RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender - first sighting!
Discussion
I’m currently away green laning in Wales. There are 5 in our group. An 80” Series 1, my ‘79 Series III and 3 Defender 90’s/Ninety’s.
I hope the new Defender is design with this ability in mind. I’m sure “brand” new ones are unlikely to be used this way. But every new car becomes a used car.
The Welsh lanes are generally pretty small and tight. I probably wouldn’t take my p38 Range Rover down most we’ve done over the past few days. And a Disco 4 is way too big, fat and tall unless you are happy to accept body damage.
I hope the new Defender is design with this ability in mind. I’m sure “brand” new ones are unlikely to be used this way. But every new car becomes a used car.
The Welsh lanes are generally pretty small and tight. I probably wouldn’t take my p38 Range Rover down most we’ve done over the past few days. And a Disco 4 is way too big, fat and tall unless you are happy to accept body damage.
skyrover said:
Brooking10 said:
Point.
Missed.
Companies that are based on building cheap and simple cars are able to cost effectively make cheap and simple cars.
Companies that are based on making expensive and complex cars cannot suddenly, or even over a protracted period of time, cost effectively become manufacturers of cheap and simple cars.
The inverse of course equally applies.
Land Rover can't even built a reliable simple car.Missed.
Companies that are based on building cheap and simple cars are able to cost effectively make cheap and simple cars.
Companies that are based on making expensive and complex cars cannot suddenly, or even over a protracted period of time, cost effectively become manufacturers of cheap and simple cars.
The inverse of course equally applies.
What makes you think they can build a reliable complicated one?
I know it’s all very en vogue (pun semi intended) to assiduously bash LR reliability but at least try and do it in appropriate places old fruit.
kdri155 said:
Here's a few cropped photos from today the quality is better on the full image, this looks like a SWB version;
[url][url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/tk14rpZH[/url][url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/TH4fuj0v[/url]
I saw the same car, well a SWB in its camo get up, driving past Oswestry on the A483. It looked supprisingly small, at least compared to the outsize 4x4s that have become so common.[url][url]|https://thumbsnap.com/tk14rpZH[/url][url]|https://thumbsnap.com/TH4fuj0v[/url]skyrover said:
I was highlighting land rover need to get the basics right.
No point building a complicated vehicle, even if you think it's what the market wants, unless you can screw it together properly.
It's exactly how they threw away the simple, reliable and tough market to the Japanese.
The problem is that that has never been the Land Rover way. As you say, the moment the British Govt could no longer lock out the competition they smashed LR with cheaper build and better build. Even if the product wasn’t as versatile this utility transpired to be a futile advantage in the face of cost and reliability. No point building a complicated vehicle, even if you think it's what the market wants, unless you can screw it together properly.
It's exactly how they threw away the simple, reliable and tough market to the Japanese.
And regardless of whether we love our modern Range Rovers we all know that they are simply not as well screwed together as the competition. But whereas the utility of the Land Rover wasn’t enough to compete against those better and cheaper products, with the Range Rover and modern brand they have found that ‘luxury’, does.
Why don’t I buy a new Range Rover? Because I’m not spending £100k+ to then have to be involved with a dealership more than is absolutely necessary. Plus, I am fully aware of my temper and know that if Inwere to end up with one of the lemons then it, in turn, would end up in the living room of the chief engineer who lives in the next door village.
But while I look for quality, few consumers do these days. When was the last time you saw anyone buying a premium garment and checking the stitching or the quality of the cloth? It doesn’t happen. Those old type of consumer who looked for quality are gone. Consumers today look at the badge. And in the case of cars it’s badge and monthlies.
As for used vehicles filtering down to specialist enthusiasts, this is a much wider issue than JLR. Modern cars simply aren’t and won’t filter down in the same way. These cars aren’t miraculously going to cease to be mobile gadget nerds wet dreams just because they are twenty years old. And the local village mechanic who is brilliant at keeping modern cars going won’t be some old boy with missing teeth and a collection of old Imperial sockets but a twelve year old nerd.
These new Dedenders will rot and break just as quickly as the old Defenders but you’ll need an IT engineer to keep them going instead of a bloke with a socket set and hammer.
DonkeyApple said:
The problem is that that has never been the Land Rover way. As you say, the moment the British Govt could no longer lock out the competition they smashed LR with cheaper build and better build. Even if the product wasn’t as versatile this utility transpired to be a futile advantage in the face of cost and reliability.
