that the reason Jeep sold so many Wranglers is because they start at $23,000. On a long-term finance deal, that's dirt cheap.
Pricing something right is evidently important for success. But why raise this point with me? It's not like I'm in control of Jeeps or Land Rovers pricing policy 
Tom_Spotley_When said:
I'd also challenge the assertion that because Jeep sell a lot they must all be used off-road on Moab Slickrock.
You are the only person making this assertion. I certainly haven't made it, so again, I'm rather lost to the point you are making 
However there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest a great many are used off road. Just have a browse on any Jeep forum, use Google to search for pictures of Jeeps off road, look at magazine articles or watch some YouTube content.
I did also bother to Google it for you, it bought up an article which claimed:
"just ask its vehicle development manager, Jim Repp, who states 85 percent of Wrangler owners enjoy taking their SUVs off-roading,"
https://www.kelleychryslerdodgejeep.com/blog/2013/...
Scroll through how many modern looking Jeeps are being used off road here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=jeep+jamboree+2018...
300bhp/ton said:
I think the answer you are looking for is "significant".
Jeep sold 240,000 Wranglers in the USA alone last year. That is more vehicles than Land Rover sells globally across all its models. And over the past 20 years sales of the Wrangler have remained around 100,000+ units a year average. Put simply, that is a shed load of vehicles and revenue.
The off road market is also prevalent enough that Suzuki have invested in and brought out an updated Jimny, to which they have massively under estimated global sales with a complete shortage of stock.
And other makers are producing off road specific models as part of a regular line-up with good sales figures.
Jeep sold 240,000 Wranglers in the USA alone last year. That is more vehicles than Land Rover sells globally across all its models. And over the past 20 years sales of the Wrangler have remained around 100,000+ units a year average. Put simply, that is a shed load of vehicles and revenue.
The off road market is also prevalent enough that Suzuki have invested in and brought out an updated Jimny, to which they have massively under estimated global sales with a complete shortage of stock.
And other makers are producing off road specific models as part of a regular line-up with good sales figures.
I'm with you on this one.. Land Rover have thrown pretty much all their eggs into the same, image heavy, market of SUV's for those who are likely not to go further off-road than their kids' football pitch.Personally, and this will be contentious, I think JLR, if spy shots are accurate, may have 'bottled it' with regards to the Defender and played it too safe. I think this may be to their detriment.
I think the right car would be more Jimny & Wrangler and less SUV with the rounded edges squared off. Or more the point, a Disco 4 with a shorter rear overhang. JLR appear to be stuck in 'more of the same' mode with a self-saturated market. Kinda Apple Computers in 1996. Lots of varieties of Mac but what they needed was the iPod!
Macboy said:
300bhp/ton said:
had ham said:
Nope. In 2017 Land Rover sold 430K.
According to http://carsalesbase.comLand Rover total EU sales 2018 - 150,000
Land Rover total US sales 2018 - 92,000
Land Rover total China sales 2018 - 40,000
Total = 282,0000
Where did you get 430k form? Or was that including Jaguar models too?
I don't have stats for Oz, Russia, other parts of Asia or RoW not covered. Not sure it would make the numbers up to your claims.
I imagine, using the wonder of Google, the other poster got them from the official Land Rover shareholders report which states 442,508 Land Rovers and 178,601 Jaguars.
As for the rest of 300's (as usual) badly informed and overly opinionated drivel, I'm not going to waste my time bothering to reply.
300bhp/ton said:
Lord Marylebone said:
yellowstreak said:
Auto-box. 
I drive a lot of different cars from manufacturers such as Land Rover, Toyota, Isuzu, etc on a weekly basis due to my business, and it’s quite rare to find a manual box in a newish Land Rover.On the rare occasion I get in a Land Rover and find a clutch pedal and gear stick, I almost can’t be arsed driving it.
Also, many of the Hilux, Isuzu, etc now sold are automatic.
My wife’s Cayenne is auto, my Dad’s Range Rover is auto, my mums Discovey is auto...
I can think of only a miniscule number of circumstances where it would be better to have a manual gearbox these days.
An auto box is certainly an easier and more enjoyable drive in most vehicles.
All my air cooled Porsches have been manual.
I’m currently looking at Ferrari 360’s and I really want a manual not an F1.
But for something you drive every day or most days. f
k that. Auto box all the time if it’s available!Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 15th February 10:40
DonkeyApple said:
What’s the business case for a relatively low volume luxury SUV manufacturer based in the U.K. to suddenly start mass producing, cheaper trucks to sell in the US?
They need to create a pan US new network of dealerships, try and cover the shipping cost and try to compete against much, much larger firms on financing. It’s simply impossible.
JLR completely understand their business at the premium end of the market and any product will be built to compete at that end. It’s an impossibility to compete at the mass volume bottom end.
I don't get your point. You seem to be saying because they currently don't, they never should. A good job you weren't advising the likes to Toyota, Honda and Nissan when then also had no US dealer networks....They need to create a pan US new network of dealerships, try and cover the shipping cost and try to compete against much, much larger firms on financing. It’s simply impossible.
JLR completely understand their business at the premium end of the market and any product will be built to compete at that end. It’s an impossibility to compete at the mass volume bottom end.
And they aren't 100% UK based, they are owned by an Asian company who have plants in other parts of the world. As do JLR themsleves....
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff