Car swap - who wants an AMG Merc for 3 months?
Discussion
Oscar India, I'd be dissapointed if you didn't use my car as intended on the long schlep down from your environs oop north! RS6 is faster, as Chris Harris comprehensively proved. Doesn't make as good a noise, though, and feels far less nice inside. I may still have bought one, but second hand they are 50% more expensive than the CLS or E 63 AMG. Which makes the Mercedes something of a bargain, in my eyes.
So, some initial impressions, having driven the RR through London traffic to get Junior her US passport this morning. They are obviously very different cars, but I don’t have a lot of experience with luxury 4x4s, so:
THE GOOD
- That imperious driving position is damned useful in town, mainly as you can see cyclists and other two wheelers over the other cars. I remember this from my Defender, but you genuinely feel above it all. The car is also very easy to place/park, as you can see the front corners really easily.
- It feels really airy and light inside, despite the black interior: that would be the big glass area and low waistline relative to where you perch.
- The gearbox is very smooth, and delivery from the engine is smooth too (3.6 TDV8)
- Boot space is excellent. Height, really. I just chucked the pram in the back without bothering to fold it.
Summary: all of the above make the car a lot easier to drive in London than my CLS. The ’63 suffers from poor visibility, which really emphasises it’s width and length, and jerky delivery at low speeds from the combination of a pretty snarly V8, clunky gearbox, and that LSD at the back. The RR is a much more pleasant place to be in town traffic.
THE BAD
- Hilariously vague steering
- Interior quality that is a real step down from the 63AMG. The plastics are hard, and the switchgear feels flimsy after the Merc’s aniline leather, premium plastics and milled aluminium vents/switchgear
- Ride quality that is not actually that good. It’s a bit choppy and bouncy – hard when you don’t want it to be (speed bumps) and soft when you want something firm (corners). And this car has had its air suspension bags replaced.
- You really can tell it is a diesel – it’s smooth, but you get that clattery noise at certain revs. And it feels a bit laggy after the rabid throttle response of the CLS
THE UGLY
I am a bald, brown man with a shaven head, and so people seem to assume I am a drug dealer. Everyone, and I mean everyone, gives way to me in this car. I’m OK with this sort of racial profiling. Until I get pulled over by the cops.
CONCLUSION SO FAR
The CLS just makes you giggle a lot more, but we probably all knew that would be the case. What is more surprising is just how much more luxurious the Mercedes feels inside – but they are different generations of vehicle, I suppose.
Objectively, the TDV8 FFRR is a significantly better town car than the CLS63 AMG in almost every way, which is surprising. Subjectively, the Merc has it, but really only because of interior quality and drivetrain. A Supercharged Rangie would remedy the latter, for sure - I can see why people buy those, even though they seem like an insanely expensive way to get around the place in fuel costs.
Of course, come the Alps, FFRR will really come into its own. It imparts a feeling of serenity and security, even on the streets of London.
So, some initial impressions, having driven the RR through London traffic to get Junior her US passport this morning. They are obviously very different cars, but I don’t have a lot of experience with luxury 4x4s, so:
THE GOOD
- That imperious driving position is damned useful in town, mainly as you can see cyclists and other two wheelers over the other cars. I remember this from my Defender, but you genuinely feel above it all. The car is also very easy to place/park, as you can see the front corners really easily.
- It feels really airy and light inside, despite the black interior: that would be the big glass area and low waistline relative to where you perch.
- The gearbox is very smooth, and delivery from the engine is smooth too (3.6 TDV8)
- Boot space is excellent. Height, really. I just chucked the pram in the back without bothering to fold it.
Summary: all of the above make the car a lot easier to drive in London than my CLS. The ’63 suffers from poor visibility, which really emphasises it’s width and length, and jerky delivery at low speeds from the combination of a pretty snarly V8, clunky gearbox, and that LSD at the back. The RR is a much more pleasant place to be in town traffic.
