Advantages of 4WD on ordinary saloons?

[DoubleD]

ericmcn said:

DoubleD said:

So grip comes from tyres then?

christ on a bike, have a look at the videos above and my one from last march - breaking and steering involved in snow and ice

I havent watched any of your videos, but are you saying that the grip doesnt come from the tyres?

[HM-2]

ericmcn said:

HM-2 said:

Not if this hypothetical competition involved stopping or steering, it wouldn't.

unless I am going blind these guys looks to be steering and braking in the snow on summer tyres on a Subaru

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPAmpfi-f6c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlQ3zTt-NBo

Not blind, just lacking basic reading comprehension.

I didn't say an AWD car on summer tyres wouldn't be able to steer or stop, I said it wouldn't be able to steer or stop as well as a 2WD car on winters.

Which it wouldn't. Because contrary to your opinion, Subaru AWD, as impressive as it is, is incapable of altering the laws of physics

Edited by HM-2 on Saturday 13th October 21:44

[jagnet]

DoubleD said:

Its not the wing mirrors thats for sure.

Only when it goes really really wrong

ericmcn said:

hit me up when we next get snow

That's fine by me. Challenge accepted

[Finlandia]

ericmcn said:

DoubleD said:

So grip comes from tyres then?

christ on a bike, have a look at the videos above and my one from last march - breaking and steering involved in snow and ice

Why isn't the Subaru gripping here?

Earlier Finlandia said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q_pQ7Q5uBs

I'll tell you why, on blank polished ice you need studded winter tyres, nothing else helps, no matter how many wheels are driven or how anti-lockable your brakes are.


Before anyone pipes in, chains work too, they are a faff to get on and off though

Edited by Finlandia on Saturday 13th October 21:58

[HM-2]

Meanwhile, in RWD land:

https://youtu.be/z-Kzmp7HIys

Funny what the right tyres will do for you.

[Kuji]

HM-2 said:

ericmcn said:

HM-2 said:

Not if this hypothetical competition involved stopping or steering, it wouldn't.

unless I am going blind these guys looks to be steering and braking in the snow on summer tyres on a Subaru

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPAmpfi-f6c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlQ3zTt-NBo

Not blind, just lacking basic reading comprehension.

I didn't say an AWD car on summer tyres wouldn't be able to steer or stop, I said it wouldn't be able to steer or stop as well as a 2WD car on winters.

Which it wouldn't. Because contrary to your opinion, Subaru AWD, as impressive as it is, is incapable of altering the laws of physics

Edited by HM-2 on Saturday 13th October 21:44

How is that same BMW 750 on summer tyres when compared to an AWD Fiat UNO on full winters?

It’s so obviously a direct comparison.

Edited by Kuji on Saturday 13th October 22:49

[Flibble]

Eric has clearly never used winter tyres. If he had he wouldn't be talking such garbage.

[deltashad]

Once in 20 years of 4wd saloon car ownership it benifitted me. The street was snowed in.
Neighbours trying to drive out were turning the place into an ice rink.
One neighbour in his jeep Cherokee was really doing damage.
That point I decided to remove the integrale.
That's the only time I've ever seen the benefit in normal situations.
There have been other occasions in our 4wds
but not really for getting to work circumstances.
2wd will do 99.9 percent of the time in the uk

[RobM77]

Flibble said:

Eric has clearly never used winter tyres. If he had he wouldn't be talking such garbage.

I owned a 4WD Celica Carlos Sainz many years ago and drove it on snow on many occasions and can confirm it was pretty slippy slidey! For sure, it accelerated all right - nothing would stop it doing that, but cornering and braking were both ridiculous in the snow - it just slid around all over the place. My RWD BMW on winter tyres though almost drives like the snow's not there. Not quite, obviously, but you can certainly go, stop and corner without an issue, provided you drive calmly and sensibly.

[ericmcn]

TooMany2cvs said:

The video that showed your Subaru pootling around following a whole raft of cooking FWD hatches, none of which were having any problems?

look again without rose tinted bmw glasses? the incline at the start opposite the factory, where I over took all the cars stuck - and the hyundai i think after than doing 10mph, and then onto mountbatten way where several cars were struggling, my only problem that day were other road users.

[blade7]

[ericmcn]

DoubleD said:

I havent watched any of your videos, but are you saying that the grip doesnt come from the tyres?

it comes from extra strong ground coffee from central america.

[ericmcn]

HM-2 said:

Not blind, just lacking basic reading comprehension.

I didn't say an AWD car on summer tyres wouldn't be able to steer or stop, I said it wouldn't be able to steer or stop as well as a 2WD car on winters.