And regardless of whether we love our modern Range Rovers we all know that they are simply not as well screwed together as the competition. But whereas the utility of the Land Rover wasn’t enough to compete against those better and cheaper products, with the Range Rover and modern brand they have found that ‘luxury’, does.
Why don’t I buy a new Range Rover? Because I’m not spending £100k+ to then have to be involved with a dealership more than is absolutely necessary. Plus, I am fully aware of my temper and know that if Inwere to end up with one of the lemons then it, in turn, would end up in the living room of the chief engineer who lives in the next door village.
But while I look for quality, few consumers do these days. When was the last time you saw anyone buying a premium garment and checking the stitching or the quality of the cloth? It doesn’t happen. Those old type of consumer who looked for quality are gone. Consumers today look at the badge. And in the case of cars it’s badge and monthlies.
As for used vehicles filtering down to specialist enthusiasts, this is a much wider issue than JLR. Modern cars simply aren’t and won’t filter down in the same way. These cars aren’t miraculously going to cease to be mobile gadget nerds wet dreams just because they are twenty years old. And the local village mechanic who is brilliant at keeping modern cars going won’t be some old boy with missing teeth and a collection of old Imperial sockets but a twelve year old nerd.
These new Dedenders will rot and break just as quickly as the old Defenders but you’ll need an IT engineer to keep them going instead of a bloke with a socket set and hammer.
The problem I see is that this is a very short term attitude.And regardless of whether we love our modern Range Rovers we all know that they are simply not as well screwed together as the competition. But whereas the utility of the Land Rover wasn’t enough to compete against those better and cheaper products, with the Range Rover and modern brand they have found that ‘luxury’, does.
Why don’t I buy a new Range Rover? Because I’m not spending £100k+ to then have to be involved with a dealership more than is absolutely necessary. Plus, I am fully aware of my temper and know that if Inwere to end up with one of the lemons then it, in turn, would end up in the living room of the chief engineer who lives in the next door village.
But while I look for quality, few consumers do these days. When was the last time you saw anyone buying a premium garment and checking the stitching or the quality of the cloth? It doesn’t happen. Those old type of consumer who looked for quality are gone. Consumers today look at the badge. And in the case of cars it’s badge and monthlies.
As for used vehicles filtering down to specialist enthusiasts, this is a much wider issue than JLR. Modern cars simply aren’t and won’t filter down in the same way. These cars aren’t miraculously going to cease to be mobile gadget nerds wet dreams just because they are twenty years old. And the local village mechanic who is brilliant at keeping modern cars going won’t be some old boy with missing teeth and a collection of old Imperial sockets but a twelve year old nerd.
These new Dedenders will rot and break just as quickly as the old Defenders but you’ll need an IT engineer to keep them going instead of a bloke with a socket set and hammer.
Yes you might attract new customers, but you will drive them away if their car is constantly needing expensive repairs. You wont get repeat custom as even loyal customers will give up after their 3rd or 4th lemon.
Look how many rural folk are driving Japanese premium SUV's or luxury pickups these day's instead of Discovery's and Range rovers. They've simply had enough.
Most will keep a few old Defenders and Isuzu's around the farmyard as workhorses.
Edited by skyrover on Sunday 23 June 11:54
Unfortunately that’s flawed logic because of basic economics. JLR is not a stack em high, sell em cheap enterprise. The bottom end rural market is not a market that is open to them regardless of what product they make. The market that is available to a UK based, mid volume manufacturer is the premium market. JLR must make premium products that carry sufficient margins to cover the low volumes and high manufacturing cost. And there is no reward in slashing those margins to make a premium product last much longer than the 2x3 debt cycle as that is exactly what the current consumer demands.
It’s provincial and illogical thinking to believe there is a commercial market in selling high cost product to low income consumers. As you clearly point out above, the low income consumers are buying the low cost products.
UK workers don’t work for a bowl of rice a day, live in third world homes, with third world living costs and work at factories with third world land pricing. So that’s the cost argument dead in the water.
JLR don’t have the balance sheet to offer the competitive debt financing required at the bottom of the market so that is any consumer competitive advantage dead in the water.
And JLR don’t have the global market place to shift the number of units required to run a high volume, low margin business so that is dead in the water.
