RE: Ariel Atom 4 vs. Caterham Seven 620S
Discussion
keirik said:
Really?
They are definitely different, and are metal rather than grp body shell certainly and there's some good old fashioned metalworking in there which is very impressive, and that costs more, but in what way are they better put together?
Anecdotal, but 2 mates that own them have had some reliability issues (electrical), plus I've read numerous issues on the WSCC forum. In contrast, Caterhams seem to be fairly reliable (some issues with cold weather starts with 620Rs aside)They are definitely different, and are metal rather than grp body shell certainly and there's some good old fashioned metalworking in there which is very impressive, and that costs more, but in what way are they better put together?
Torquey said:
I can only imagine these take some serious talent to drive. Something I'd probably never be capable of.
Is it even possible to hire/try something like this on a trackday?
I cant help but compare the numbers to a Veyron. Would love to think these have something the Veyron doesn't.
The lower powered (than the 620S) R500 was faster than the silly Veyron on the TG test track of course . And about 950k cheaper. And its tyres don't cost 25 k a set . So the Seven's a bargain then ... Is it even possible to hire/try something like this on a trackday?
I cant help but compare the numbers to a Veyron. Would love to think these have something the Veyron doesn't.
Torquey said:
I can only imagine these take some serious talent to drive. Something I'd probably never be capable of.
Is it even possible to hire/try something like this on a trackday?
Once you've got a bit of experience driving a Seven, the 620 isn't as terrifying as you'd think to drive. Well, to a certain extent...Is it even possible to hire/try something like this on a trackday?
But yes, you can hire one through Bookatrack: https://www.bookatrack.com/track-car-hire
cvega said:
40-46k for what? engine and some scaffolding? always baffled at prices of those "special cars" that literally are made of 20% of parts of a "normal" car.
racing pedigree name bla bla still, what's the justification for charging nearly 50 grand for a car with a tarp over your head? surely a lotus of some kind would be a better option...or maybe i'm getting old!
but it's hardly just the raw materials - R&D, production costs, marketing, finance.... they have to operate a full business with comparatively tiny revenues, and the public will still (probably rightly) demand the same level of quality finish as with something by VAG who have 10,000s of people and literally billions to spend on product development. .racing pedigree name bla bla still, what's the justification for charging nearly 50 grand for a car with a tarp over your head? surely a lotus of some kind would be a better option...or maybe i'm getting old!
I doubt there are huge margins on those cars and enough smaller manufacturers have struggled enough to show what a tough business this to be in - i bet there are decent margins on spares though... but can't begrudge any business trying to actually make some money.
If i had 50k to spend on a track car i would... well, spend half of it on a racecar, go much faster, and race for two seasons before the money ran out.
If someone said their £50k gift could *only* be spent on a track car, I would say thankyou very much and likely try the Atom. I've tried both older/lower powered versions at Palmersport; the Atom was just mega.
cidered77 said:
but it's hardly just the raw materials - R&D, production costs, marketing, finance.... they have to operate a full business with comparatively tiny revenues, and the public will still (probably rightly) demand the same level of quality finish as with something by VAG who have 10,000s of people and literally billions to spend on product development. .
I doubt there are huge margins on those cars and enough smaller manufacturers have struggled enough to show what a tough business this to be in - i bet there are decent margins on spares though... but can't begrudge any business trying to actually make some money.
If i had 50k to spend on a track car i would... well, spend half of it on a racecar, go much faster, and race for two seasons before the money ran out.
If someone said their £50k gift could *only* be spent on a track car, I would say thankyou very much and likely try the Atom. I've tried both older/lower powered versions at Palmersport; the Atom was just mega.
I looked into that. After you’ve bought a decent formula type car it’s certain test days or sprint series. Then trailers, hotels, tow car etc. If you race that £25K will disappear rapidly, even without accident damage or breakdowns, consumables.I doubt there are huge margins on those cars and enough smaller manufacturers have struggled enough to show what a tough business this to be in - i bet there are decent margins on spares though... but can't begrudge any business trying to actually make some money.
If i had 50k to spend on a track car i would... well, spend half of it on a racecar, go much faster, and race for two seasons before the money ran out.
If someone said their £50k gift could *only* be spent on a track car, I would say thankyou very much and likely try the Atom. I've tried both older/lower powered versions at Palmersport; the Atom was just mega.
Factor in depreciation and things like these make sense. You can take them go pretty much any track day drive there and back then do a school run.
yonex said:
cidered77 said:
but it's hardly just the raw materials - R&D, production costs, marketing, finance.... they have to operate a full business with comparatively tiny revenues, and the public will still (probably rightly) demand the same level of quality finish as with something by VAG who have 10,000s of people and literally billions to spend on product development. .
