Advantages of 4WD on ordinary saloons?
Discussion
having lived in Germany, I can say on winter tyres (legal requirement over there) that the 760 I drove never had an issue with traction, and flowed with all traffic on/off motorway slip roads etc even in the snow. You could pretty much drive the car as normal.
If you don't have winter tyres, RWD cars usually have traction issues because of weight balance- all the engine weight up front, with less over the (rear) driven wheels. FWD cars therefore cope better in snow when on summer tyres.
However there are exceptions- mid or rear engined, RWD cars. i.e a 2WD Porsche carerra drives very well in the snow, as does a Boxster, all on summer tyres.
Taking this one step further, I've driven my Lotus Exige S (supercharged, with higher than standard HP), on Yoko A048 semi-slicks on snow, and it coped quite easily going up snow covered streets etc:
although not obvious in the picture, this was at the top of an uphill road:
If you don't have winter tyres, RWD cars usually have traction issues because of weight balance- all the engine weight up front, with less over the (rear) driven wheels. FWD cars therefore cope better in snow when on summer tyres.
However there are exceptions- mid or rear engined, RWD cars. i.e a 2WD Porsche carerra drives very well in the snow, as does a Boxster, all on summer tyres.
Taking this one step further, I've driven my Lotus Exige S (supercharged, with higher than standard HP), on Yoko A048 semi-slicks on snow, and it coped quite easily going up snow covered streets etc:
although not obvious in the picture, this was at the top of an uphill road:
J4CKO said:
The more power you have in a RWD car, the less of if you can use in the wet, and with most BMW's, they are, on normal tyres, helpless if there is any snow.
I went from a TT with 4WD to an M135i, the TT could do full bore starts on snow, you could come off a roundabout in the wet and just aim and plant your foor, where the BMW goes a bit like Bambi on a frozen pond in comparison.
For a car you use all year round and do significant miles in, 4wd is the way to go, especially if you live anywhere snowier than average, hilly or a bit rural.
Failing that, get the right (Winter) tyres on any car and you are a lot better off, ultimate is winter tyres on something with 4WD, unstoppable, until of course you come across stranded BMW's across the road.
+1I went from a TT with 4WD to an M135i, the TT could do full bore starts on snow, you could come off a roundabout in the wet and just aim and plant your foor, where the BMW goes a bit like Bambi on a frozen pond in comparison.
For a car you use all year round and do significant miles in, 4wd is the way to go, especially if you live anywhere snowier than average, hilly or a bit rural.
Failing that, get the right (Winter) tyres on any car and you are a lot better off, ultimate is winter tyres on something with 4WD, unstoppable, until of course you come across stranded BMW's across the road.
ked.In the dry the only real benefit I've found is to be able to nail it into gaps out of junctions, with no flashing light. Stick a set of winters on an AWD and I'm confident it would out perform it's FWD equivalent in slippery conditions. Balance that against higher fuel consumption and tyre wear.
Anyone who thinks people AWD JUST for a few days of snow every year, is clearly missing the point. If you wanted that you’d buy a land rover.
Awd gives more grip in all conditions and is therefore more consistent than 2wd cars.
With AWD you never have to worry about things like torque steer, or rely on traction control to get away quickly from a standing start. The car just pulls away with no drama as one axel isn’t dragging or pushing the other half of the car.
Awd gives more grip in all conditions and is therefore more consistent than 2wd cars.
With AWD you never have to worry about things like torque steer, or rely on traction control to get away quickly from a standing start. The car just pulls away with no drama as one axel isn’t dragging or pushing the other half of the car.
otolith said:
Kuji said:
Awd gives more grip in all conditions and is therefore more consistent than 2wd cars.
No, it has no more grip, it’s just able to use more of it to drive the car forwards.
That’s amazing. And wrong.
fido said:
Even a lowly 320D has 280lbft of torque - about the same as a Subaru WRX - and you wouldn't question the AWD on that. Fat rear tyres on on modern saloons make 4WD even more relevant in winter conditions.
I don't question the AWD in the Subaru because the Subaru is a performance car. Designed to go fast. No doubt there are conditions where an X drive 320 would be faster than a RWD one. Not just snow either. greasy day and lots of slow corners, for example. However, the 320d isn't primarily about going fast in the way that a WRX is. Also the TT compared to M135i - that is an interesting insight. One of the reasons I like 2WD is the fun of giving just not too much power (or "accidentally" giving slightly too much).
Anyway - I think we've got the answer. Rightly or wrongly they perceive that they are safer / easier to drive or more likley to get them home in snow.
Thanks for all the answers. I was intrigued is all.