THE BAD
- Hilariously vague steering
- Interior quality that is a real step down from the 63AMG. The plastics are hard, and the switchgear feels flimsy after the Merc’s aniline leather, premium plastics and milled aluminium vents/switchgear
- Ride quality that is not actually that good. It’s a bit choppy and bouncy – hard when you don’t want it to be (speed bumps) and soft when you want something firm (corners). And this car has had its air suspension bags replaced.
- You really can tell it is a diesel – it’s smooth, but you get that clattery noise at certain revs. And it feels a bit laggy after the rabid throttle response of the CLS
THE UGLY
I am a bald, brown man with a shaven head, and so people seem to assume I am a drug dealer. Everyone, and I mean everyone, gives way to me in this car. I’m OK with this sort of racial profiling. Until I get pulled over by the cops.
CONCLUSION SO FAR
The CLS just makes you giggle a lot more, but we probably all knew that would be the case. What is more surprising is just how much more luxurious the Mercedes feels inside – but they are different generations of vehicle, I suppose.
Objectively, the TDV8 FFRR is a significantly better town car than the CLS63 AMG in almost every way, which is surprising. Subjectively, the Merc has it, but really only because of interior quality and drivetrain. A Supercharged Rangie would remedy the latter, for sure - I can see why people buy those, even though they seem like an insanely expensive way to get around the place in fuel costs.
Of course, come the Alps, FFRR will really come into its own. It imparts a feeling of serenity and security, even on the streets of London.
Edited by Harry Flashman on Monday 26th November 17:34
On another note, this thread really has delivered so far: thanks PH and, in particular, Hoolio.
If all goes well, I think that when something two-seater and amusing finds its way back into my garage one day (probably another Morgan Aero or Caterham as they are so deliciously mental), I may run something similar for a few weeks over a summer...
If all goes well, I think that when something two-seater and amusing finds its way back into my garage one day (probably another Morgan Aero or Caterham as they are so deliciously mental), I may run something similar for a few weeks over a summer...
Another thing - I can't quite believe what value these Range Rovers represent. A quick look in the classifieds shows a number of TDV8 4.4s for well under £20k, and the rarer supercharged is available for a similar price of you are willing to go older. However, having spoken to the owner about the costs of fixing them, I can understand the poor residuals. But an Audi RS/Mercedes AMG will be similarly brutal on the wallet ehen replacing bits on it - and 2012 RS6s are still twice the price of an equivalent L322.
Lady F is telling me that she would quite like one of these permanently instead of the CLS (so that's backfired on me quite badly). But that does mean some money left over for the aforementioned Caterham, so...
Lady F is telling me that she would quite like one of these permanently instead of the CLS (so that's backfired on me quite badly). But that does mean some money left over for the aforementioned Caterham, so...
So the first trial has arrived!
The L322 has had a new steering rack, and somehow that has caused something else in the system (we think pump) to throw a hissy fit. The power steering gave up the ghost yesterday and I discovered the joys of parking a 2.7 tonne vehicle without power assistance, in a busy London street!
After making sure it was parked somewhere safe and where it could stay (no parking restrictions, not always easy to find in town), I jumped on the phone to the owner who, being a good chap and generally nice fellow is having my car delivered back to me on a low loader, and the Rangie taken away. No harm done - it is parked outside a friend's house a mere mile from home, safe and sound, and I got a lift back (and thus proceeded to have a few glasses of wine as I was no longer driving - every cloud has a silver lining, right?).
We are hoping to get it sorted, but I am obviously a little wary of the vehicle now. This happening in a residential street in London was no big deal, but would be a bit more of an issue on a steep, icy mountain road, or indeed the Autoroute.
Just in case no fast solution presents itself, I have e-mailed a couple of you other chaps who offered cars. Herbs' Q7 looks very appealing right now, for its size, seating capacity, and some Audi reliability...
