RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender - first sighting!
Discussion
Looking closely at those photos it's pretty apparent that JLR in their 'wisdom' have decided to do away with the live axle setup. This places the Defender replacement comfortably in the ranks of all the other soft-roader garbage which has come to fill the SUV/Crossover/Part-time offroader segment. Really a shame they've done this despite the opportunity to build something truly capable, interesting and (almost) unique.
That leaves pretty much the Jeep Wrangler in a class of it's own, and all the better for it. I for one will not be partaking in this JLR off-road-failure wagon. Better on road, much worse off road. Nope. Nopey nope McNope.
Gifted that whole segment to Fiat Chrysler Automobile. Good job JLR.
That leaves pretty much the Jeep Wrangler in a class of it's own, and all the better for it. I for one will not be partaking in this JLR off-road-failure wagon. Better on road, much worse off road. Nope. Nopey nope McNope.
Gifted that whole segment to Fiat Chrysler Automobile. Good job JLR.
Teuchter said:
What we're looking at here with the new defender is an illusion of a utility vehicle and has been said, why build cheap with a small margin when you can spend a tiny bit more to get better than the predecessor and (which will be so easy to pick parameters the new version is better than) sell at a premium. Building a premium vehicle cheap is very difficult but Toyota has managed it. You can get a Toyota 70 series for $25k, I'll probably keep buying them then, shame, I would love to buy a British vehicle one day.
Nailed it. What this chap said. Especially here in the US. I would MUCH rather support JLR than be yet another Jeep, but this really isn't an option.Perfectly stated "an illusion of a utility vehicle".
Willy Nilly said:
matbat said:
Willy Nilly said:
matbat said:
That status comes with 67years of history (much of which was unrivalled in its class) which I suspect will not be the case with the new Defender.
b
ks is it unrivalled. When was the last time you saw a Defender on the news with a rocket launcher bolted in the back? When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover. Willy Nilly said:
When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover.
Seemed good enough for our armed forces...The basic design and idea of the Defender was good, but they were never developed beyond what they had to do to keep selling them and were expensive, unreliable and uncomfortable.
Land Rover simply will no compete with the Hilux, not now, not ever.
C70R said:
legless said:
we just couldn't make the business case work for what was (and still is) a relatively tiny market for utility 4x4s
This is the point that most PHers living in cloud cuckoo land seem to spectacularly miss. The tiny minority who say things like "Is it even a real offroader/LR if it doesn't have X, Y or Z" are absolutely hilarious. Not only do they not see how tiny a minority of car buyers they represent, meaning that a sustainable business case would be borderline impossible based on them. But they are also seldom the people with the means/will to buy new cars, making their objections largely irrelevant.The country is awash with Toy Town SUV's that aren't robust enough to cope with utility work, so do we need another one, which is what this will end up as?
Willy Nilly said:
Toyota sold 517,000 Hilux last year. Every time you put on the news and there's a war or some natural disaster there's a Hilux delivering aid, medical supplies or guns. Ford, Toyota, Isuzu and Nissan all think the UK is worth selling utility vehicles into and the reason Land Rover don't is because they never developed the Defender or its brand.
The country is awash with Toy Town SUV's that aren't robust enough to cope with utility work, so do we need another one, which is what this will end up as?
We don’t need 95% of the cars currently sold today.The country is awash with Toy Town SUV's that aren't robust enough to cope with utility work, so do we need another one, which is what this will end up as?
The market likes variety.
Alternatively we could all drive Wartburgs as they function perfectly acceptably as motorised transport.
As for the constant HiLux comparisons Toyota and the other manufacturers you mention all have distinct commercial vehicle operations. Land Rover doesn’t and as far as one can tell has neither need nor desire to enter this market.
Lastly if this new Defender is what it seems to be, a more practical, more robust alternative to the current D5 then we’ll be buying one.
Willy Nilly said:
C70R said:
legless said:
we just couldn't make the business case work for what was (and still is) a relatively tiny market for utility 4x4s
This is the point that most PHers living in cloud cuckoo land seem to spectacularly miss. The tiny minority who say things like "Is it even a real offroader/LR if it doesn't have X, Y or Z" are absolutely hilarious. Not only do they not see how tiny a minority of car buyers they represent, meaning that a sustainable business case would be borderline impossible based on them. But they are also seldom the people with the means/will to buy new cars, making their objections largely irrelevant.The country is awash with Toy Town SUV's that aren't robust enough to cope with utility work, so do we need another one, which is what this will end up as?
