RE: Ariel Atom 4 vs. Caterham Seven 620S
Discussion
This is a refreshingly great article from PH, so thanks for that. I have had the good fortune to have experience of both of these cars. OK a slight exaggeration - I have driven an Atom on an experience day ("leave it in third") and a good friend has a Westfield Megabusa. I should add, the Megabusa has been supercharged, and is predominantly carbon fibre. The result is 305bhp and 450kg. It hurts. Acceleration hurts, braking hurts, and the corners all hurt. The Atom is very refined by comparison, but horrendously uncomfortable, the gearchange in the 'experience day' miler I drive was sloppy, to the point where the instructor felt abused by the time my 3 laps were over. As drivers cars they're both great. but I have a preference for the Lotus 7 reincarnation - irrespective what it is.
BFleming said:
The Atom is very refined by comparison, but horrendously uncomfortable
The first one I drove had the original bench seats, they were awful. Changing them to Tilletts transforms the feel of the car. With these it's actually one of the most comfortable positions in any car I have owned. Good article
Wish I never dithered about putting a deposit on the atom 4 now..
I've just sold my Zenos E10R and am looking for another toy but to wait for 2 years for an atom 4 would be painful.
I have had an atom 2 supercharged and loved it's wakiness but was very skitty on the road and heavy rear end proved challenging as well as it's width. So I can really see the appeal of the caterham for its footprint alone!
I'm a bit of a power freak so not sure I'd settle for anything less than a 620 caterham or charged atom at the moment.
The atom 3/3.5 is still drawing me in
Wish I never dithered about putting a deposit on the atom 4 now..
I've just sold my Zenos E10R and am looking for another toy but to wait for 2 years for an atom 4 would be painful.
I have had an atom 2 supercharged and loved it's wakiness but was very skitty on the road and heavy rear end proved challenging as well as it's width. So I can really see the appeal of the caterham for its footprint alone!
I'm a bit of a power freak so not sure I'd settle for anything less than a 620 caterham or charged atom at the moment.
The atom 3/3.5 is still drawing me in
I think they'll always be a market for the earlier cars, tbh, the supercharged 3.5 is a pretty well balanced car, especially with decent dampers. I know times change so you just have to accept that FI is more turbo than supercharged. I still believe a sorted 3.5 is about as close as you can come to madness in a road car.
jason61c said:
Caterhams have been massively overpriced kitcars for years. Very capable, however factory builds aren’t great quality, especially given the massive amount they cost.
This has got worse over the years, and in my eyes £50k on a 7 is just bonkers regardless of how fast it is. ‘Back in the day day’ when you bought a high spec 7 (R500, R400, R300 etc) you at least got the performance stuff thrown in ... big brakes, TB’s, 6 speed box, bespoke chassis in the 500 etc. Appreciate some of the engine specs could be a bit flakey !!!These days you get nothing by comparison.
Flip side is obviously residuals buying used which are unbelievably good if you buy carefully.
Yes- not many others on a Seven ! Well, apart from the gaping chasm at either side of the carbon dash on my last one . It doesn't matter really , but it might to some who are being asked to pay Porsche money for what, superficially anyway, can look like Reliant Robin build quality....
40-46k for what? engine and some scaffolding? always baffled at prices of those "special cars" that literally are made of 20% of parts of a "normal" car.
racing pedigree name bla bla still, what's the justification for charging nearly 50 grand for a car with a tarp over your head? surely a lotus of some kind would be a better option...or maybe i'm getting old!
racing pedigree name bla bla still, what's the justification for charging nearly 50 grand for a car with a tarp over your head? surely a lotus of some kind would be a better option...or maybe i'm getting old!
likesachange said:
The atom 3/3.5 is still drawing me in
Two things:1) buy both
2) get a 3.5 over a 3
You'll get virtually all of your money back on the former, whilst you wait for the latter. Simples #manmaths
The 4 is like night & day over any previous Atoms. I've been in one, with Ariel's development driver, having had all previous incarnations over the 11 years of owning them. I know the cars reasonably well.
Cheers,
Hedge
cvega said:
40-46k for what? engine and some scaffolding? always baffled at prices of those "special cars" that literally are made of 20% of parts of a "normal" car.
racing pedigree name bla bla still, what's the justification for charging nearly 50 grand for a car with a tarp over your head? surely a lotus of some kind would be a better option...or maybe i'm getting old!