But the idiot in me (who has undeserved faith in JLR products, it seems) is wondering if NDA was serious about his Supercharged RR...
The L322 has had a new steering rack, and somehow that has caused something else in the system (we think pump) to throw a hissy fit. The power steering gave up the ghost yesterday and I discovered the joys of parking a 2.7 tonne vehicle without power assistance, in a busy London street!
After making sure it was parked somewhere safe and where it could stay (no parking restrictions, not always easy to find in town), I jumped on the phone to the owner who, being a good chap and generally nice fellow is having my car delivered back to me on a low loader, and the Rangie taken away. No harm done - it is parked outside a friend's house a mere mile from home, safe and sound, and I got a lift back (and thus proceeded to have a few glasses of wine as I was no longer driving - every cloud has a silver lining, right?).
We are hoping to get it sorted, but I am obviously a little wary of the vehicle now. This happening in a residential street in London was no big deal, but would be a bit more of an issue on a steep, icy mountain road, or indeed the Autoroute.
Just in case no fast solution presents itself, I have e-mailed a couple of you other chaps who offered cars. Herbs' Q7 looks very appealing right now, for its size, seating capacity, and some Audi reliability...
But the idiot in me (who has undeserved faith in JLR products, it seems) is wondering if NDA was serious about his Supercharged RR...
Edited by Harry Flashman on Monday 3rd December 14:18
akirk said:
So, just out of interest - had it been your car what would you have done?
Having owned 5 range rovers I would have seen that as a minor issue - fixed it and carried on - with any LR product - a fix usually makes it better than new for that component
I think Hoolio and I are both planning on fixing and carrying on, actually. We get on well with each other and cost isn't an issue. He wants the car back rather than letting me get it done as the garage who did the original work need to rectify this. The challenge is whether it can all get done in time (with testing time - I don't want to test the repair on the trip down) and if not, I'd like to take up someone else's kind offer, if it still stands, as a backup plan.Having owned 5 range rovers I would have seen that as a minor issue - fixed it and carried on - with any LR product - a fix usually makes it better than new for that component
The irony of all of this is that this RR really has been loved and had money spent on it. As you say, fixing a known car is probably the way to go.
Worst comes to the worst, the Merc comes to France...and I hopefully borrow OscarIndia's Espace when he's not around. As he said, it's like those old Top Gear challenges...
Fermit - I think you're right on the leather point (this is your area of expertise, after all!) As it's cream leather it is hard to tell, but it definitely doesn't feel porous. I'll have a look when the car comes back this Wednesday.
Edited by Harry Flashman on Monday 3rd December 20:31
The mission continues. No lack of drama, here. My car was delivered by Hoolio and his kind friend on the same trailer this morning. The blue RR Sport in the photo apparently had the same issue, so we are rather hoping that it is a common fix.
However, time is now running way with us as Christmas and numerous obligations/events approach so on Hoolio's sugestion, I have tried to organise something else. Will update you if this gets anywhere, but the chap I have chatted on e-mail has other cars, and probably won't use my car in bad weather as it's not great at the mud and water you get in his rural location. However, he is going to Spain in spring, and I have to say that the CLS is absolutely made for such a road trip - so I hope he takes it!
In the meantime, a couple of other folk on the thread have also kindly responded to my appeals for a second round, and both LDN and OscarIndia have very kindly re-iterated their offers of using the cars they keep out in the mountains. I will respond properly chaps, but thought it would be worth thanking you again, on here...PH, as I have said, really does deliver some great generosity sometimes, and I fully intend to repay it when able.
Sometimes, you really only get the measure of someone or a situation when things went wrong. This whole situation has been dealt with by Hoolio (and, I hope me) with a sense of humour and relentless efficiency. Definitely a bloke I will be having a beer with in the future.
In the meantime, somewhere in SW16...I hope the boys made it home!
