Advantages of 4WD on ordinary saloons?
Discussion
Kuji said:
Anyone who thinks people AWD JUST for a few days of snow every year, is clearly missing the point. If you wanted that you’d buy a land rover.
Awd gives more grip in all conditions and is therefore more consistent than 2wd cars.
With AWD you never have to worry about things like torque steer, or rely on traction control to get away quickly from a standing start. The car just pulls away with no drama as one axel isn’t dragging or pushing the other half of the car.
My perhaps ignorant understanding is that 4wd can produce more traction, but not more grip...?Awd gives more grip in all conditions and is therefore more consistent than 2wd cars.
With AWD you never have to worry about things like torque steer, or rely on traction control to get away quickly from a standing start. The car just pulls away with no drama as one axel isn’t dragging or pushing the other half of the car.
ericmcn said:
in other words an equal ish performance than what an unstoppable BMW or other FWD/RWD car that can conquer the worlds worst terrain can do with winter tyres added.
Equalish performance? Not . even . close.Compare and contrast:
Your video: https://youtu.be/X8RQ_p4veis where you finally manage to achieve a heady 25mph on a briefly empty bit of dual carriageway in 10mm of light snow and slush.
Not your video: https://youtu.be/_DnB_TmhsPY where relatively normal road speeds are maintained.
ericmcn said:
TooMany2cvs said:
The video that showed your Subaru pootling around following a whole raft of cooking FWD hatches, none of which were having any problems?
look again without rose tinted bmw glasses?You really are hilarious.
TooMany2cvs said:
ericmcn said:
TooMany2cvs said:
The video that showed your Subaru pootling around following a whole raft of cooking FWD hatches, none of which were having any problems?
look again without rose tinted bmw glasses?You really are hilarious.
Also stopping seems to be ignored. I'd rather have a set of winters to stop on in the snow than a set of summers whatever the car - FWD, RWD, AWD or borked AWD.
ericmcn said:
i dont need winter tyres? BMWs for sure need them. Why am I talking garbage? I think the garbage is from others? sure winter tyres are very nice but I demonstrated in several videos various Subaru AWDs getting by just fine on Summer tyres - ample breaking and steering accomplished, with some good quality all season tyres you can manage ok, its the other pesky road users that are mostly the problem
For the three days this year of ‘snow’ no, I don’t need them. But I’ve had them before and obviously always in Europe, funny that even Subaru’s wear them out there. It’s quite amusing that you’d say winter tyres are ‘nice’ when they are thing that determines your grip level. I think you’d say anything to justify why you own what you do. Are you that shallow? 
markbmw said:
My perhaps ignorant understanding is that 4wd can produce more traction, but not more grip...?
Precisely. 4wd can't invent friction when it's not there in the first place. It can optimise small amounts but "twice very little" is always going to be very small compared to even "half of quite a lot" of friction as supplied by the right compound at the contact patch.
ericmcn said:
you said they cant do steering and braking in winter conditions on summer tyres.
No, I didn't. Your comment was:ericmcn said:
A Subaru with AWD 50:50 torque split or an Audi Quattro with permanent AWD would be hard to be beaten by any FWD/RWD car with winter tyres imo, assuming like for like vehicle comparisons
To which my response was:HM-2 said:
Not if this hypothetical competition involved stopping or steering, it wouldn't.
The point- that a FWD/RWD car on winters will stop and steer better than an AWD car on summers in the snow- is pretty obvious to anyone who isn't an ignoramus. Why don't you come back to the thread when you've learned to f
king read?Edited by HM-2 on Sunday 14th October 15:00
jagnet said:
Not your video: https://youtu.be/_DnB_TmhsPY where relatively normal road speeds are maintained.
Saab's driving too fast for the conditions. Sometimes winter tyres can give too much confidence. I have first hand experience (more than once) of this!InitialDave said:
Is there anyone who's driven a Subaru, and Audi with "proper" Quattro, and FWD/RWD cars on winter tyres, and wants to agree with Eric?
Because I have, and I don't.
Ahhh... a perfect point for me to interject! After 8 RWD BMWs that all benefitted from winter tyres I hopped into a all-season shod Quattro in January and was gobsmacked by the extra security and grip. Eric’s experience is very different to mine! Because I have, and I don't.
popeyewhite said:
jagnet said:
Not your video: https://youtu.be/_DnB_TmhsPY where relatively normal road speeds are maintained.
Saab's driving too fast for the conditions. Sometimes winter tyres can give too much confidence. I have first hand experience (more than once) of this!We always have winter tyres on our cars though (by law), proper Nordic winter tyres with an even softer compound and usually a more aggressive tread and more sipes, they are often studded for extra grip on ice as well.
Finlandia said:
Depends on how used the driver is to driving in such conditions
Granted but as it's the UK so not much. and the other drivers won't be sharing his over-confidence. Have you watched the entire clip? Some of the overtakes are...bold. TBH he'd be classed as pushing it without any snow/ice.Finlandia said:
in Finland and Sweden we usually drive at speeds up to 80-100kph on snow covered roads, slower in heavy snowfall and unmade roads but on a road like in the video 80kph isn't a problem, slowing at junctions and roundabouts obviously.
We always have winter tyres on our cars though (by law), proper Nordic winter tyres with an even softer compound and usually a more aggressive tread and more sipes, they are often studded for extra grip on ice as well.
Sure, and that's entirely fair enough. I bet you have fewer cars as well.We always have winter tyres on our cars though (by law), proper Nordic winter tyres with an even softer compound and usually a more aggressive tread and more sipes, they are often studded for extra grip on ice as well.
popeyewhite said:
Granted but as it's the UK so not much. and the other drivers won't be sharing his over-confidence. Have you watched the entire clip? Some of the overtakes are...bold. TBH he'd be classed as pushing it without any snow/ice.
Sure, and that's entirely fair enough. I bet you have fewer cars as well.
Maybe the driver is a Finnish rally driver holidaying in the UK? Sure, and that's entirely fair enough. I bet you have fewer cars as well.
Not watched every second of it, watched a bit here and there, probably missed the bold moves. Overtaking the less confident drivers is not posing any bigger issues here, but again, everyone is on winter tyres so have much bigger margins on their side.
Not as many cars on our roads, even if the bigger cities are busy, we have more snow and ice on our roads to compensate for that though.
Mr Tidy said:
Which videos do you recommend?
Are there specific ones that demonstrate how a Subaru on summer tyres can generate more cornering grip than any other car on winter tyres in the winter? And how can a Subaru on summers ever hope to stop as quickly as any other car on winters - they all have 4 wheel brakes after all - or did I miss something?
AWD may get you moving, but it is no use getting you cornering or stopping - that is when you need grip (which you get from having the right tyres) rather than power-sapping 4WD b*llocks.
specsavers anyone? my vid from March - now unless you are severely disabled on the vision front you can see some strides taken in terms of steering, breaking and navigating inclines - no? Falken summer tyres btw - also posted up 2 other videos with featured similar AWD cars with summer tyres.Are there specific ones that demonstrate how a Subaru on summer tyres can generate more cornering grip than any other car on winter tyres in the winter? And how can a Subaru on summers ever hope to stop as quickly as any other car on winters - they all have 4 wheel brakes after all - or did I miss something?
AWD may get you moving, but it is no use getting you cornering or stopping - that is when you need grip (which you get from having the right tyres) rather than power-sapping 4WD b*llocks.
The stopping and cornering would not be a fraction of what would be possible with winter tyres, thats pretty obvious but with summer or all weather tyres its not like you cant get out of first gear
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