Advantages of 4WD on ordinary saloons?

[CarbonXKR]

I'm about to get a 4WD towards the end of December and from what I've seen and read on the new car, the "intelligent AWD" will suit roads here in Scotland over the winter months.
I have winters waiting to go on that worked extremely well on my XF last winter - night vs day - in the colder weather.
Some of the doubters here that say they don't need them and get on just fine are probably right i.e. they have "managed" over the previous winters in their driving career/location etc. However in the colder areas of the UK, winters really do outperform and are a price I'm happy to pay for our families safety. It's all about personal preference and I'm not going to criticise anyone's choice of tyre, but you would need to be very ill educated to think they don't give you an advantage and I'm afraid some on here appear to fit that description.

[ericmcn]

tonyb1968 said:

Incorrect but hey, you still need to figure out where the AWD benefits and where it doesn't, hence the question above is actually a false statement.

incorrect? well based on the beast from the east weather the Legacy was strolling around in summer tyres whilst mostly everyone else (assuing in summers also) were having a hard time in the fwd/rwd. I saw 2 BMWs try unsuccessfully to navigate a steep-ish incline and they ended up going back the other way, probably the tip of the iceberg and there were many more stories like that across the SE.

[mcpoot]

CarbonXKR said:

I'm about to get a 4WD towards the end of December and from what I've seen and read on the new car, the "intelligent AWD" will suit roads here in Scotland over the winter months.
I have winters waiting to go on that worked extremely well on my XF last winter - night vs day - in the colder weather.
Some of the doubters here that say they don't need them and get on just fine are probably right i.e. they have "managed" over the previous winters in their driving career/location etc. However in the colder areas of the UK, winters really do outperform and are a price I'm happy to pay for our families safety. It's all about personal preference and I'm not going to criticise anyone's choice of tyre, but you would need to be very ill educated to think they don't give you an advantage and I'm afraid some on here appear to fit that description.

Ah, but have you driven a SpecB, yes or no?

[DoubleD]

4 wheel drive cars have more wheels with power to them to find grip. But its the tyres that actually grip the surface.

[ericmcn]

Pericoloso said:

Subaru fanboy reported you.
Wonder who that was ......

no idea what you talking about, . There is a reason why Subaru dont sell in the UK not least due to this snobbish attitude towards them. Subarus handle the finest - if posters disagree well, whatever makes them happy

[WestyCarl]

InitialDave said:

Caddyshack said:

If you don’t want winters then don’t buy them. I bought a set and have been a convert ever since and when it does sometimes snow you can drive safely when others are getting stuck.

I'd be interested in finding out how many people have used winter tyres over a winter and not become converts.

I bought a set of winters 4 yrs ago for when we drive to the Alps every Feb skiing. They are fantastic and I get get my RWD BMW up to snow covered Alpine villages with no issues at all.

However, despite being a convert to the ability of Winters, I have never really used them in the UK (Midlands), as I've never really felt the need. During winter I drive to the conditions and on the few days there is snow the roads are usually gridlocked with muppets so I just stay at home / walk.

[mcpoot]

DoubleD said:

4 wheel drive cars have more wheels with power to them to find grip. But its the tyres that actually grip the surface.

But have you driven a SpecB?

[CarbonXKR]

mcpoot said:

Ah, but have you driven a SpecB, yes or no?

I've driven a Subura WRX many years ago and was astonished at the level of grip when cornering. My X Type of old with AWD was similar but didn't have near the grunt, great in the cold slippy roads up North.... My S type was better left in the garage - as was my Monaro replacement. Neither of the two could reverse up the drive with only a hint of frost

[DoubleD]

mcpoot said:

DoubleD said:

4 wheel drive cars have more wheels with power to them to find grip. But its the tyres that actually grip the surface.

But have you driven a SpecB?

No, but I hear that they are lovely.

[Caddyshack]

CarbonXKR said:

I've driven a Subura WRX many years ago and was astonished at the level of grip when cornering.;)

4wd does not generate grip when cornering, it provides traction. The rubber contact patch is the same as any other car. I think though that your car felt surefooted and had grip when you punched the throttle.