2018-12-05_05-10-46 by baconrashers, on Flickr
However, time is now running way with us as Christmas and numerous obligations/events approach so on Hoolio's sugestion, I have tried to organise something else. Will update you if this gets anywhere, but the chap I have chatted on e-mail has other cars, and probably won't use my car in bad weather as it's not great at the mud and water you get in his rural location. However, he is going to Spain in spring, and I have to say that the CLS is absolutely made for such a road trip - so I hope he takes it!
In the meantime, a couple of other folk on the thread have also kindly responded to my appeals for a second round, and both LDN and OscarIndia have very kindly re-iterated their offers of using the cars they keep out in the mountains. I will respond properly chaps, but thought it would be worth thanking you again, on here...PH, as I have said, really does deliver some great generosity sometimes, and I fully intend to repay it when able.
Sometimes, you really only get the measure of someone or a situation when things went wrong. This whole situation has been dealt with by Hoolio (and, I hope me) with a sense of humour and relentless efficiency. Definitely a bloke I will be having a beer with in the future.
In the meantime, somewhere in SW16...I hope the boys made it home!
2018-12-05_05-10-46 by baconrashers, on FlickrOscarIndia - it lurks indeed! That said, if it needs running/starting occasionally for you whilst I am out there, I'd be happy to do that, and make sure it's all working before you and the family get in on your trips. Not sure if someone does that for you - if not, happy to do so. Same with making sure the heating on and there is some stuff in the fridge/wine rack. About time I repaid your generosity!
Part of the reason for doing the swap is having something capable of taking all our ski gear, baby gear, our gear plus infant and car seat. The CLS just is not big enough (long load area but low, and with a small loading aperture). I could buy rails and a roofbox for it of course, but then this thread would not exist, and where is the fun in that? It will also then just end up sitting outside in below zero temps for the whole winter, unused. Not ideal.
Anyway, time for a thread update. A chap has kindly offered an L405 FFRR, also in TDV8 flavour. We have e-mailed and been on the phone, and it looks as if we will be changing cars before Christmas. The car is also gaining a set of full winter tyres for the trip and beyond (Alpine symbol, rather than M+S all season). I had snow on the Defender and their cold weather performance is excellent (but they are rather more compromised in warm, dry conditions). As these will be on a spare set of wheels, the owner can revert to his summer tyres next year.
Insurance has been sorted on both sides, reciprocal loan agreement agreed, tyres bought and fitting arranged. So hopefully, we are there now.
He will be taking my car on a jaunt to Spain, which I think will be fun as if he can take in some good roads, this sort of long trip is where the Mercedes excels. He tells me he is a tall chap though, so I hope that the chopped roofline and snug, sports car-esque cockpit is OK! He also has plenty of performance car ownership experience, so I'm not worried about the 63 in his keeping, and in fact hope he uses it as it should be - a fast run to the continent is exactly that mission.
Hopefully attempt two will be the final one...
Thanks so much to the other chaps. I have responded to e-mails: my PH e-mail address is my work one (being changed, but the admins need to do that these days) which I am now rarely checking, hence slow response times.
Part of the reason for doing the swap is having something capable of taking all our ski gear, baby gear, our gear plus infant and car seat. The CLS just is not big enough (long load area but low, and with a small loading aperture). I could buy rails and a roofbox for it of course, but then this thread would not exist, and where is the fun in that? It will also then just end up sitting outside in below zero temps for the whole winter, unused. Not ideal.
Anyway, time for a thread update. A chap has kindly offered an L405 FFRR, also in TDV8 flavour. We have e-mailed and been on the phone, and it looks as if we will be changing cars before Christmas. The car is also gaining a set of full winter tyres for the trip and beyond (Alpine symbol, rather than M+S all season). I had snow on the Defender and their cold weather performance is excellent (but they are rather more compromised in warm, dry conditions). As these will be on a spare set of wheels, the owner can revert to his summer tyres next year.
Insurance has been sorted on both sides, reciprocal loan agreement agreed, tyres bought and fitting arranged. So hopefully, we are there now.