One of the best driving experiences you can get on the road at any price, you just have to accept buying into Caterham ownership which requires a few compromises. We're having a break after 16 years of 'fast road' type touring, I don't miss the compromises but there is no doubt whatsoever that everything else just feels like a backward step in terms of driver involvement. racing pedigree name bla bla still, what's the justification for charging nearly 50 grand for a car with a tarp over your head? surely a lotus of some kind would be a better option...or maybe i'm getting old!
You certainly don't need to spend £50k on a 620 spec car to get this though !! Many would argue that 160 to 200 bhp is a good sweet spot for road use and the big advantage of the 7 over the Atom is there is luggage space for touring. Size of the S3 is also a huge part of it and I would concur with all the comments on this, just feels like a go kart on the road and gives you so many options for placement that you just don't get with a normal car. The lack of weight and the impact this has when pressing on is a joy, particularly noticeable when you follow a tin top and appreciate how little you are using the brakes by comparison !!
Simon Owen said:
One of the best driving experiences you can get on the road at any price, you just have to accept buying into Caterham ownership which requires a few compromises. We're having a break after 16 years of 'fast road' type touring, I don't miss the compromises but there is no doubt whatsoever that everything else just feels like a backward step in terms of driver involvement.
You certainly don't need to spend £50k on a 620 spec car to get this though !! Many would argue that 160 to 200 bhp is a good sweet spot for road use and the big advantage of the 7 over the Atom is there is luggage space for touring. Size of the S3 is also a huge part of it and I would concur with all the comments on this, just feels like a go kart on the road and gives you so many options for placement that you just don't get with a normal car. The lack of weight and the impact this has when pressing on is a joy, particularly noticeable when you follow a tin top and appreciate how little you are using the brakes by comparison !!
Some points of mine..................…You certainly don't need to spend £50k on a 620 spec car to get this though !! Many would argue that 160 to 200 bhp is a good sweet spot for road use and the big advantage of the 7 over the Atom is there is luggage space for touring. Size of the S3 is also a huge part of it and I would concur with all the comments on this, just feels like a go kart on the road and gives you so many options for placement that you just don't get with a normal car. The lack of weight and the impact this has when pressing on is a joy, particularly noticeable when you follow a tin top and appreciate how little you are using the brakes by comparison !!
I've had many fast cars but fast does not = fun IMO
I like fast but you buy a fast car to have fun and anything that does well over 100mph easily is not needed on the road.
I've considered an R8 V10 cabrio as my fun car but its big heavy and likes to do silly speeds before it feels fun.
The most fun car I've ever owned was a Caterham R400 Duratec……….sometimes it felt a little slow though!
I need another Caterham I think but one with at least 200hp, preferably 310!
150mph flat out is more than enough as long as you can get to 60 in 3 secs
Caterham prices are crazy but that's just the way they are, Westfields and Atoms are crazy too.
Edited by mike150 on Monday 22 October 10:54
mike150 said:
Simon Owen said:
One of the best driving experiences you can get on the road at any price, you just have to accept buying into Caterham ownership which requires a few compromises. We're having a break after 16 years of 'fast road' type touring, I don't miss the compromises but there is no doubt whatsoever that everything else just feels like a backward step in terms of driver involvement.
You certainly don't need to spend £50k on a 620 spec car to get this though !! Many would argue that 160 to 200 bhp is a good sweet spot for road use and the big advantage of the 7 over the Atom is there is luggage space for touring. Size of the S3 is also a huge part of it and I would concur with all the comments on this, just feels like a go kart on the road and gives you so many options for placement that you just don't get with a normal car. The lack of weight and the impact this has when pressing on is a joy, particularly noticeable when you follow a tin top and appreciate how little you are using the brakes by comparison !!
Some points of mine..................…You certainly don't need to spend £50k on a 620 spec car to get this though !! Many would argue that 160 to 200 bhp is a good sweet spot for road use and the big advantage of the 7 over the Atom is there is luggage space for touring. Size of the S3 is also a huge part of it and I would concur with all the comments on this, just feels like a go kart on the road and gives you so many options for placement that you just don't get with a normal car. The lack of weight and the impact this has when pressing on is a joy, particularly noticeable when you follow a tin top and appreciate how little you are using the brakes by comparison !!
I've had many fast cars but fast does not = fun IMO
I like fast but you buy a fast car to have fun and anything that does well over 100mph easily is not needed on the road.
I've considered an R8 V10 cabrio as my fun car but its big heavy and likes to do silly speeds before it feels fun.
The most fun car I've ever owned was a Caterham R400 Duratec……….sometimes it felt a little slow though!
I need another Caterham I think but one with at least 200hp, preferably 310!
150mph flat out is more than enough as long as you can get to 60 in 3 secs
Caterham prices are crazy but that's just the way they are, Westfields and Atoms are crazy too.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 22 October 10:54
I couldn't justify the cost of these two cars, given what my westfield gives me. I'm no driving god, so don't need all that excess lunacy. I can spin the back wheels with 180bhp and can use a lot more of the westfiled performance than I could with something like this
keirik said:
mike150 said:
Simon Owen said:
One of the best driving experiences you can get on the road at any price, you just have to accept buying into Caterham ownership which requires a few compromises. We're having a break after 16 years of 'fast road' type touring, I don't miss the compromises but there is no doubt whatsoever that everything else just feels like a backward step in terms of driver involvement.
You certainly don't need to spend £50k on a 620 spec car to get this though !! Many would argue that 160 to 200 bhp is a good sweet spot for road use and the big advantage of the 7 over the Atom is there is luggage space for touring. Size of the S3 is also a huge part of it and I would concur with all the comments on this, just feels like a go kart on the road and gives you so many options for placement that you just don't get with a normal car. The lack of weight and the impact this has when pressing on is a joy, particularly noticeable when you follow a tin top and appreciate how little you are using the brakes by comparison !!
Some points of mine..................…You certainly don't need to spend £50k on a 620 spec car to get this though !! Many would argue that 160 to 200 bhp is a good sweet spot for road use and the big advantage of the 7 over the Atom is there is luggage space for touring. Size of the S3 is also a huge part of it and I would concur with all the comments on this, just feels like a go kart on the road and gives you so many options for placement that you just don't get with a normal car. The lack of weight and the impact this has when pressing on is a joy, particularly noticeable when you follow a tin top and appreciate how little you are using the brakes by comparison !!
I've had many fast cars but fast does not = fun IMO
I like fast but you buy a fast car to have fun and anything that does well over 100mph easily is not needed on the road.
I've considered an R8 V10 cabrio as my fun car but its big heavy and likes to do silly speeds before it feels fun.
The most fun car I've ever owned was a Caterham R400 Duratec……….sometimes it felt a little slow though!
I need another Caterham I think but one with at least 200hp, preferably 310!
150mph flat out is more than enough as long as you can get to 60 in 3 secs
Caterham prices are crazy but that's just the way they are, Westfields and Atoms are crazy too.
Edited by mike150 on Monday 22 October 10:54
I couldn't justify the cost of these two cars, given what my westfield gives me. I'm no driving god, so don't need all that excess lunacy. I can spin the back wheels with 180bhp and can use a lot more of the westfiled performance than I could with something like this
I love both of these cars. I'm going to own a Seven one day, unfortunately it will be an SV as I'm 6' 7" and I literally don't fit in the driver's seat of a regular chassis'd Seven. I have no idea if I'd fit in an Atom, I imagine my knees could poke through the spaceframe if necessary...
I have to say though, if I had to spend £50,000 on one or both, I would buy a (second-hand) Atom and a more 'sensible' Seven. The Atom is supposed to be mental - a four wheeled motorbike, whereas the Seven for me is not about outright speed, it's about the delicacy and purity of driving it. I think this would be better experienced in a model more similar to the original Lotus Seven, such as a Roadsport. I've been in a Seven with 190bhp (VHPD K-series) and it felt ludicrously fast out of corners, and driving at just 80mph on the motorway was ear-bendingly mental. The exhaust was on my side with virtually no silencer though.
