RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender - first sighting!

[Todd Bonzalez]

Oh good 300hp/ton is here to make stuff up and not understand literally anything. Great stuff.

[300bhp/ton]

Todd Bonzalez said:

Oh good 300hp/ton is here to make stuff up and not understand literally anything. Great stuff.

So what have I made up exactly? If you disagree, be constructive and have a discussion. There is no need to be a bit of a dick about and in return make stuff up yourself claiming I've done something I haven't.

[Harry_523]

300bhp/ton said:

So what have I made up exactly? If you disagree, be constructive and have a discussion. There is no need to be a bit of a dick about and in return make stuff up yourself claiming I've done something I haven't.

That the jeep wrangler outsold the whole of landrover for a start.....

[Mr.Jimbo]

Everyone harping on about the new one being st off road with an auto box and automatic diff locking/ESP - Terrain response will get you much further than your average PHer in a manual everything Defender (old school) - for example wading, new one will be 900mm like the other LR/RR products (exception being Velar and Evoque slightly lower at 650) - but every car in the LR/RR range has a greater capacity than an unmodified original defender (air intake, diff/gearbox breathers extended) at 500mm. Sure you can mod one, but then you could mod a current disco to have a snorkel and breathers.

I'm no off roader, but I did things in a Disco 4 with terrain response that in a defender would have required a lot of practice/skill/luck - I wish there was a simple way to show how effective a system it is.

I personally think this image is a photoshop, the vents on the dash look wrong to me.

[NomduJour]

300bhp/ton said:

But are they? All evidence suggests it uses a shortened Disco platform likely using the same running gear.

I thought you were interested in this? The information is freely available - first iteration of the new MLA platform.

Also - what can you not understand about Land Rover not being in a position to churn out cheap, crude, old-fashioned cars just to keep a tiny handful of poor hi-vis enthusiasts happy?

Edited by NomduJour on Friday 15th February 11:45

[anonymous-user]

300bhp/ton said:

Brooking10 said:

This.

It’s totally lost on people that at this stage of proceedings it is not cheap and simple to build cars which are cheap and simple.

So are you saying that this either doesn't exist, or they achieved the impossible?

Point.

Missed.

Companies that are based on building cheap and simple cars are able to cost effectively make cheap and simple cars.

Companies that are based on making expensive and complex cars cannot suddenly, or even over a protracted period of time, cost effectively become manufacturers of cheap and simple cars.

The inverse of course equally applies.

[Tom_Spotley_When]

300bhp/ton said:

Tom_Spotley_When said:

It doesn't cost Ford a huge amount of money to bolt some Fox Racing Shocks and an existing engine/gearbox to make an F150 into a Raptor. Likewise, GM and Toyota.

For some of the models a bit more goes into it. The Raptor has unique body panels, wider track, different engines, locking diffs, different bits of interior, different transmission parts and so on.

Of course it is a development of an existing line, but you are rather deminishing the engineering and changes require to labour a point which is somewhat less valid.

Tom_Spotley_When said:

As far as I'm aware, they aren't new models, they're an equivalent to something like the SVR RRS and SVR Disco 5 (which is the off-road one).

See above.

Tom_Spotley_When said:

LR are making a product from new.

But are they? All evidence suggests it uses a shortened Disco platform likely using the same running gear. Ok, sure it might look different. But it's not likely to be 100% new in every regard. Unless they really have gone ladder chassis and live axles.... "spy shots" suggest not.

Tom_Spotley_When said:

It costs a shedload of cash to do that and the people who might buy one are such a small percentage that it probably doesn't make financial sense.

eh??? If it's such a small percentage, why are JLR bother then? They obviously see potential. Not really sure what you are driving at here, do you have any evidence at all to suggest hardly anyone will want to buy one?

Especially when there is plenty of sales data to suggest comparable models sell very well. And also evidenced by at least 5 major car makers all building specific vehicles for this kind of market or target audience.

