Advantages of 4WD on ordinary saloons?
Discussion
ericmcn said:
the white goods boring trash we see every day on lease deals, exciting (not)
Do you reckon the way people choose to pay for the depreciation has an effect on the car dynamics ?For me, the only current (half) exciting Subaru that I can think of is the BRZ (I quite enjoyed its Toyota cousin but only on track). I wonder if it's 4wd ?
ericmcn said:
Finlandia said:
So are you saying that an AWD on summer tyres is better than a 2WD on winter tyres on snow and ice?
Im saying I dont need particuarly need winters for a few mm of snow, as for a 2WD on winter rubber performing just as good as a 4WD in snow also with winter rubber thats b
ks also, any decent Subaru with AWD and LSD or an Audi Quattro with similar spec would outperform a FWD/RWD - more traction on more wheels and more grip. Not rocket science, oh wait I failed go karting drifting for 7 year olds module 5.
nickfrog said:
GravelBen said:
How about this one?
I am sure it's very good but not for me, particularly as it's 4wd. Each to their own though Ben.nickfrog said:
GravelBen said:
How about this one?
I am sure it's very good but not for me, particularly as it's 4wd. Each to their own though Ben.
RobM77 said:
nickfrog said:
GravelBen said:
How about this one?
I am sure it's very good but not for me, particularly as it's 4wd. Each to their own though Ben.Finlandia said:
ericmcn said:
Finlandia said:
So are you saying that an AWD on summer tyres is better than a 2WD on winter tyres on snow and ice?
Im saying I dont need particuarly need winters for a few mm of snow, as for a 2WD on winter rubber performing just as good as a 4WD in snow also with winter rubber thats bks also, any decent Subaru with AWD and LSD or an Audi Quattro with similar spec would outperform a FWD/RWD - more traction on more wheels and more grip. Not rocket science, oh wait I failed go karting drifting for 7 year olds module 5.ericmcn said:
as for a 2WD on winter rubber performing just as good as a 4WD in snow also with winter rubber thats bks also.
Are you going to keep on repeating things that people haven't said as if they have? ks also.ericmcn said:
more grip
Er, no. So it clearly is rocket science to you. Explains a lot, really.
nickfrog said:
Where do grip and traction come from Eric ?
And what happened there https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STaximkaQxo?
Wrong type of ice ? Wrong type of LSD ? I thought 4wd brought stability too ? And that's where 4wd is supposed to excel at (pure traction).
Or could it be on the wrong tyre ?
that video looks like a total mismatch in terms of performance - that Subaru looks like a wheezy Daihatsu Charade with asthma, or maybe usless tyres but either way not a very good match - pair it with an Audi RS4, Impreza WRX, Legacy SpecB variants and see how they go.And what happened there https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STaximkaQxo?
Wrong type of ice ? Wrong type of LSD ? I thought 4wd brought stability too ? And that's where 4wd is supposed to excel at (pure traction).
Or could it be on the wrong tyre ?
Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 18th October 08:10
RowntreesCabana said:
Excuse my ignorance here as its probably been covered many times in this monster thread, but with an AWD each wheel is being driven and therefore fighting for traction, with a 2wd car 2 wheels are either being dragged or pushed, so on that basis isn't an AWD providing better traction in conditions such as snow/rain/mud?
Exactly what is the point of AWD, if, according to most people on this thread, its only the tyres that make a difference?
most of the bashing is probably done by people who dont own an AWD...Exactly what is the point of AWD, if, according to most people on this thread, its only the tyres that make a difference?
Edited by RowntreesCabana on Thursday 18th October 07:54
REAR-WHEEL DRIVE:
Advantages
Many regard rear-wheel drive as the purist’s solution and the only layout for optimum driving enjoyment. The theory goes that by driving the rear wheels, the front wheels are allowed to get on with steering, and a majority of the braking, for complete and balanced driving manners.
Generally speaking, driving the rear wheels also promotes a more inherent tendency for oversteer on the limit, which is considered more fun and manageable in the right hands than the understeer often associated with front-drivers.
The engine in a rear-wheel drive is typically oriented longitudinally (if located at the front), which allows the installation of a larger engine provided the engine bay is long enough to accommodate it.
Disadvantages
The natural tendency to oversteer can be unsafe for inexperienced drivers (although it is up to the driver to maintain control of any vehicle given the circumstances), but modern electronic stability systems are very effective at keeping cars on the straight and narrow.
Sending power from a front-mounted engine to the rear wheels requires a propshaft and rear differential, which take up space and add more weight. Most rear-drives have a ‘transmission tunnel’ which robs some cabin room along the middle of the car.
FRONT-WHEEL DRIVE:
Advantages
By confining the bulky engine, gearbox, driveshafts and steering to the front end of the car, the rest of the vehicle’s space is freed up for occupants and luggage.
The overall vehicle package can also be made smaller and virtually all vehicles in the compact segment use a front-engine, front-wheel drive layout.
Disadvantages
For high-performance applications, getting power down to the road through the front wheels causes more problems than a rear-driven car, and wheelspin is more likely, particularly on slippery surfaces such as mud and ice.
Another typical front-drive trait in more powerful vehicles is an effect called ‘torque steer’ which is when the car pulls to one side with heavy throttle application. Many manufacturers have attempted to counter the effect with a number of solutions, and with varying levels of success.
Front-drive cars use a device called a ‘constant velocity’ joint or CV joint which allows the drive shaft to turn with the steering wheels but the limited dexterity of the CV joint also has a limitation on maximum steering angle and turning circle.
With the entire drivetrain over the front axle, front-wheel drives have a natural tendency towards understeer, which is exacerbated with the application of too much power, just as excessive power encourages oversteer in rear-drives. It is also harder for engineers to distribute the vehicle weight equally over the axles, which effects handling.