The G Wagen sells around 20k units annually. Even the Land Cruiser 70 series only sells around 75k units, the vast majority of which are outside of LR's core European and US markets (only around 10k Land Cruisers of all varieties were sold last year in the US and Europe).
The fact is, for a manufacturer of Land Rover's scale and their current market reach, and for that price point in the market, it's just not achievable for them. Breaking into established markets and winning market share from established competitors is tough. When that market is relatively small in the first place, the risk vastly outstrips the potential reward. They just don't have the scale or the resources to stomach a failed attempt in the same way that the larger manufacturers do.
LimaDelta said:
Willy Nilly said:
matbat said:
Willy Nilly said:
matbat said:
That status comes with 67years of history (much of which was unrivalled in its class) which I suspect will not be the case with the new Defender.
bks is it unrivalled. When was the last time you saw a Defender on the news with a rocket launcher bolted in the back? When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover. Willy Nilly said:
When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover.
Seemed good enough for our armed forces...The basic design and idea of the Defender was good, but they were never developed beyond what they had to do to keep selling them and were expensive, unreliable and uncomfortable.
Land Rover simply will no compete with the Hilux, not now, not ever.
legless said:
You miss the point. As someone else has already pointed out, the Defender isn't in the same market as the Hilux. It's competing with the G Wagen and the Landcruiser 70.
The G Wagen sells around 20k units annually. Even the Land Cruiser 70 series only sells around 75k units, the vast majority of which are outside of LR's core European and US markets (only around 10k Land Cruisers of all varieties were sold last year in the US and Europe).
The fact is, for a manufacturer of Land Rover's scale and their current market reach, and for that price point in the market, it's just not achievable for them. Breaking into established markets and winning market share from established competitors is tough. When that market is relatively small in the first place, the risk vastly outstrips the potential reward. They just don't have the scale or the resources to stomach a failed attempt in the same way that the larger manufacturers do.
Good post.The G Wagen sells around 20k units annually. Even the Land Cruiser 70 series only sells around 75k units, the vast majority of which are outside of LR's core European and US markets (only around 10k Land Cruisers of all varieties were sold last year in the US and Europe).
The fact is, for a manufacturer of Land Rover's scale and their current market reach, and for that price point in the market, it's just not achievable for them. Breaking into established markets and winning market share from established competitors is tough. When that market is relatively small in the first place, the risk vastly outstrips the potential reward. They just don't have the scale or the resources to stomach a failed attempt in the same way that the larger manufacturers do.
The constantly regurgitated “this is what they should do” bleating on LR related threads betrays a fundamental lack of commmetcial understanding. The supreme irony being it comes almost exclusively from people who wouldn’t dream of buying the product from new anyway.
FiF said:
LimaDelta said:
Willy Nilly said:
matbat said:
Willy Nilly said:
matbat said:
That status comes with 67years of history (much of which was unrivalled in its class) which I suspect will not be the case with the new Defender.
bks is it unrivalled. When was the last time you saw a Defender on the news with a rocket launcher bolted in the back? When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover. Willy Nilly said:
When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover.
Seemed good enough for our armed forces...The basic design and idea of the Defender was good, but they were never developed beyond what they had to do to keep selling them and were expensive, unreliable and uncomfortable.
Land Rover simply will no compete with the Hilux, not now, not ever.
Who on earth are you people talking about "utility vehicles" and "varied terrain"? JLR doesn't recognise you as potential customers, and there are numerous alternatives available in the market if you had the means to explore this niches in a brand new car.
As for the off-road abilities of the new LR models, there are any number of videos on YouTube demonstrating that the Disco 4 is very capable in tough terrain. It just feels like people raising objections that don't really exist for 99.9% of people - how very PH...
As for the off-road abilities of the new LR models, there are any number of videos on YouTube demonstrating that the Disco 4 is very capable in tough terrain. It just feels like people raising objections that don't really exist for 99.9% of people - how very PH...