Which it wouldn't. Because contrary to your opinion, Subaru AWD, as impressive as it is, is incapable of altering the laws of physics

Edited by HM-2 on Saturday 13th October 21:44

you said they cant do steering and braking in winter conditions on summer tyres. I posted up several videos showing they can, pretty easily as well, and in my video back in march where if you look closely i steered and braked quite a few times to avoid rubbish cars obstructing my path, and the video was not even over at thar stage later on at least 2 BMWs were trying to go up a hill and ended up going back down, no doubt due to the drivers not understanding basic driving dynamics a 6 year old go kart wizz should know, right?

[DoubleD]

ericmcn said:

DoubleD said:

I havent watched any of your videos, but are you saying that the grip doesnt come from the tyres?

it comes from extra strong ground coffee from central america.

Im guessing that this is you agreeing that a car grips the road using its tyres.

[ericmcn]

Flibble said:

Eric has clearly never used winter tyres. If he had he wouldn't be talking such garbage.

i dont need winter tyres? BMWs for sure need them. Why am I talking garbage? I think the garbage is from others? sure winter tyres are very nice but I demonstrated in several videos various Subaru AWDs getting by just fine on Summer tyres - ample breaking and steering accomplished, with some good quality all season tyres you can manage ok, its the other pesky road users that are mostly the problem

[ericmcn]

DoubleD said:

Im guessing that this is you agreeing that a car grips the road using its tyres.

i recommend you watch a few videos, ideally over some strong coffee - they show some examples of how its possible to navigate winter conditions with summer tyres (and obviously the grip they bring) in an AWD Subaru

in other words an equal ish performance than what an unstoppable BMW or other FWD/RWD car that can conquer the worlds worst terrain can do with winter tyres added.

now read it again and drink more coffee.

[Wills2]

ericmcn said:

i recommend you watch a few videos, ideally over some strong coffee - they show some examples of how its possible to navigate winter conditions with summer tyres (and obviously the grip they bring) in an AWD Subaru

in other words an equal ish performance than what an unstoppable BMW or other FWD/RWD car that can conquer the worlds worst terrain can do with winter tyres added.

now read it again and drink more coffee.

Are you some sort of comedy parody?

[InitialDave]

So have you used winter tyres or not? Because the stuff you're spouting really does make it seem like the confidence that comes from not knowing any better.

[Mr Tidy]

ericmcn said:

i recommend you watch a few videos, ideally over some strong coffee - they show some examples of how its possible to navigate winter conditions with summer tyres (and obviously the grip they bring) in an AWD Subaru

in other words an equal ish performance than what an unstoppable BMW or other FWD/RWD car that can conquer the worlds worst terrain can do with winter tyres added.

now read it again and drink more coffee.

Which videos do you recommend?

Are there specific ones that demonstrate how a Subaru on summer tyres can generate more cornering grip than any other car on winter tyres in the winter? And how can a Subaru on summers ever hope to stop as quickly as any other car on winters - they all have 4 wheel brakes after all - or did I miss something?

AWD may get you moving, but it is no use getting you cornering or stopping - that is when you need grip (which you get from having the right tyres) rather than power-sapping 4WD b*llocks.

[tonyb1968]

Mr Tidy said:

ericmcn said:

i recommend you watch a few videos, ideally over some strong coffee - they show some examples of how its possible to navigate winter conditions with summer tyres (and obviously the grip they bring) in an AWD Subaru

in other words an equal ish performance than what an unstoppable BMW or other FWD/RWD car that can conquer the worlds worst terrain can do with winter tyres added.

now read it again and drink more coffee.

Which videos do you recommend?

Are there specific ones that demonstrate how a Subaru on summer tyres can generate more cornering grip than any other car on winter tyres in the winter? And how can a Subaru on summers ever hope to stop as quickly as any other car on winters - they all have 4 wheel brakes after all - or did I miss something?

AWD may get you moving, but it is no use getting you cornering or stopping - that is when you need grip (which you get from having the right tyres) rather than power-sapping 4WD b*llocks.

It can't, its all marketing BS, a tyre only has so much traction, it does not matter if its awd, fwd or rwd, that tyre will have the same traction no matter what. The major difference is the power delivered to the wheels, 300bhp across 4 wheels is 75bhp, across 2 wheels its 150bhp (not taking into account transmission losses), for the purpose of starting off this benefits the awd car more.
In the case of stopping or cornering it does nothing, zero, nada, under braking the tyres will all have the same traction level, it wont stop quicker, it won't turn better, and that is where people think awd and summer tyres win hands down, they don't (having owned numerous awd cars, a fwd does exactly the same if you get it moving).

Winter tyres are designed to provide better traction and handling in colder conditions, be it ice, snow, lower temps etc, this is why ive had winter tyres on my awd cars and fwd cars, they make a huge difference in those conditions, far better than any awd with summer tyres on, its night and day.