ALL-WHEEL DRIVE:
Advantages
In a word – traction. With all four wheels sending torque to the surface, all-paw cars offer a safety and performance advantage compared with two-wheel drive cars, particularly in adverse weather conditions and on loose surfaces.
Acceleration from a standing start is generally faster in high-powered vehicles with the maximum power of the engine shared between a larger tyre contact patch.
The traction advantage also makes four-wheel drive cars more suitable for towing larger loads or on slippery surfaces where the extra ground-clearance of an SUV is not necessary.
Disadvantages
With an extra axle to drive, the additional differential and pair of half-shafts makes a four-wheel drive system heavier than two-wheel drive systems and this will have an effect on fuel consumption and possibly handling.
There are systems that disconnect one pair of wheels when they are not required which reduces rotational losses but they cannot reduce the consumption caused by carrying around extra weight.
The extra differential and drive shafts can also increase the amount of service items that require attention when in for maintenance work.
Myth:
All-wheel drive systems do not increase the ‘grip’ of a tyre. Four-wheel drives have a traction advantage over two wheel drives because all four tyres can contribute but, ultimately, the grip of a vehicle is dictated by the performance of the rubber on the road.
This particularly applies to during cornering where the speed of the car is governed, not by the driven wheels, but more by the weight-distribution of the car, centre of gravity, tyre performance and suspension system.
There are exceptions to all of the examples given, and the above is intended only as a general guide to help you start thinking about which layout best fits your requirements, but as always, the best approach is to get out there and start test driving.
RowntreesCabana said:
Excuse my ignorance here as its probably been covered many times in this monster thread, but with an AWD each wheel is being driven and therefore fighting for traction, with a 2wd car 2 wheels are either being dragged or pushed, so on that basis isn't an AWD providing better traction in conditions such as snow/rain/mud?
Exactly what is the point of AWD, if, according to most people on this thread, its only the tyres that make a difference?
a TLDR version of this thread (from above) - like i summed up previously on here, safety and performanceExactly what is the point of AWD, if, according to most people on this thread, its only the tyres that make a difference?
Edited by RowntreesCabana on Thursday 18th October 07:54
AWD - Advantages
In a word – traction. With all four wheels sending torque to the surface, all-paw cars offer a safety and performance advantage compared with two-wheel drive cars, particularly in adverse weather conditions and on loose surfaces.
Acceleration from a standing start is generally faster in high-powered vehicles with the maximum power of the engine shared between a larger tyre contact patch.
The traction advantage also makes four-wheel drive cars more suitable for towing larger loads or on slippery surfaces where the extra ground-clearance of an SUV is not necessary.
/thread and re open when we next get snow....
Mr Tidy said:
I'm hoping for a snow-free winter, but failing that I'm hoping I don't live anywhere near ericmcn! 
you better not drive anywhere near Southampon so if we have any weather like last March...the amount of ill equipped cars, niceEdited by Mr Tidy on Thursday 18th October 00:29
My first AWD was an S4 I am not the best driver in the world but to lose it you would have to either be pissed or asleep it did not lose traction it would understeer a bit but all controllable for an average driver like me, have an SQ5 and R8 V10 now and the grip on both is outstanding I was very very wary of my C32, would always go for either AWD or buy a TVR with no electronics to help me
nickfrog said:
Do you reckon the way people choose to pay for the depreciation has an effect on the car dynamics ?
For me, the only current (half) exciting Subaru that I can think of is the BRZ (I quite enjoyed its Toyota cousin but only on track). I wonder if it's 4wd ?
many cars have no soul now, gutless and no driver engagement whatsoever, the legacy is a joy to drive - otherwise i would not have it over 2 years. a bloke on UK Legacy had this to say about the much 'loved' BMW 530d, its probaby similar case for many other marques nowadays.For me, the only current (half) exciting Subaru that I can think of is the BRZ (I quite enjoyed its Toyota cousin but only on track). I wonder if it's 4wd ?
BRZ no AWD and not fast enough, same as the GT86 - I like the BRZ though as its quite rare. ////
"I can give you some insight on 530Ds - I went from an Impreza WRX wagon to a 2012 530D in 2016 as the kids were getting too big for the Impreza. I expected at least a bit of the M5 halo effect to be present in the 530D but it was seriously disappointing. Maybe the earlier generation are better but the F11 doesn't do fun.
It's a fantastic place to be, the space, the leather, the build quality, etc, the fuel consumption is good (I got about 36mpg), the separately opening tailgate glass should be compulsory on all wagons - but the driving experience is non-existent. It's just a big, boring bus, with everything designed to isolate you from the experience of driving rather allow you to revel in it. As I've mentioned on here before, it's the ideal car for a German taxi driver who has to spend 10 hours a day in the vehicle and do 100mph runs down the autobahn to the airport.
Maybe the X Drive version is better, but I doubt it - the car is too big and too heavy and too dull. Maintenance costs are ridiculous even if you go to an indy, god forbid if anything goes wrong (6 grand for a new gearbox...). And it turns you into a BMW driver (by which I mean the typical, tailgating dwad). Seriously.
Lived with it for a bit over a year until one day I realised I didn't have any interest in driving it and had no connection with it whatsoever. Sold it and bought a Twinscroll wagon and am much happier despite spending more time visiting petrol stations!?!"
colinrob said:
My first AWD was an S4 I am not the best driver in the world but to lose it you would have to either be pissed or asleep it did not lose traction it would understeer a bit but all controllable for an average driver like me, have an SQ5 and R8 V10 now and the grip on both is outstanding I was very very wary of my C32, would always go for either AWD or buy a TVR with no electronics to help me
I always said about my S4 that I never felt the addition of Quattro as the bloody thing would understeer off the road before AWD was ever needed. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff