Timing chain disaster
Discussion
We had to carry out some warranty work for a customer with an evans halshaw warranty and when you actually got hold of the warranty department they were straight forward and easy to deal with. You would be better off getting the car to a mini specialist and letting them have a look.
Evans Halshaw only cover £35 per hour on the warranty so even if they do cover it you will still have something to pay.
Evans Halshaw only cover £35 per hour on the warranty so even if they do cover it you will still have something to pay.
Ninja59 said:
It will have an N47 BMW engine which is very common to have issues regarding timing chain wear and eventually snapping. How a mechanic has never heard of the N47 issues is beyond me.
Has it had a whirring, whooshing or "ticking" noises before snapping that you have noticed recently?
Chances are (I am not 100% certain if the timing is chain significantly for mini) that the top chain has failed over the other chains, although it might be other parts of the timing chain system where the tensioner has run out of travel, the timing chain guides get chewed and break apart.
In regards to oil levels they are essential to maintaining lubrication as the system has an oil sprayer, so I do think having low oil whether you like it or not if it is below min then it is "low", I would get that "fact" checked though. BUT equally the issues in regards to the N47 timing chains are so common that I think you might be met with a halfway house.
What mileage is on the car?
milage it's done 56k miles its an ex mobility car and it's a 64 plate . I heard the engine a bit louder at times onnthe journey home before It happened but wasn't sure if I was imagining it Has it had a whirring, whooshing or "ticking" noises before snapping that you have noticed recently?
Chances are (I am not 100% certain if the timing is chain significantly for mini) that the top chain has failed over the other chains, although it might be other parts of the timing chain system where the tensioner has run out of travel, the timing chain guides get chewed and break apart.
In regards to oil levels they are essential to maintaining lubrication as the system has an oil sprayer, so I do think having low oil whether you like it or not if it is below min then it is "low", I would get that "fact" checked though. BUT equally the issues in regards to the N47 timing chains are so common that I think you might be met with a halfway house.
What mileage is on the car?
Edited by Ninja59 on Sunday 28th October 17:02
Well the 1st mechanic said it was at the minimum oil level. EH are saying it's slightly below that level so I don't know who is right.
What would be the cost of a new engine or repair like this sorts damage ? Are we taking 6k?
Chromegrill said:
Oil is often ( but not required to be) checked at MoT which was only two weeks ago. Do you know if it was?
If so, how often should you check oil levels? According to Mini every six weeks isn't often enough if that's your personal maintenane routine and they are accusing you of not checking often enough. Indeed every two weeks isn't enough either. What do they suggest? Daily? Before each time you turn on the engine?
Come to think of it, if it's that critical not to drive with low oil levels why not have a dashboard warning light that comes when the levels get too low?
(Ducks for cover...)
The warning light didn't come on? It was checked 3 weeks prior and topped up at that point. So when should I say I was checking the oil level if they ask? If so, how often should you check oil levels? According to Mini every six weeks isn't often enough if that's your personal maintenane routine and they are accusing you of not checking often enough. Indeed every two weeks isn't enough either. What do they suggest? Daily? Before each time you turn on the engine?
Come to think of it, if it's that critical not to drive with low oil levels why not have a dashboard warning light that comes when the levels get too low?
(Ducks for cover...)
Continually running the oil level low may stretch the chain, has it been rattling at start up ? EH warranty won't ask you that, they won't cover a claim until something is in bits and the cause identified. The EH dealer are the problem at the minute.
Price wise, i guess £3500 for an engine supplied and fitted, then allow another £400 for clutch and flywheel while its in bits.
Price wise, i guess £3500 for an engine supplied and fitted, then allow another £400 for clutch and flywheel while its in bits.
steve-5snwi said:
We had to carry out some warranty work for a customer with an evans halshaw warranty and when you actually got hold of the warranty department they were straight forward and easy to deal with. You would be better off getting the car to a mini specialist and letting them have a look.
Evans Halshaw only cover £35 per hour on the warranty so even if they do cover it you will still have something to pay.
The warranty dept were okay it's the people in branch where the car is at that are being so rude. Evans Halshaw only cover £35 per hour on the warranty so even if they do cover it you will still have something to pay.
We were 100% not told that about the warranty. It was sold to us we can claim as many time up to the value of the car and all repairs are paid for if authorised under the policy? What sort of cost are we looking at with a time chain and the damage caused to the engine? Over 3k? Would it likely be a new engine?
The
seveb said:
There is no way the oil level being at the minimum level would result in a timing chain failing.
If the oil warning light was not on - then the chain broke because it's faulty or there was another fault which stopped the engine and snapped the chain. The oil warning light is there for a reason - to warn you that damage is likely to be caused if you continue, so if the light was not on then the failure is not due to low oil level - especially if the oil was only at the bottom level on the dipstick.
Most car manuals suggest waiting until the oil is at the bottom level on the dipstick before topping up because the difference between the top and bottom marks is usually 1 litre and oil is sold in 1 litre bottles.