I doubt there are huge margins on those cars and enough smaller manufacturers have struggled enough to show what a tough business this to be in - i bet there are decent margins on spares though... but can't begrudge any business trying to actually make some money.
If i had 50k to spend on a track car i would... well, spend half of it on a racecar, go much faster, and race for two seasons before the money ran out.
If someone said their £50k gift could *only* be spent on a track car, I would say thankyou very much and likely try the Atom. I've tried both older/lower powered versions at Palmersport; the Atom was just mega.
I looked into that. After you’ve bought a decent formula type car it’s certain test days or sprint series. Then trailers, hotels, tow car etc. If you race that £25K will disappear rapidly, even without accident damage or breakdowns, consumables.I doubt there are huge margins on those cars and enough smaller manufacturers have struggled enough to show what a tough business this to be in - i bet there are decent margins on spares though... but can't begrudge any business trying to actually make some money.
If i had 50k to spend on a track car i would... well, spend half of it on a racecar, go much faster, and race for two seasons before the money ran out.
If someone said their £50k gift could *only* be spent on a track car, I would say thankyou very much and likely try the Atom. I've tried both older/lower powered versions at Palmersport; the Atom was just mega.
Factor in depreciation and things like these make sense. You can take them go pretty much any track day drive there and back then do a school run.
They are just so much faster. The first "Holy Trinity" comparison test at Silverstone National shows even a Carrera GT with a professional driver slower than our laptimes there. I did a 47 second lap at Brands Indy last weekend - quicker than the BTTC qualifying record. Atoms and Caterhams are fun because more power than grip - but how long can you powerslide on a track day for without getting a black flag? Skids are fun, but nothing i've experienced driving matches the sensation of bouncing on the rev limiter in 4th at 100mph+ around Coram at Snetterton - pulling 2g. Downforce is just so ... much... fun.
I you never raced, you could have so much fun testing. There are loads of test days - and they are just brilliant. You're on track with everything - i did a £100 1 hour session at Silverstone GP earlier this year, but it was before the Blaincpain weekend, so it was basically a Lamborghini Super Trofeo test session...20 of them... and me.... and a Lotus Cortina. I've done plenty of tests shared with BTTC (they take no prisoners overtaking), and best of all was before a Historical Masters event, sharing track, being over taken, and even overtaking cars like the Lancia LC2, Porsche 935k, GT40s, and several DFV F1 cars from the 80s. No rules on indicating to overtake, or not timing - and share track with professionals or amateurs who dont want to ruin their weekend with a testing incident - so driving standards are about the same as track days (i.e. mostly good, but there's always one loon).
Expense wise, testing costs about 30%-50% more, you need an race license (£300 quid for a test?) and the full kit. Otherwise a Sports 2000 runs a stock Duratec, the gearbox is bullet proof, and brakes/pads no worse than a road car considering the 520kg weight. Tyres do cost - but whilst they lose competitiveness after 2 heat cycles, they actually last a lot longer - they just arent as fast.
If i had that 50 grand, and I knew what motorsport testing felt like - I couldn't look another way. Course you need a trailer, and they break a lot so you need to know what you're doing (or know - and pay - someone who does), but i'm saving 25 grand already with my cheaper much faster car.
The key issue is you can't really be a car fan, get a license, have a racecar, and then not want to race. And then it gets more expensive - i pay about 20k a year for someone to run me, and tyres every event. And the b
d thing did 100 laps in testing and qualifying at Brands last weekend then lost a cylinder at the second attempt at starting race 1 this weekend and it was all for nothing...but hey ho that's racing 
yonex said:
cidered77 said:
but it's hardly just the raw materials - R&D, production costs, marketing, finance.... they have to operate a full business with comparatively tiny revenues, and the public will still (probably rightly) demand the same level of quality finish as with something by VAG who have 10,000s of people and literally billions to spend on product development. .
I doubt there are huge margins on those cars and enough smaller manufacturers have struggled enough to show what a tough business this to be in - i bet there are decent margins on spares though... but can't begrudge any business trying to actually make some money.
If i had 50k to spend on a track car i would... well, spend half of it on a racecar, go much faster, and race for two seasons before the money ran out.
If someone said their £50k gift could *only* be spent on a track car, I would say thankyou very much and likely try the Atom. I've tried both older/lower powered versions at Palmersport; the Atom was just mega.