[InitialDave]

blade7 said:

Never been stuck, should I want them?

Neither have I. Well, not stuck stuck.I still rate them for winter use, it just makes everything easier/better.

If you ever get the opportunity to drive something that's "properly" set up for winter use (winter tyres coupled with four wheel drive and locking diffs, preferably with some decent grunt to drive the whole malarkey), give it a go, it really puts the "I've always been fine on normal tyres in my 2wd cars" argument into perspective. "Take it easy with smooth inputs and you'll be fine" turns into just cranking up Immigrant Song and powersliding 2+ tons of truck through nearly foot-deep snowdrifts on country road junctions. The only thing I've found that makes it possible to drive in quite such an idiotic manner in winter conditions is the original Panda 4x4.

ericmcn said:

SpecB is quite a bit faster and if you have them mapped for high octance fuel like mine is then 0-60 is even quicker, anyway I prefer a flat 6 with a glorious noise with AWD anyday of the week - A 370Z would be more what I would aim for in terms of a fast coupe.

Neither are especially fast, and to be honest, on-paper figures have become far less important to me than how a car feels to drive as I've got older and experienced more stuff. While I agree that 6 cylinders cuts down on the traditional Subaru "moron farting down a drainpipe" exhaust note, an I6 is still better!

Here's the thing, you seem to have tried one AWD car and no winter tyres, and are trying to argue the point with people who have driven many different kinds of AWD car, in addition to FWD and RWD cars, on summer, all-season, and winter tyres.

mcpoot said:

Ah, but have you driven a SpecB, yes or no?

I'll pre-empt this: No, I haven't driven a SpecB. But I've driven a Subaru with effectively the same AWD system (and less weight up front - spoiler: it still understeered when pushed) along with many, many other cars. If you think your Scoob is a good demonstration of AWD from that era, drive a Skyline GTR. I'm not necessarily a fan of how they deliver the performance, but they are an impressive bit of kit.

ericmcn said:

Subarus handle the finest - if posters disagree well, whatever makes them happy

Ok, fine: You are wrong. They do not. You seem to lack the experience to argue this point.

WestyCarl said:

I bought a set of winters 4 yrs ago for when we drive to the Alps every Feb skiing. They are fantastic and I get get my RWD BMW up to snow covered Alpine villages with no issues at all.

However, despite being a convert to the ability of Winters, I have never really used them in the UK (Midlands), as I've never really felt the need. During winter I drive to the conditions and on the few days there is snow the roads are usually gridlocked with muppets so I just stay at home / walk.

Not an unreasonable point. I don't run winters on all my cars, because it's not justified (I'm in the midlands as well), but I do on several of them, and I find it's noticeably better.

Edited by InitialDave on Friday 19th October 21:43

[Kawasicki]

Caddyshack said:

blade7 said:

I've safely negotiated cold weather for years without winter tyres, how would they have benefited me?

They last longer and grip better. They are not snake oil. If you can stop in a shorter distance, pull away harder and steer better in wet weather is that not a good thing? (This is pistonheads)


I am not suggesting that you crash without them, I was answering the poster who said the are only beneficial for less than a month but the negative posters cannot seem to read that.

If you don’t want winters then don’t buy them. I bought a set and have been a convert ever since and when it does sometimes snow you can drive safely when others are getting stuck.

I was pulling people out of ditches round here 3 yrs ago.

Winters are great on snow, but I’m not convinced with wet or dry grip, even though I know what the consensus view is.

[ericmcn]

CarbonXKR said:

I'm about to get a 4WD towards the end of December and from what I've seen and read on the new car, the "intelligent AWD" will suit roads here in Scotland over the winter months.
I have winters waiting to go on that worked extremely well on my XF last winter - night vs day - in the colder weather.
Some of the doubters here that say they don't need them and get on just fine are probably right i.e. they have "managed" over the previous winters in their driving career/location etc. However in the colder areas of the UK, winters really do outperform and are a price I'm happy to pay for our families safety. It's all about personal preference and I'm not going to criticise anyone's choice of tyre, but you would need to be very ill educated to think they don't give you an advantage and I'm afraid some on here appear to fit that description.

whatever about the naysayers AWD is fantastic - especially a proper AWD with 50:50 split - faster off the mark, loads of grip, can do roundabouts and corners at silly speeds, traction and generally very safe indeed. Its not too surprising to see less than glowing remarks on it what with most people in England spaced out on German cars which as you know cannot be beaten.