Agree. Minimum is minimum to ensure normal functioning over a wide range of conditions, with a safety factor. It is not "100ml less will explode your engine". If the oil warning light was not on - then the chain broke because it's faulty or there was another fault which stopped the engine and snapped the chain. The oil warning light is there for a reason - to warn you that damage is likely to be caused if you continue, so if the light was not on then the failure is not due to low oil level - especially if the oil was only at the bottom level on the dipstick.
Most car manuals suggest waiting until the oil is at the bottom level on the dipstick before topping up because the difference between the top and bottom marks is usually 1 litre and oil is sold in 1 litre bottles.
steve-5snwi said:
Continually running the oil level low may stretch the chain, has it been rattling at start up ? EH warranty won't ask you that, they won't cover a claim until something is in bits and the cause identified. The EH dealer are the problem at the minute.
Price wise, i guess £3500 for an engine supplied and fitted, then allow another £400 for clutch and flywheel while its in bits.
Wow! so best part of 4k ? So what amount of that would be paid by the warranty? How can mini identify what happened if the engine has had such bad damage ? EH findings are low oil level as you know which is bullsh*t ! Price wise, i guess £3500 for an engine supplied and fitted, then allow another £400 for clutch and flywheel while its in bits.
If they are saying that oil at the minimum mark causes the chain to fail then the minimum mark is too low. If it is between the marks (not below MIN nor above MAX) then it is in conformance with the owner's manual. It's an attempted wriggle out of responsibility IMO.
Low oil cannot, in itself, cause any failure. It might lead to the oil degrading early due to excess temperature, but if that occurs then what I said about the MIN mark being too low applies. It's a binary state: oil at normal pressure or no oil pressure because the oil is below the pick-up point. It doesn't work on a sliding scale. Gather data from the public domain about other owner's failures and give it to them as evidence that there is a design flaw. BTW it's a sump, not a tank unless it's dry sumped - unlikely.
Low oil cannot, in itself, cause any failure. It might lead to the oil degrading early due to excess temperature, but if that occurs then what I said about the MIN mark being too low applies. It's a binary state: oil at normal pressure or no oil pressure because the oil is below the pick-up point. It doesn't work on a sliding scale. Gather data from the public domain about other owner's failures and give it to them as evidence that there is a design flaw. BTW it's a sump, not a tank unless it's dry sumped - unlikely.
I don’t know owt about these engines, but:
I assume it’s a wet sump and that’s what you mean by oil tank?
Does it have a dipstick and an oil level gauge or just the latter?
When did you last check it and have you ever topped it up.
Was it at the minimum mark on the dipstick. ( note that an oil pressure warning light means stop and switch off -now- even then may be too late)
As another poster said, your first guy if he know it was a warranty job really should have advised you topped it up a bit before getting it towed.
If they are holding fast, and the car has a dipstick, pay your first guy to write a letter stating that that the car had an adequate oil level, above minimum.
I assume it’s a wet sump and that’s what you mean by oil tank?
Does it have a dipstick and an oil level gauge or just the latter?
When did you last check it and have you ever topped it up.
Was it at the minimum mark on the dipstick. ( note that an oil pressure warning light means stop and switch off -now- even then may be too late)
As another poster said, your first guy if he know it was a warranty job really should have advised you topped it up a bit before getting it towed.
If they are holding fast, and the car has a dipstick, pay your first guy to write a letter stating that that the car had an adequate oil level, above minimum.
steve-5snwi said:
Continually running the oil level low may stretch the chain.
How can that be if the oil pressure is normal? The engine's component parts have no way to know whether there's a millimetre or a kilometre of oil above the pick-up. They are attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of an obviously uninformed owner. They must not be allowed to con him/her.motco said:
If they are saying that oil at the minimum mark causes the chain to fail then the minimum mark is too low. If it is between the marks (not below MIN nor above MAX) then it is in conformance with the owner's manual. It's an attempted wriggle out of responsibility IMO.
Low oil cannot, in itself, cause any failure. It might lead to the oil degrading early due to excess temperature, but if that occurs then what I said about the MIN mark being too low applies. It's a binary state: oil at normal pressure or no oil pressure because the oil is below the pick-up point. It doesn't work on a sliding scale. Gather data from the public domain about other owner's failures and give it to them as evidence that there is a design flaw. BTW it's a sump, not a tank unless it's dry sumped - unlikely.
Thanks ! Well the 1st mechanic is saying the oil level is at minimum level and EH are saying it's slightly below the min level.. obviously trying to use any excuse to get out of it. I did argue back and say even if it is slightly below surely that wouldn't cause the engine to seize and timming chain to come off? Low oil cannot, in itself, cause any failure. It might lead to the oil degrading early due to excess temperature, but if that occurs then what I said about the MIN mark being too low applies. It's a binary state: oil at normal pressure or no oil pressure because the oil is below the pick-up point. It doesn't work on a sliding scale. Gather data from the public domain about other owner's failures and give it to them as evidence that there is a design flaw. BTW it's a sump, not a tank unless it's dry sumped - unlikely.
I googled and found sruff about the flaw but it all seems to be 2007-2010 plates that have had the timing chain flaw.