He will be taking my car on a jaunt to Spain, which I think will be fun as if he can take in some good roads, this sort of long trip is where the Mercedes excels. He tells me he is a tall chap though, so I hope that the chopped roofline and snug, sports car-esque cockpit is OK! He also has plenty of performance car ownership experience, so I'm not worried about the 63 in his keeping, and in fact hope he uses it as it should be - a fast run to the continent is exactly that mission.
Hopefully attempt two will be the final one...
Thanks so much to the other chaps. I have responded to e-mails: my PH e-mail address is my work one (being changed, but the admins need to do that these days) which I am now rarely checking, hence slow response times.
Edited by Harry Flashman on Thursday 6th December 16:19
Edited by Harry Flashman on Friday 7th December 00:28
Watchman said:
I have read through this thread since the beginning and I have been so close to offering my GL350 several times. I've only not because I keep baulking at the near £1300 it'd cost for the winter tyres. I want some anyway but bonus month is in the spring.
Anyway...
I will try to change mine for a GL63 when the time comes (couple of years yet). Mentioned my interest to the Merc dealer when we bought my wife's GLC350 and he let me loose in an 80-miles-from-new C63 which was just about as epic as it comes. It actually made my old Cerbera 4.5 seem normal.
Good luck with the venture. It's one of the most fun / full of opportunity threads I've read here.
Thanks for the thought!Anyway...
I will try to change mine for a GL63 when the time comes (couple of years yet). Mentioned my interest to the Merc dealer when we bought my wife's GLC350 and he let me loose in an 80-miles-from-new C63 which was just about as epic as it comes. It actually made my old Cerbera 4.5 seem normal.
Good luck with the venture. It's one of the most fun / full of opportunity threads I've read here.
Also, winters need not cost that much. 20 inch Vredestein Wintracs and Continental WinterContacts etc are around £200 a corner. The excellent Cooper Weather Master is cheaper still, and I have driven a Chevy Suburban on these extensively in the snows of Utah. I just bought a set for the Range Rover for £140 a corner, fitting (including removing old tyres) is £60 at my local tyre place.
I like the Cooper - as well as snow and packed snow/ice, it is great in the wet, slush and light road mud, which pretty much describes a British winter and also takes studs. The latter is unlikely to be necessary in France, but you never know!
I prefer to do the daily ski run in the ski bus, as I'll be doing odd hours due to the baby and will avoid the crowds, there's a stop outside the house, and Nyon lift is a few minutes away. Little point driving to the lift unless you are super early and can easily grab a space, really - first lift won't happen with an infant in the house! Also, the car will need to be at the chalet where the baby is, in case of emergency - the parent in the house will need wheels available if any sort of short-notice trip needs to be made. The couple we are sharing with have a VW Caravelle AWD on snow tyres too, which is the "ski truck" anyway.
I've also booked secure parking in town so that the car won't need to be on the street when we drive in: it makes things easier rather than driving around and trying to squeeze in somewhere. Also, whilst I had no issue with my Defender last time, you tend to be a bit more circumspect when you're driving someone else's car.
All of that said, I think it's pretty low risk out there. The worst thing I saw during my last season was when someone (drunk English person at half term) drove his car (E55 AMG wagon as it happened, on summer tyres) into the bollards outside the tourist office and wrecked it. The gendarmes threw the book at him.
I've also booked secure parking in town so that the car won't need to be on the street when we drive in: it makes things easier rather than driving around and trying to squeeze in somewhere. Also, whilst I had no issue with my Defender last time, you tend to be a bit more circumspect when you're driving someone else's car.
All of that said, I think it's pretty low risk out there. The worst thing I saw during my last season was when someone (drunk English person at half term) drove his car (E55 AMG wagon as it happened, on summer tyres) into the bollards outside the tourist office and wrecked it. The gendarmes threw the book at him.