And the final nail in the coffin is that JLRs market is not low income earners in the UK regions. Their market is high income earners in China, North America and Europe. These individuals live in urban and semi urban environments and those local markets all have local high volume, low cost manufacturers that cater for the lower income earners.
If you think that JLR can build a cheap vehicle in the UK and ship it to China or the US or even the EU and even begin to compete against the local manufacturers before we even start to consider trying to compete on consumer debt funding then you’re bonkers.
It’s provincial and illogical thinking to believe there is a commercial market in selling high cost product to low income consumers. As you clearly point out above, the low income consumers are buying the low cost products.
UK workers don’t work for a bowl of rice a day, live in third world homes, with third world living costs and work at factories with third world land pricing. So that’s the cost argument dead in the water.
JLR don’t have the balance sheet to offer the competitive debt financing required at the bottom of the market so that is any consumer competitive advantage dead in the water.
And JLR don’t have the global market place to shift the number of units required to run a high volume, low margin business so that is dead in the water.
And the final nail in the coffin is that JLRs market is not low income earners in the UK regions. Their market is high income earners in China, North America and Europe. These individuals live in urban and semi urban environments and those local markets all have local high volume, low cost manufacturers that cater for the lower income earners.
If you think that JLR can build a cheap vehicle in the UK and ship it to China or the US or even the EU and even begin to compete against the local manufacturers before we even start to consider trying to compete on consumer debt funding then you’re bonkers.
I think you missed the point of my argument.
Land rover will loose the luxury market in the same way they lost they utility market. By building s
t.
By all means chase the newly affluent, perhaps nieve market, but the chickens will eventually come home to roost and they will have nothing to fall back on.
They dont have to build a cheap product, but they do have to build a good one. At the moment, they dont.
Land rover will loose the luxury market in the same way they lost they utility market. By building s
t.By all means chase the newly affluent, perhaps nieve market, but the chickens will eventually come home to roost and they will have nothing to fall back on.
They dont have to build a cheap product, but they do have to build a good one. At the moment, they dont.
skyrover said:
I think you missed the point of my argument.
Land rover will loose the luxury market in the same way they lost they utility market. By building st.
By all means chase the newly affluent, perhaps neive market, but the chickens will eventually come home to roost and they will gave nothing to fall back on.
They dont have to build a cheap product, but they do have to build a good one. At the moment, they dont.
But I think you missed my earlier point that they are between a rock and a hard place. The current consumer is not demanding a product that lasts beyond the 2 by 3 debt cycle and JLR is not in a position to start building a product which their core consumer market is not demanding. Consumers like myself are not currently profitable for how their business operates but I am in a group that is not large enough to be remotely viable. Land rover will loose the luxury market in the same way they lost they utility market. By building s
t.By all means chase the newly affluent, perhaps neive market, but the chickens will eventually come home to roost and they will gave nothing to fall back on.
They dont have to build a cheap product, but they do have to build a good one. At the moment, they dont.
skyrover said:
Yes you might attract new customers, but you will drive them away if their car is constantly needing expensive repairs. You wont get repeat custom as even loyal customers will give up after their 3rd or 4th lemon.
Look how many rural folk are driving Japanese premium SUV's or luxury pickups these day's instead of Discovery's and Range rovers. They've simply had enough.
But Land Rovers have never been known for their reliability. Look how many rural folk are driving Japanese premium SUV's or luxury pickups these day's instead of Discovery's and Range rovers. They've simply had enough.
Edited by skyrover on Sunday 23 June 11:54
Hate to repeat the tired old joke but even the Series / Defender models were mocked with " but if you want to come back again you need a Toyota "
I wonder whether those rural folk chose a Japanese SUV or pickup because of the reliability or whether its because people now pay 50-200% more for a Discovery or Range Rover than for those cars.
There’s speculation in the US media that Lego have ‘let the cat out of the bag’ with the image I posted above. Even reports of take down notices. More...
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/lego-technic-la...
https://www.motor1.com/news/356081/2020-land-rover...
Let’s see what happens here.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/lego-technic-la...
https://www.motor1.com/news/356081/2020-land-rover...
Let’s see what happens here.
Edited by Rudolph Hart on Monday 24th June 07:35
Edited by Rudolph Hart on Monday 24th June 07:38
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