Can't thank everyone enough for your responses. I feel a bit more confident in fighting the claim
Used engines are 2k, you would need to strip lots of bits off the old engine and transfer to the new one, you would want to change some gaskets and seals, the oil and possibly the timing chain while its in bits. The warranty won't cover all the labour given they only pay £35 and most garages will be £50 upwards. Time wise i'd guess it would be 15 hours work.
Get the car moved and get someone to look at it who will know about the engines, you may find EH won't confirm they will cover the engine until its in bits, they wouldn't cover a flywheel failure until the gearbox was out on the job we did, when it was out they just said yes, they wouldn't cover the clutch as its wear and tear.
To move it forward you really do need to move the car. The point about the oil level will just give EH a get out of jail card as it will seem you didn't maintain it. I've seen the older minis run on very low oil levels having put 2-3 litres in them to get them through an mot.
Get the car moved and get someone to look at it who will know about the engines, you may find EH won't confirm they will cover the engine until its in bits, they wouldn't cover a flywheel failure until the gearbox was out on the job we did, when it was out they just said yes, they wouldn't cover the clutch as its wear and tear.
To move it forward you really do need to move the car. The point about the oil level will just give EH a get out of jail card as it will seem you didn't maintain it. I've seen the older minis run on very low oil levels having put 2-3 litres in them to get them through an mot.
EH are booking it in with mini. They haven't got back to me but I did speak to mini on the phone and they said they haven't got any space for bookings until 18th November. Would I be paying for mini to look at it or is that ALL included in the extended warranty ?
EH haven't got a courtesy car until 6th Dec so I am now having to get 2 trains a day to work and back . I work as a Nurse and have oncall 24/7 duty in 2 weeks time....total nightmare without a car !
EH haven't got a courtesy car until 6th Dec so I am now having to get 2 trains a day to work and back . I work as a Nurse and have oncall 24/7 duty in 2 weeks time....total nightmare without a car !
MalcolmSmith said:
I don’t know owt about these engines, but:
I assume it’s a wet sump and that’s what you mean by oil tank?
Does it have a dipstick and an oil level gauge or just the latter?
When did you last check it and have you ever topped it up.
Was it at the minimum mark on the dipstick. ( note that an oil pressure warning light means stop and switch off -now- even then may be too late)
As another poster said, your first guy if he know it was a warranty job really should have advised you topped it up a bit before getting it towed.
If they are holding fast, and the car has a dipstick, pay your first guy to write a letter stating that that the car had an adequate oil level, above minimum.
Yeah sorry I have no idea it was called a wet sump? But yeah that. I checked it about 2 maybe 3 weeks ago and topped it up but I didnt put loads in as it was past the min level. I assume it’s a wet sump and that’s what you mean by oil tank?
Does it have a dipstick and an oil level gauge or just the latter?
When did you last check it and have you ever topped it up.
Was it at the minimum mark on the dipstick. ( note that an oil pressure warning light means stop and switch off -now- even then may be too late)
As another poster said, your first guy if he know it was a warranty job really should have advised you topped it up a bit before getting it towed.
If they are holding fast, and the car has a dipstick, pay your first guy to write a letter stating that that the car had an adequate oil level, above minimum.
There was no oil warning light. I think it's just the dipstick and it was sitting at the minimum oil level when checked .
The 1st mechanic will write a letter. I have his number and he said to call if I need anything for the claim.
In terms of cost of repair, I would humbly suggest it's not too bad. I've seen a few of these engines go bang due to timing chain failure (though normally in a BMW). What usually happens is the rocker arms break, but leave the valves intact. Therefore it's a new chain and a new set of rocker arms. Now clearly this is a bit of a gamble, but I would be tempted to do this if it were mine. Prob 10 hours work, plus a set of bits - Say what £1,000 I suppose. A lot of money I know, but worth a punt.
If the engine internals are now in a bit of a mess, the dipstick level is somewhat irrelevant.
I'd imagine an amount of oil could have been burnt off or lost around the time of the engine failure. I doubt any mechanic could genuinely tell you what the oil level was like pre-accident if the engine is damaged in any way.
I'd imagine an amount of oil could have been burnt off or lost around the time of the engine failure. I doubt any mechanic could genuinely tell you what the oil level was like pre-accident if the engine is damaged in any way.
EH are talking nonsense and just hope you'll go away.
Your first mechanic is correct...low oil will not cause the chain to snap. Low oil pressure might (although I doubt it), but not low oil.
To correct some responses...the warning on the dashboard is not a low oil LEVEL warning per se, it's a low oil PRESSURE warning (which might be due to lack of oil or a failing pump etc). If that light comes on at any time, you're very close to destroying the engine so stop immediately. Assuming that light didn't come on in this case, then the engine had sufficient oil pressure and all should have been well.
Your first mechanic is correct...low oil will not cause the chain to snap. Low oil pressure might (although I doubt it), but not low oil.
To correct some responses...the warning on the dashboard is not a low oil LEVEL warning per se, it's a low oil PRESSURE warning (which might be due to lack of oil or a failing pump etc). If that light comes on at any time, you're very close to destroying the engine so stop immediately. Assuming that light didn't come on in this case, then the engine had sufficient oil pressure and all should have been well.
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