OscarIndia said:
Harry I can assure said Tall chap that he will be perfectly comfortable in the CLS. It may have escaped you notice, but I'm 6ft 4 and found it very comfortable on the 350 mile delivery run!
The Espace gets a run now and then anyway, when friends rent the chalet we give them use of the car so no problem there.
Ed is looking forward to punishing you on the slopes in Jan!
Of course - good point. Forgot that you are one of my lankier friends!The Espace gets a run now and then anyway, when friends rent the chalet we give them use of the car so no problem there.
Ed is looking forward to punishing you on the slopes in Jan!
I'm taking it easy in Jan, despite your goading. 3 knee operations mean I have to ease back into it all...
On topic, I am wondering about an informal PH car club when I come back and hopefully buy something two-seater and interesting again to supplement the Merc. Will give this some thought whilst away. Sort of like a loan pool for like-minded individuals in local areas who have varied and interesting stuff that they don't mind lending. Biggest challenge is insurance and making sure that everyone is like-minded and treats things properly, and has the funds to do small repairs if necessary. I even have a great local garage and paintshop to deal with such small issues, and even maintenance on older stuff that doesn't need a dealer/specialist.
As the original post states, four of us local South London friends have been doing this for the last few years...and this thread proves that there are plenty of folk who are as willing to lend their property as I am. My Morgans were always out with friends, as I liked them being run, and were used for everything from weekend trips to two friend's weddings. The Aston was used pretty much every weekend by two friends for golf trips and Goodwood runs. I in turn woofled about in a classic Merc 560 SEC (I took that car to Devon and Norfolk and back repeatedly and loved the whole experience, it is about to go in for restoration), a tip run Ford Focus (which I basically borrowed exclusively for two house renovations, and now sadly scrapped) and an F430 for weekends away (lovely thing, sadly likely to be sold soon). Our little car club is declining as folk have had children and moved to more sensible vehicles - but maybe another can rise in its place!
We probably need:
- a premium SUV
- a tip run car
- a performance four seat convertible
- a classic
- a two seat sports car
- an electric car
- a group ZipCar or similar membership for vans etc
Owning and parking cars in London is a pain, but as petrolheads we like to own nice things. Yet most of us here commute by public transport, bicycle or motorcycle /scooter(I do all three). This leaves a lot of metal sitting around unused, when it needs to be run.
Edited by Harry Flashman on Friday 7th December 10:06
Well I live near your old haunts, in Streatham, but the family (Mum’s) home is in Virginia Water and so nearer Reading.
So if you fancy something a bit spicier like the CLS63 or a Morgan Aero 8 / Audi R8 V10 / M4 (all on the club shortlist for next year) for your trips to the UK, you’re on!
So if you fancy something a bit spicier like the CLS63 or a Morgan Aero 8 / Audi R8 V10 / M4 (all on the club shortlist for next year) for your trips to the UK, you’re on!
Edited by Harry Flashman on Friday 7th December 10:55
BrabusMog, It really is a small world!! And when in Surrey, a 1990 Saab 900 Turbo S cab and 1994 Mercedes E320 Sportline convertible are available, should you want a classic droptop for nice weather.
Herbs - good! You should join too. And I hope you got my e-mail: thanks for the original offer of the Q7 and looking back into it at short notice.
Watch this thread in the spring...
Herbs - good! You should join too. And I hope you got my e-mail: thanks for the original offer of the Q7 and looking back into it at short notice.
Watch this thread in the spring...
Edited by Harry Flashman on Friday 7th December 11:07
NorthDave said:
Sounds like we need to meet for a ski Harry. I'll be over for the season. Look out for a prat in a X Drive 3 series!
Definitely! PM me so we can swap details etc.Hoolio - that's not what I was expecting at all. Brand new rack failure - wow. Was it an original spec one? And is there some other issue some where else, like bent arms or something putting a strain on it all?
As for being glad happened here, that makes two of us!!!
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