I looked into that. After you’ve bought a decent formula type car it’s certain test days or sprint series. Then trailers, hotels, tow car etc. If you race that £25K will disappear rapidly, even without accident damage or breakdowns, consumables.I doubt there are huge margins on those cars and enough smaller manufacturers have struggled enough to show what a tough business this to be in - i bet there are decent margins on spares though... but can't begrudge any business trying to actually make some money.
If i had 50k to spend on a track car i would... well, spend half of it on a racecar, go much faster, and race for two seasons before the money ran out.
If someone said their £50k gift could *only* be spent on a track car, I would say thankyou very much and likely try the Atom. I've tried both older/lower powered versions at Palmersport; the Atom was just mega.
Factor in depreciation and things like these make sense. You can take them go pretty much any track day drive there and back then do a school run.
yonex said:
Yes, I’d never be able to not race. Did that before and found out it was one of the finest ways to dispose of money ever invented. Huge highs, and lows.
I’d love to try a single seater one day.
I could have a lot of fun just testing, but, just couldn't then not race
I have done a few track driving experiences, Lambo, Porsche, R8, Ferrari etc etc (my daily drive is a 600bhp GTR)
But my son has just bought me an Atom driving experience for my birthday.... really looking forward to it but a bit concerned the pre-drive instructors always treat anyone who's booked on the Atom experience as a bit insane.... hope it's not raining!
But my son has just bought me an Atom driving experience for my birthday.... really looking forward to it but a bit concerned the pre-drive instructors always treat anyone who's booked on the Atom experience as a bit insane.... hope it's not raining!
Having driven both types of cars (not current and not as powerful), the obvious difference to me was:
Atom - race car feel, controls (pedals and steering) all very heavy but very direct. Felt like it could give so much more than i had the balls to give it but a bit more of a prospect to handle when it goes out of shape. Favours nice smooth inputs much as a mid-engine would,
Seven - built for the road. Yes it does great on track, but comes into it's own when you are having a 'play'. Very forgiven and can be driven more like a hooligan. Will it be ultimately as quick as an Atom? Maybe not, but in my opinion so much more fun.
Atom - race car feel, controls (pedals and steering) all very heavy but very direct. Felt like it could give so much more than i had the balls to give it but a bit more of a prospect to handle when it goes out of shape. Favours nice smooth inputs much as a mid-engine would,
Seven - built for the road. Yes it does great on track, but comes into it's own when you are having a 'play'. Very forgiven and can be driven more like a hooligan. Will it be ultimately as quick as an Atom? Maybe not, but in my opinion so much more fun.
That is possibly the best review on Pistonheads I have ever had the pleasure to read and view. A very fair comparison and well considered review and (by a man with a foot in both camps as far as Ariel and Caterham are concerned) appreciated very much by me.
Its quite exciting how two sports cars from opposite ends of the evolutionary scale can still be considered such close rivals - quite fascinating that.
Truely epic British built machines and I'm liking the way the "A4" moniker Ariel reviews seem to be banding about; could even be construedas a nod to that other epic high speed feat of British engineering the A4 locomotive (ie Mallard). If I'm ever fortunate enough to order myself an A4 from Ariel I'll make it blue and black as a tribute to the loco
However, I've got the Nomad to order first which suits my neck of the woods better in Wales as quick all-rounder, and for everything else at the mo is, you guessed it, a stripped out Caterham and on-road and off-road 2-wheeled machines.
Well done again on this article 10/10 from me (although I really think you should do it all again on a dry & crisp autumn day through the Brecon Beacons).
Brilliant and thanks for the words and pictures on this topic
Its quite exciting how two sports cars from opposite ends of the evolutionary scale can still be considered such close rivals - quite fascinating that.
Truely epic British built machines and I'm liking the way the "A4" moniker Ariel reviews seem to be banding about; could even be construedas a nod to that other epic high speed feat of British engineering the A4 locomotive (ie Mallard). If I'm ever fortunate enough to order myself an A4 from Ariel I'll make it blue and black as a tribute to the loco
However, I've got the Nomad to order first which suits my neck of the woods better in Wales as quick all-rounder, and for everything else at the mo is, you guessed it, a stripped out Caterham and on-road and off-road 2-wheeled machines.
Well done again on this article 10/10 from me (although I really think you should do it all again on a dry & crisp autumn day through the Brecon Beacons).
Brilliant and thanks for the words and pictures on this topic
Have driven both on track...
- Loved the Caterham; it was like a favourite shoe you slipped into and instantly felt at home in, driving on the throttle.
- Hated the Atom for being too open, too high, too hard and, for me, just an engine in the back of a toppled electricity pylon
Bought a 1996 Vauxhall Redtop HPC model Caterham soon after the above test.
I love it to bits. I wouldn't not have a Caterham in my life for all the money on Planet Earth now ten years on...
- Loved the Caterham; it was like a favourite shoe you slipped into and instantly felt at home in, driving on the throttle.
- Hated the Atom for being too open, too high, too hard and, for me, just an engine in the back of a toppled electricity pylon
Bought a 1996 Vauxhall Redtop HPC model Caterham soon after the above test.
I love it to bits. I wouldn't not have a Caterham in my life for all the money on Planet Earth now ten years on...
... its much the same story as the Atom in a 'proper' Caterham - ie a windscreen free Superlight car. Mine is a windscreen-free JPE model from '94 (and I agree with was said about them fitting like a snug shoe - I've had 7x 7's over the years (everything from Xflows, BDR. KSeries, Superlights, R500s and settled on the Swindon tuned VX red-top JPE - its the best thing they ever made IMO) and always avoid the wide SV version seven (although the CSR is a very good seven), and instead squeeze myself into the original narrow body 'S3' car - as I like the snug fit once I'm in) I don't use it in winter but have an Irvin flying jacket in case I want to, and always wear a full face Arai helmet, Sparco gloves and boots. I am planning to order an Ariel Nomad next year as an additional play thing, but can't decide whether to get the windscreen and wiper or not on that, as I don't miss it on the Seven, and Iike the anonymity of using a helmet, much like when I'm on a motorcycle. If Ford had gone into small scale production with the Formula Ford Ecoboost project I'd have ordered one of those - as I like that type of vehicle on road and track - as they really are "4 wheel motorcycles" and nearly as exciting.
Nerdherder said:
Nik Gnashers said:
Thank you, very good article, really enjoyed reading.
I would love either, but I have to admit, when I see an atom, it is an awesome looking thing and stunningly fast yet it just doesn't have that timeless appeal for me. Every time I see a Caterham on the road, I want one so badly.
Amen. 11/10 article, thank you Matt! Absolutely love the darker than usual rained upon pictures too. I would love either, but I have to admit, when I see an atom, it is an awesome looking thing and stunningly fast yet it just doesn't have that timeless appeal for me. Every time I see a Caterham on the road, I want one so badly.
P.s. I'll have a 310 please.
Matt
Whats peoples thoughts on current values... I am in the market for a 310 3.5..
Considering the A4 is comparable to a 3.5R out of the box (even quicker and much better many say who have driven it) at £40k Some of the asking prices of 10 year old models comical. I know its there pride and joy and many just look at others for sale and price accordingly (but the "others" arent selling)
I mean theres an example over 10 years old for well over 35k ?!? I mean i bought a similar spec but newer model for 23k in 2014!
Considering the A4 is comparable to a 3.5R out of the box (even quicker and much better many say who have driven it) at £40k Some of the asking prices of 10 year old models comical. I know its there pride and joy and many just look at others for sale and price accordingly (but the "others" arent selling)
I mean theres an example over 10 years old for well over 35k ?!? I mean i bought a similar spec but newer model for 23k in 2014!
likesachange said:
Whats peoples thoughts on current values... I am in the market for a 310 3.5..
Considering the A4 is comparable to a 3.5R out of the box (even quicker and much better many say who have driven it) at £40k Some of the asking prices of 10 year old models comical. I know its there pride and joy and many just look at others for sale and price accordingly (but the "others" arent selling)
I mean theres an example over 10 years old for well over 35k ?!? I mean i bought a similar spec but newer model for 23k in 2014!
A lot well depend on the options. For example the A4 at 40K is the bare car, not the one you've seen road tested, nor the one in this review. If anything like the previous cars, everything is an optional extra, even the little plastic windscreen. I doubt the 40K even includes the initial IVA, road tax etc.Considering the A4 is comparable to a 3.5R out of the box (even quicker and much better many say who have driven it) at £40k Some of the asking prices of 10 year old models comical. I know its there pride and joy and many just look at others for sale and price accordingly (but the "others" arent selling)
I mean theres an example over 10 years old for well over 35k ?!? I mean i bought a similar spec but newer model for 23k in 2014!
I'd expect a "normal" A4 spec, if such exists to be much closer to 50K for this new car.
The other point on older model prices, is that the waiting list for the new car is, I've heard, over 2 years. And you can't buy a new 3.5 or 3.5R either. Many people would rather have an Atom now, rather than nothing for 2 or more years.
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