A 2wd car on winter tyres will do better in the snow that a 4wd car on summer tyres there's a video on youtube where they drive some cars with various tyres up an indoor ski slope
FF to 2:30 for the FWD car on summer tyres V the 4wd car on winter tyres
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA
IMO 4WD on a standard saloon is a sales gimmick, winter tyres will sort 90% of the traction problems for most areas of the UK
Kuji said:
Go on then.
Convince me that a 300bhp AWD car has the same torque steer as a 300bhp FWD car.
Feel free to quote any marketing material you see fit.
thats not what you said Convince me that a 300bhp AWD car has the same torque steer as a 300bhp FWD car.
Feel free to quote any marketing material you see fit.
Kuji said:
With AWD you never have to worry about things like torque steer,
Maybe have a read up about it to better educate yourself in these matters, as well as grip and traction.Kuji said:
otolith said:
Kuji said:
Awd gives more grip in all conditions and is therefore more consistent than 2wd cars.
No, it has no more grip, it’s just able to use more of it to drive the car forwards.
That’s amazing. And wrong.
Grip and traction are not the same thing.
wack said:
IMO 4WD on a standard saloon is a sales gimmick, winter tyres will sort 90% of the traction problems for most areas of the UK
I can't be arsed with buying and storing a set of winter wheels/tyres. And summer tyres on AWD definitely trump the same on 2wd in the wet/winter, and for pulling away fast in the dry. Don't underestimate the traction advantage on wet roads.
A couple of years ago, I was at the front of a queue at some traffic lights on a NSL DC road. My wife was at the head of the queue in the lane next to me. It wasn't raining, but the road was damp from some earlier rain.
I was driving a Leon Cupra 290, and she was driving her Yeti TDI 150 4x4.
For a laugh, we decided to drag start when the lights turned green, and I was surprised to say the least. She got a MUCH quicker start than I was able to do, and it was only once we were past 60mph that I was able to catch and pass her. In the dry, she wouldn't have seen which way I went.
I've had similar situations where a friend was not able to stay with me (in my lowly A4 2.0TDI quattro) in his M140i accelerating off a wet roundabout until the speeds got silly.
A couple of years ago, I was at the front of a queue at some traffic lights on a NSL DC road. My wife was at the head of the queue in the lane next to me. It wasn't raining, but the road was damp from some earlier rain.
I was driving a Leon Cupra 290, and she was driving her Yeti TDI 150 4x4.
For a laugh, we decided to drag start when the lights turned green, and I was surprised to say the least. She got a MUCH quicker start than I was able to do, and it was only once we were past 60mph that I was able to catch and pass her. In the dry, she wouldn't have seen which way I went.
I've had similar situations where a friend was not able to stay with me (in my lowly A4 2.0TDI quattro) in his M140i accelerating off a wet roundabout until the speeds got silly.
blade7 said:
In the dry the only real benefit I've found is to be able to nail it into gaps out of junctions, with no flashing light. Stick a set of winters on an AWD and I'm confident it would out perform it's FWD equivalent in slippery conditions. Balance that against higher fuel consumption and tyre wear.
+1 and it is a real, achievable benefit.wack said:
A 2wd car on winter tyres will do better in the snow that a 4wd car on summer tyres there's a video on youtube where they drive some cars with various tyres up an indoor ski slope
FF to 2:30 for the FWD car on summer tyres V the 4wd car on winter tyres
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA
IMO 4WD on a standard saloon is a sales gimmick, winter tyres will sort 90% of the traction problems for most areas of the UK
Yes, yes, we have seen that and similar videos many times. We are talking about 2WD v AWD in similar conditions, with similar tyres.FF to 2:30 for the FWD car on summer tyres V the 4wd car on winter tyres
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA
IMO 4WD on a standard saloon is a sales gimmick, winter tyres will sort 90% of the traction problems for most areas of the UK
Kuji said:
Really on your AWD car two of the tyres have zero grip when pulling away.
That’s amazing. And wrong.
"grip" is the co-efficient of friction between the tire and the surface. AWD does. not alter this; what it can do is distribute torque more evenly across more (i.e all 4) tyres, so that the torque does not overcome the co-efficient of friction. However, on an icy road, where the co-efficient of friction is reduced with summer tyres, once again this will make no difference. On low co-efficient of friction surfaces, such as ice and snow, having a winter tire (that increases co-efficient of friction) will make more difference than AWD.That’s amazing. And wrong.
Of course winter tyres+ locking diff (even if 2WD) will make even more of difference, and would leave an AWD on summer tyres for dead...
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