Brooking10 said:
We don’t need 95% of the cars currently sold today.
The market likes variety.
Alternatively we could all drive Wartburgs as they function perfectly acceptably as motorised transport.
As for the constant HiLux comparisons Toyota and the other manufacturers you mention all have distinct commercial vehicle operations. Land Rover doesn’t and as far as one can tell has neither need nor desire to enter this market.
Lastly if this new Defender is what it seems to be, a more practical, more robust alternative to the current D5 then we’ll be buying one.
Very fair comment, especially the last sentence. Have said a number of times never going to buy another from JLR, various reasons. But then, as first said I believe in Pickwick Papers, "never say never."The market likes variety.
Alternatively we could all drive Wartburgs as they function perfectly acceptably as motorised transport.
As for the constant HiLux comparisons Toyota and the other manufacturers you mention all have distinct commercial vehicle operations. Land Rover doesn’t and as far as one can tell has neither need nor desire to enter this market.
Lastly if this new Defender is what it seems to be, a more practical, more robust alternative to the current D5 then we’ll be buying one.
I suspect, possibly fear being totally honest, that the price will be far more than willing to stomach, but we will see.
legless said:
I worked on the mid-2000s stillborn attempt to replace the Defender (L383 was the code name). It was to be built on the same T5 platform as the L319/L320 cousins, which would have retained a ladder chassis, but would have had IRS.
Interestingly, one of the programme assumptions at the time was that it would use the coil spring suspension of the base model Discovery rather than the more adjustable air springs, all driven by cost.
Ultimately, the programme was canned at a relatively early stage, as we just couldn't make the business case work for what was (and still is) a relatively tiny market for utility 4x4s.
[b]The Defender was doubly hurt by the lack of product investment. It gradually lost its competitiveness, while also cementing the idea in people's heads about what a Defender should be (i.e. if it never changes, that's how it should be).
Try to imagine what a Defender would look like today, had it received the proper level of investment. When it went out of production 2 years ago, it was essentially the same vehicle as the 1980s 90 and 110. Normally, a car would have had at least 4 or even 5 ground-up redesigns in that period.
[b]Interestingly, one of the programme assumptions at the time was that it would use the coil spring suspension of the base model Discovery rather than the more adjustable air springs, all driven by cost.
Ultimately, the programme was canned at a relatively early stage, as we just couldn't make the business case work for what was (and still is) a relatively tiny market for utility 4x4s.
[b]The Defender was doubly hurt by the lack of product investment. It gradually lost its competitiveness, while also cementing the idea in people's heads about what a Defender should be (i.e. if it never changes, that's how it should be).
Try to imagine what a Defender would look like today, had it received the proper level of investment. When it went out of production 2 years ago, it was essentially the same vehicle as the 1980s 90 and 110. Normally, a car would have had at least 4 or even 5 ground-up redesigns in that period.
Exactly this. It wasn't really THAT great at what its meant for when it was new. (for the sake of argument lets say that's when the Defender name was adopted) It has definitely stagnated in 30ish years. All its had is engine upgrades and a few minor refinements inside. Like you say if it had received proper updates it wouldn't look anything like it did in the late 80s. Look how much the discovery and range rover have changed in the same time period.
If they had kept up at the same pace, it could be competing with the pickups that dominate the market it was designed to occupy.
legless said:
You miss the point. As someone else has already pointed out, the Defender isn't in the same market as the Hilux. It's competing with the G Wagen and the Landcruiser 70.
The G Wagen sells around 20k units annually. Even the Land Cruiser 70 series only sells around 75k units, the vast majority of which are outside of LR's core European and US markets (only around 10k Land Cruisers of all varieties were sold last year in the US and Europe).
The fact is, for a manufacturer of Land Rover's scale and their current market reach, and for that price point in the market, it's just not achievable for them. Breaking into established markets and winning market share from established competitors is tough. When that market is relatively small in the first place, the risk vastly outstrips the potential reward. They just don't have the scale or the resources to stomach a failed attempt in the same way that the larger manufacturers do.