Tom_Spotley_When said:

I'm also fairly certain that the reason Jeep sold so many Wranglers is because they start at $23,000. On a long-term finance deal, that's dirt cheap.

Pricing something right is evidently important for success. But why raise this point with me? It's not like I'm in control of Jeeps or Land Rovers pricing policy

Tom_Spotley_When said:

I'd also challenge the assertion that because Jeep sell a lot they must all be used off-road on Moab Slickrock.

You are the only person making this assertion. I certainly haven't made it, so again, I'm rather lost to the point you are making

However there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest a great many are used off road. Just have a browse on any Jeep forum, use Google to search for pictures of Jeeps off road, look at magazine articles or watch some YouTube content.

I did also bother to Google it for you, it bought up an article which claimed:

"just ask its vehicle development manager, Jim Repp, who states 85 percent of Wrangler owners enjoy taking their SUVs off-roading,"

https://www.kelleychryslerdodgejeep.com/blog/2013/...

Scroll through how many modern looking Jeeps are being used off road here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=jeep+jamboree+2018...

Right, the Raptor might have some modifications to the body panels, but it's not the same as re-engineering a whole car. They likely bolt or spot-weld on (much like the front wings on AMG Mercedes). Pretty sure the rest of the changes are bolt-ins to the drivetrain and transmission. A new diff and bits in the transmission and interior aren't likely to need massive re-engineering, are they?

I don't know about the exact platform, but the basis of my point remains: Why engineer a completely new off-road orientated platform, when 90% of buyers are unlikely to ever use it and compromise it for what it will be used for (in the real world, not in the world of the internet).

Which leads to:

People will buy them as fast as JLR can make them. The point I was making was that the people who are likely to buy them will use them to drive to stables or take the dog for a walk, or maybe go surfing or mountain-biking or to the local organic cafe/yoga studio. They won't be bought new by farmers, the 4x4 response community, Mountain Rescue or utility companies. I suspect JLR know their market, and have decided that it'll sell more to the Middle Class at a higher margin, than to utility companies at a lower margin.

Have you thought that Jeep might sell a lot of wranglers because they're so cheap. A new Defender won't be as cheap as a Wranger, hell the old one wasn't (and still isn't.)

A high volume of sales, doesn't immediately correlate to every owner using it off-road. 85% of people using it off-road is great. What does that mean? Down a farm-track that an estate could manage, or across MOAB and how regularly? I used to enjoy driving my Discovery Off-Road but only in Winter because my mates lived down farm tracks that my old Polo couldn't manage.

I get that some jeeps are used off-road. A lot more aren't though. Which is the same for the Defender. I live in Rural Lancashire - not a million miles from the Yorkshire dales. I'd say 40% of the Defenders round here are used for work. The rest are all lifestyle vehicles and look as though the furthest they go off-road is to park on the street.

[Ayahuasca]

sr.guiri said:

"THEBEST4X4XFAR"

I've just returned from 5 months in Colombia, and I'm going back there again in April to start a big, 9000km, road trip in an old VW bus - I just turned 50 so figured "why not?"

And being the petrol head that I am, I tend to notice what people are driving. And whilst I was there I noticed that for the thousands and thousands of Coffee farmers, Andean farmers, or just about anyone that wants to venture away from the asphalt of Medellín, or Bogotá, "THEWORST4X4XFAR" was the Land Rover.

"THEBEST4X4XFAR", in fact, "THEBEST4X4XAfkINGLONGSHOT" was the Land Cruiser. Followed by the Nissan Patrol and the Suzuki.

Maybe Land Rover know when they are beaten. Pointless trying to compete with Toyota in Latin America or Africa where you NEED a 4x4.

Land Rover have turned their back on the original users of their vehicles - British Farmers. The new Land Rover is for middle class family school runs. That's why it doesn't have a ladder frame chassis, or a live axle. That's why it has coil springs and Bluetooth etc.