[mcpoot]

mcpoot said:

Ah, but have you driven a SpecB, yes or no?

InitialDave said:

I'll pre-empt this: No, I haven't driven a SpecB. But I've driven a Subaru with effectively the same AWD system (and less weight up front - spoiler: it still understeered when pushed) along with many, many other cars. If you think your Scoob is a good demonstration of AWD from that era, drive a Skyline GTR. I'm not necessarily a fan of how they deliver the performance, but they are an impressive bit of kit.

I think you need to adjust your sarcasm detector.

Edited by mcpoot on Friday 19th October 21:46

[InitialDave]

mcpoot said:

I think you need to adjust your sarcasm detector.

You know he's going to bring it up! Doesn't matter how many I've driven, owned, or still own!

[ericmcn]

InitialDave said:

ericmcn said:

SpecB is quite a bit faster and if you have them mapped for high octance fuel like mine is then 0-60 is even quicker, anyway I prefer a flat 6 with a glorious noise with AWD anyday of the week - A 370Z would be more what I would aim for in terms of a fast coupe.

Neither are especially fast, and to be honest, on-paper figures have become far less important to me than how a car feels to drive as I've got older and experienced more stuff. While I agree that 6 cylinders cuts down on the traditional Subaru "moron farting down a drainpipe" exhaust note, an I6 is still better!

Here's the thing, you seem to have tried one AWD car and no winter tyres, and are trying to argue the point with people who have driven many different kinds of AWD car, in addition to FWD and RWD cars, on summer, all-season, and winter tyres.

Subarus handle the finest - if posters disagree well, whatever makes them happy

Ok, fine: You are wrong. They do not. You seem to lack the experience to argue this point.

Edited by InitialDave on Friday 19th October 21:43

i suggest you listen to a H6 with a proper exhaust and a set of raptor headers, it will make an i6, sound...average.
I wont argue with your comment on Subaru handling, you clearly are a source of untold wisdom in the automotive world and lowly Subaru clonkers that can do 150mph+ are best kept to cess pits. meanwhile most of the developed world would disagree with you.

[TooMany2cvs]

InitialDave said:

I'd be interested in finding out how many people have used winter tyres over a winter and not become converts.

I first tried 'em when I decided a set of four plus scabby alloys were about the same cost as the excess I saved when I narrowly missed the front of a brand new 5-series, down a Chiltern back lane within earshot of the M25, after an October snow dump.

Converted? Hallebloodylujah...

[mcpoot]

All these "What car..." threads are now redundant. The answer is simple, "Have you driven a SpecB?"

[anonymous-user]

ericmcn said:

i suggest you listen to a H6 with a proper exhaust and a set of raptor headers, it will make an i6, sound...average.
I wont argue with your comment on Subaru handling, you clearly are a source of untold wisdom in the automotive world and lowly Subaru clonkers that can do 150mph+ are best kept to cess pits. meanwhile most of the developed world would disagree with you.

In fairness it's not a particularly quick car.

[InitialDave]

ericmcn said:

meanwhile most of the develped world would disagfree with you.

Not at all, I normally only get into the arguments about Subarus with Aussies.

But no, I'm not a font of all knowledge - however, I have been fortunate to drive a lot of different vehicles, spanning more than a century of development in what's been road legal in the UK, and I tend not to express an opinion on stuff I don't know much about.

You think Subaru AWD is the best in the whole wide world bar none, apparently based on owning one middle-of-the-road mid-2000s Subaru, and think winter tyres offer little to no benefit, apparently based on trying precisely zero winter tyres.

Bluntly?

TooMany2cvs said:

Converted? Hallebloodylujah...

I mean, seriously, this guy doesn't agree with anyone.