The people that were buying Defenders are now buying Jap pickups, hence the Hilux comparison. Why couldn't a Defender type 4wd van (which I think are more useful) use the same chassis as a pickup? It's going to be yet another tarts handbag not a utility vehicle for chucking a chainsaw/dead sheep/cans of diesel in the back of. The G Wagen sells around 20k units annually. Even the Land Cruiser 70 series only sells around 75k units, the vast majority of which are outside of LR's core European and US markets (only around 10k Land Cruisers of all varieties were sold last year in the US and Europe).
The fact is, for a manufacturer of Land Rover's scale and their current market reach, and for that price point in the market, it's just not achievable for them. Breaking into established markets and winning market share from established competitors is tough. When that market is relatively small in the first place, the risk vastly outstrips the potential reward. They just don't have the scale or the resources to stomach a failed attempt in the same way that the larger manufacturers do.
As much as I agree; To all those saying the new Defender has to be a low-tech utility model.
Have you stepped into an LR dealer recently? I popped in to get an oil filter and felt like I had to wipe my feet. When I asked the receptionist for ‘parts’, she looked surprised. I felt like I’d be escorted off the premises.
I can’t see a farmer sitting waiting on leather sofas sipping little thimbles of coffee.
A good friend of mine, an agricultural chap, has a very late old defender and still visits LR. He loves getting their showroom floor muddy. He said last time he went in for his service, workshop advised him ‘not to clog his brakes up with mud’.
I think it’s safe to say LR have abandoned the utility market.
Have you stepped into an LR dealer recently? I popped in to get an oil filter and felt like I had to wipe my feet. When I asked the receptionist for ‘parts’, she looked surprised. I felt like I’d be escorted off the premises.
I can’t see a farmer sitting waiting on leather sofas sipping little thimbles of coffee.
A good friend of mine, an agricultural chap, has a very late old defender and still visits LR. He loves getting their showroom floor muddy. He said last time he went in for his service, workshop advised him ‘not to clog his brakes up with mud’.
I think it’s safe to say LR have abandoned the utility market.
Willy Nilly said:
legless said:
You miss the point. As someone else has already pointed out, the Defender isn't in the same market as the Hilux. It's competing with the G Wagen and the Landcruiser 70.
The G Wagen sells around 20k units annually. Even the Land Cruiser 70 series only sells around 75k units, the vast majority of which are outside of LR's core European and US markets (only around 10k Land Cruisers of all varieties were sold last year in the US and Europe).
The fact is, for a manufacturer of Land Rover's scale and their current market reach, and for that price point in the market, it's just not achievable for them. Breaking into established markets and winning market share from established competitors is tough. When that market is relatively small in the first place, the risk vastly outstrips the potential reward. They just don't have the scale or the resources to stomach a failed attempt in the same way that the larger manufacturers do.
The people that were buying Defenders are now buying Jap pickups, hence the Hilux comparison. Why couldn't a Defender type 4wd van (which I think are more useful) use the same chassis as a pickup? It's going to be yet another tarts handbag not a utility vehicle for chucking a chainsaw/dead sheep/cans of diesel in the back of. The G Wagen sells around 20k units annually. Even the Land Cruiser 70 series only sells around 75k units, the vast majority of which are outside of LR's core European and US markets (only around 10k Land Cruisers of all varieties were sold last year in the US and Europe).
The fact is, for a manufacturer of Land Rover's scale and their current market reach, and for that price point in the market, it's just not achievable for them. Breaking into established markets and winning market share from established competitors is tough. When that market is relatively small in the first place, the risk vastly outstrips the potential reward. They just don't have the scale or the resources to stomach a failed attempt in the same way that the larger manufacturers do.
I ran two Discovery 3's as a 'utility' vehicle. IMHO, prior to the Disco 4, you could still, just about, call the Discovery utilitarian. The whole model range is now too bling. I never had a D4, but instead had a Defender 110.
In the absence of new products, people who want all terrain load lugging have tried all sorts of vehicles and most of the will highlight deficiencies in the venerable (and lovable) Defender. We still one one Defender in the company, but have also had all sorts of other things alongside; Navaras, HiLuxes, and even 4x4 VW Transporters.
If the new Defender is going to succeed, LR have to go back to their roots and, as jay-kay-em says above, the dealerships need to figure out a way to better welcome muddy boots.
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