Anyway, at least this latest model doesn't have the "picasso look" rear end that one of the previous ones had

I have lived for 10 years in Central America. The reason that there are more Toyotas is that Toyota has invested more into local dealerships. Thus there are more new Toyotas on the market, more spares, and more on the second hand market and cheaper prices.

Defenders are fairly rare in most of Lat Am because Solihull has not been arsed to take market share. A Toyota Hilux here in Panama now sells for upwards of $45,000 (and that is without significant import taxes). I am sure JLR could if it wanted, earn good dollars selling Defenders here. The FX rate only helps.

I own both a Toyota Land Cruiser and a Defender. If I go seriously off road there is only one car I take and it is not the Toyota.

Where this pic was the ‘road’ was hacked out with a machete.

Edited by Ayahuasca on Friday 15th February 13:32

[Willy Nilly]

Brooking10 said:

Willy Nilly said:

Brooking10 said:

andyj007 said:

another pile of electronic ste from land rover, no doubt to spend more time in the dealer ship being fixed than driven.. bring it on....
love a good laugh..

Another dwad spouting cut and paste nonsense on a JLR thread no doubt with zero first hand experience.
Give it a rest.....
Nobody’s laughing.

A colleague of mine has a D5 and needed to move his little tractor on it's trailer one weekend last autumn, but the D5 was showing an error code and couldn't be used to tow. No matter, he thought, I'll use the Puma engined Defender, which wouldn't go either.

Do JLR give the RAC and AA a heads up when they launch a new model?

No more than when you give us advance warning of another apocryphal tale with a hilarious punchline amended

The above D5 owner had a D3, that spent a considerable amount of time having "updates", repairs to those of us that run Japanese cars. The owner of the place I work at had 2 daughters, one with a D5 and one with a DS. The one with the D5 tried to reject it due to ongoing issues, it seems they had enough because the last time I saw it it had metamorphised into a Merc ML. The DS has had various issues including being off the road for several weeks with timing chain issues.

A mate has a D4 commercial. enquired about reliability. Suffice to say there was a pause and intake of breath.

Anecdotal? Of course, but there's a huge amount of similar anecdotes. I'm sure they're much nice to drive than my car and have more more badge cache, but my 2 Japanese vehicles have had a lightbulb between them. They just work.

Edited by Willy Nilly on Friday 15th February 13:27

[NomduJour]

“Anecdotal” - @_DHOTYA

[DonkeyApple]

300bhp/ton said:

I don't get your point. You seem to be saying because they currently don't, they never should. A good job you weren't advising the likes to Toyota, Honda and Nissan when then also had no US dealer networks....

And they aren't 100% UK based, they are owned by an Asian company who have plants in other parts of the world. As do JLR themsleves....

Not at all. I’m not saying they never should. I’m saying they manifestly can’t.

What’s your business plan for a completely new dealership network and a total change of the business from medium scale premium vehicle manufacturer to major volume, low margin manufacturer and the incorporation of a banking business?

[camel_landy]

300bhp/ton said:

I don't get your point. You seem to be saying because they currently don't, they never should. A good job you weren't advising the likes to Toyota, Honda and Nissan when then also had no US dealer networks....

And they aren't 100% UK based, they are owned by an Asian company who have plants in other parts of the world. As do JLR themsleves....

Errr... LR have produced the vehicles in CKD form for many years, so assembly in other countries is nothing new. However, manufacturing in other countries is different matter...

M

[oldtimer2]

Some posting here have failed to understand the different implications and choices available to a 10,000,000 sales a year company (such as Toyota or VW) and a 600,000 sales a year company (such as JLR). JLR has no chance or possibility of competing on price from a relatively high cost UK base, especially considering its low volume base. That is why it has focussed on premium priced products - very successfully with the Range Rover brand, less so if at all with the Jaguar brand.

It remains to be seen what they actually have offer with the new Defender. Slovakia will offer some savings on payroll costs, but against that there are tariff uncertainties ahead especially selling to the USA. JLR is capable of building a product range that stretches from the most basic to a SVX version. Within that spectrum there will be many opportunities to develop sales opportunities, including, I suspect, sales to fleets for specific applications where it can offer specific benefits. But I also suspect that most sales will be to private owners.

[oilit]

two things spring to mind :

1) the metal/plastic mechanism that is the brake pedal looks really flimsy
2) why is there a face of a man in the reflection of the dash clocks but he has no legs according to space in front of drivers seat !

Edited by oilit on Saturday 16th February 07:26

Edited by oilit on Saturday 16th February 07:28

[Pintofbest]

oilit said:

two things spring to mind :

1) the metal/plastic mechanism that is the brake pedal looks really flimsy
2) why is there a face of a man in the reflection of the dash clocks but he has no legs according to space in front of drivers seat !

Edited by oilit on Saturday 16th February 07:26

Edited by oilit on Saturday 16th February 07:28

The face is album art from the stereo.

[anonymous-user]

Brooking10 said:

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

DonkeyApple said:

300, they sold where the British govt locked out all competition.

Hence why they sold in the colonies right up until those colonies became independent and the U.K. government lost the ability to block competition.

They sold well to the utility firms right up until those firms were nationalised and the U.K. government lost the ability to block out competition.

They sold well to the MOD until too many people died for the U.K. government to continue locking out competition.

They sold to U.K. farmers until the instant that cheaper and better products were available after the U.K. government dropped the tariffs that had kept them out.

The only fair and free market they ever sold to were lifestyle blokes who just wanted them for a bit of fun as urban runabouts.

Now they are building a product that won’t just appeal to Londoners but to people like them across the world. People who want some fun and have the disposable income to lob at it. LR have completely understood their market.

Good post.

Agreed.

What they have got chronically wrong though is failing the address the tiny and uneconomically viable market for blokes on Internet fora who buy knackered old cars third hand, outwith the dealer network and promptly hack them to bits to create home brew Frankenfourwheeldrives ......

I wonder which poster that could be?

[FiF]

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

Brooking10 said:

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

DonkeyApple said:

300, they sold where the British govt locked out all competition.

Hence why they sold in the colonies right up until those colonies became independent and the U.K. government lost the ability to block competition.

They sold well to the utility firms right up until those firms were nationalised and the U.K. government lost the ability to block out competition.

They sold well to the MOD until too many people died for the U.K. government to continue locking out competition.

They sold to U.K. farmers until the instant that cheaper and better products were available after the U.K. government dropped the tariffs that had kept them out.

The only fair and free market they ever sold to were lifestyle blokes who just wanted them for a bit of fun as urban runabouts.

Now they are building a product that won’t just appeal to Londoners but to people like them across the world. People who want some fun and have the disposable income to lob at it. LR have completely understood their market.

Good post.

Agreed.

What they have got chronically wrong though is failing the address the tiny and uneconomically viable market for blokes on Internet fora who buy knackered old cars third hand, outwith the dealer network and promptly hack them to bits to create home brew Frankenfourwheeldrives ......

I wonder which poster that could be?

Now now, we all know. We don't need yet another thread spoilt by 800 word posts including 50 off road pron images.

[warch]

DonkeyApple said:

300, they sold where the British govt locked out all competition.

Hence why they sold in the colonies right up until those colonies became independent and the U.K. government lost the ability to block competition.

They sold well to the utility firms right up until those firms were nationalised and the U.K. government lost the ability to block out competition.

They sold well to the MOD until too many people died for the U.K. government to continue locking out competition.

They sold to U.K. farmers until the instant that cheaper and better products were available after the U.K. government dropped the tariffs that had kept them out.

The only fair and free market they ever sold to were lifestyle blokes who just wanted them for a bit of fun as urban runabouts.

Now they are building a product that won’t just appeal to Londoners but to people like them across the world. People who want some fun and have the disposable income to lob at it. LR have completely understood their market.

I agree with this up to a point, but then why did utility and commercial users continued to buy Land Rover long after nationalisation had ended?