I have to say though, if I had to spend £50,000 on one or both, I would buy a (second-hand) Atom and a more 'sensible' Seven. The Atom is supposed to be mental - a four wheeled motorbike, whereas the Seven for me is not about outright speed, it's about the delicacy and purity of driving it. I think this would be better experienced in a model more similar to the original Lotus Seven, such as a Roadsport. I've been in a Seven with 190bhp (VHPD K-series) and it felt ludicrously fast out of corners, and driving at just 80mph on the motorway was ear-bendingly mental. The exhaust was on my side with virtually no silencer though.
All the idiots who say 'why is it £50k for an engine and some scaffolding' can f4k off back to their diesel auto Audis. These are premium products and premium prices are charged as a result. Further, comparing Caterhams to Westfields is folly as Caterhams, are much better put together and hence that is why they cost more.
A brand new standard Porsche 718 Boxster is more expensive than either of these. Of course, the 718 has creature comforts that neither of these two cars do (once its optioned up to £60k), but the Boxster feels dull and heavy in comparison with either of these cars.
The Atom 4 is only £4000 more than a Ducati V4 Speciale, and will likely be a lot more comfortable. The Caterham is of course more expensive, but having recently driven a 420R, I found it very very comfortable. You can get heated seats in them, there are LED headlights, and in this day and age of smartphones and bluetooth speakers, one does not even need to be without the toys of more expensive cars.
As a biker, I'll admit I have often struggled to see the point of the Atom, as it seems to offer all the compromises of a bike (no heating, you get wet in the rain), without any of the positives (filtering, wheelying, leaning in corners), but I'll take the words of bikers like Yonex at face value, as he says the Atom is an absolute riot, not having to deal with leathers etc
A brand new standard Porsche 718 Boxster is more expensive than either of these. Of course, the 718 has creature comforts that neither of these two cars do (once its optioned up to £60k), but the Boxster feels dull and heavy in comparison with either of these cars.
The Atom 4 is only £4000 more than a Ducati V4 Speciale, and will likely be a lot more comfortable. The Caterham is of course more expensive, but having recently driven a 420R, I found it very very comfortable. You can get heated seats in them, there are LED headlights, and in this day and age of smartphones and bluetooth speakers, one does not even need to be without the toys of more expensive cars.
As a biker, I'll admit I have often struggled to see the point of the Atom, as it seems to offer all the compromises of a bike (no heating, you get wet in the rain), without any of the positives (filtering, wheelying, leaning in corners), but I'll take the words of bikers like Yonex at face value, as he says the Atom is an absolute riot, not having to deal with leathers etc
On the issue of money.
A chassis from Arch, pay someone to design it, then factor £6K to build and paint (minimum). Engine, a new K20C1 with gearbox, 7K. Wheels, £1000, brakes, £2000. Then some bodywork, tyres, manufacturing costs, warranty, spares.... I would guess the raw build cost is somewhere around 20-24K. Is 40K unreasonable? A Lotus 3-11 starts at £82K. If what we are hearing is correct it's about to have some very serious competition. BAC Mono, the last one I looked at was £225K.
It's daft to say, it's a pile of metal and plastic.
A chassis from Arch, pay someone to design it, then factor £6K to build and paint (minimum). Engine, a new K20C1 with gearbox, 7K. Wheels, £1000, brakes, £2000. Then some bodywork, tyres, manufacturing costs, warranty, spares.... I would guess the raw build cost is somewhere around 20-24K. Is 40K unreasonable? A Lotus 3-11 starts at £82K. If what we are hearing is correct it's about to have some very serious competition. BAC Mono, the last one I looked at was £225K.
It's daft to say, it's a pile of metal and plastic.
BlackPrince said:
comparing Caterhams to Westfields is folly as Caterhams, are much better put together and hence that is why they cost more.
Really? They are definitely different, and are metal rather than grp body shell certainly and there's some good old fashioned metalworking in there which is very impressive, and that costs more, but in what way are they better put together?
Torquey said:
I can only imagine these take some serious talent to drive. Something I'd probably never be capable of.
Is it even possible to hire/try something like this on a trackday?
I cant help but compare the numbers to a Veyron. Would love to think these have something the Veyron doesn't.
The fun part is: even at moderate speed these cars are huge fun. I drove a Fireblade engined 7 and anyone can accelerate. Within a few turns you've learned to take a corner in a proper way. Just because you feel everything!Is it even possible to hire/try something like this on a trackday?
I cant help but compare the numbers to a Veyron. Would love to think these have something the Veyron doesn't.
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