I was on a job only last week with a major regional overhead line company, they still use last of the line (15 and 16 plate) Defender 110s, including standard hardtop models, those ones with the special bodies for side access and cherry pickers.

I think the assumption about the urban lifestyle is correct but does reflect a rather narrow viewpoint. Yes there are loads of lifestyle owners of Defenders in London and the commuter belt/home counties but further afield they are also bought by people for work purposes.

Farmers went over to things like Daihatsu Fourtraks in the mid-90s but Defenders are much more common again now where I live (Mid-Welsh Borders). Based on perception most people who work on the land where I live either have a Japanese pickup. Defender and Discovery models are especially popular for heavy towing work as they can tow up to the 3.5 ton limit, although there are some other vehicles like the Isuzu pickup which can also tow up to this limit.

[ruggedscotty]

They have to work, whole thing about an off road vehicle is that they cant let you down, middle of a river or the top of a mountain isn't the best place to decided to have a mechanical flutter. The Landies although looked upon with affection were terrible ! you really really had to love them to put up with the follies and these days their reputation goes before them, and of course the locked markets have been opened up and the purse holders wont put up with crap these days.

can you imagine a company say that they put money in an unreliable vehicle and the people were left stranded when they could have bought a Japanese immortal that just don't die for 2/3 of the price fully kitted out ? nah me neither.

I worked over in Bosnia and have to say they were dogs, drive anywhere in them and they were all over the road, drove some of the Japanese efforts and those drove a lot better, no wandering about like the land rovers used to do. so unlink driving a car, you had to be on them all the time. very tiresome to drive any distance on the road.

[DonkeyApple]

The utility firms fished out to buy a handful as production came to an end. The reason being that they have some expensive and specialist kit which has plenty of life left in it that was designed to work from a Defender. So it remains cheaper to buy a Defender for that kit than replace the whole lot. When you see a utility company using a Defender it is usually for a very specific job.

What’s relevant to note is that if this were a sizeable market with a clear need then more competitive firms would have delivered a replacement but they haven’t. And the Decenders that are in use can be kept going for decades.

If you take a utility such as Thames Water. They are the biggest water and waste utility. They run a total fleet of 2000 vehicles. 1500 of those are vans. Around 300 are plant. Some of the 1500 LCV have got be Defenders and you’d expect the number to be a little higher for regional utilities with mountains etc and some of the plant will be Defenders but it’s miniscule. The transit van is the defacto workhorse of the utility industry.

BT Openreach? The transit.
All the electricity companies? The transit.

The Defender remains in tiny numbers under the specialist equipment niche. Whereas vans get replaced on very short life cycles, say 3 years the specialist equipment is typically kept for over a decade.

Blokes living in London wanting a fun car that is an anethema to the urban environment and people running lifestyle and tourist businesses were by far the largest consumer demographic in the final decade as all commercial buyers systematically became free to buy what was right for their business, customers and shareholders as the UK government stopped being able to control them and we moved towards the concept of free trade.

And as the Discovery has survived on the concept of restricted trade so the Range Rover boomed on the move towards free trade. The Disco spent its entire life living in benefits, lurching from one dependency to the next. This new one will follow in the footsteps on the Range Rover brand and be designed to sell from the outset into the competitive market place without mother State pulling the strings and keeping it alive.

And the best thing of all is that all the old Defenders still exist and we can go and buy as many as we want and do what we want with them.

But I do think some people blame these British firms and their changes to move with the times because they blame the firms that have changed those times and hold them accountable. The decline of Land Rover and the meteoric rise of Range Rover is an encapsulated tale of the change of global trade and society since the war, the end of Empire, the rise of globalisation. The aging of the West while the East rises rapidly. The growth in leisure time among Westerners and the massive expansion of spending power. In short, whether it’s good or bad, it’s the meteoric rise of the freedom of consumers to buy what they want combined with the entire globe being tarmacced so no one needs to extreme off-road for anything other than pleasure. To consumers the Defender is about fun but the product is to be built to the largest group of those consumers not the tiniest.