Timing chain disaster

[WoodL]

bearman68 said:

In terms of cost of repair, I would humbly suggest it's not too bad. I've seen a few of these engines go bang due to timing chain failure (though normally in a BMW). What usually happens is the rocker arms break, but leave the valves intact. Therefore it's a new chain and a new set of rocker arms. Now clearly this is a bit of a gamble, but I would be tempted to do this if it were mine. Prob 10 hours work, plus a set of bits - Say what £1,000 I suppose. A lot of money I know, but worth a punt.

I have no idea what that means haha ! I don't even know how bad the damage is as no one has actually told us other than the 1st mechanic that saw it said it was a big job.

I am imagining all sorts of horror prices such as 2-4k sorta thing

[WoodL]

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

EH are talking nonsense and just hope you'll go away.
Your first mechanic is correct...low oil will not cause the chain to snap. Low oil pressure might (although I doubt it), but not low oil.

To correct some responses...the warning on the dashboard is not a low oil LEVEL warning per se, it's a low oil PRESSURE warning (which might be due to lack of oil or a failing pump etc). If that light comes on at any time, you're very close to destroying the engine so stop immediately. Assuming that light didn't come on in this case, then the engine had sufficient oil pressure and all should have been well.

Yeah there was no warning light on at all. Nothing.

So when EH are saying the oil at minimum level caused this I have to just keep arguing back its not the reason

[sparks_E46]

I hope for a good outcome for you OP but I find it odd that anyone would go more than a couple of weeks/500 miles and not check the oil level. Oil levels, tyre pressures etc should be checked a couple of times a month. There’s a stipulation with my company vehicle that it should be checked weekly. Makes sense as I do 500-800 miles a week!

[WoodL]

It was checked 2 weeks prior to this breakdown. I don't really keep a tally on the oil level checks but I just try to do it every few weeks but the level had never changed too much that I would have considered doing it more? Obviously this has now made me mega paranoid and will prob check the level daily !

[Dr Doofenshmirtz]

sparks_E46 said:

I hope for a good outcome for you OP but I find it odd that anyone would go more than a couple of weeks/500 miles and not check the oil level. Oil levels, tyre pressures etc should be checked a couple of times a month. There’s a stipulation with my company vehicle that it should be checked weekly. Makes sense as I do 500-800 miles a week!

I suspect most drivers have no idea how to, or have never checked their oil. Same for tyre pressures. When I'm out checking my family fleet people often walk past and say 'what's wrong now then' - I'm the only person who regularly pops the bonnet. I never see anyone else in our street doing it.

WoodL said:

So when EH are saying the oil at minimum level caused this I have to just keep arguing back its not the reason

Yes, absolutely.

[steve-5snwi]

motco said:

How can that be if the oil pressure is normal? The engine's component parts have no way to know whether there's a millimetre or a kilometre of oil above the pick-up. They are attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of an obviously uninformed owner. They must not be allowed to con him/her.

http://garagewire.co.uk/news/these-symptoms-could-mean-imminent-timing-chain-failure/

[Nickyboy]

Why on earth is a 4 year old car having to have the oil topped up every couple of months?

[motco]

steve-5snwi said:

motco said:

How can that be if the oil pressure is normal? The engine's component parts have no way to know whether there's a millimetre or a kilometre of oil above the pick-up. They are attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of an obviously uninformed owner. They must not be allowed to con him/her.

http://garagewire.co.uk/news/these-symptoms-could-mean-imminent-timing-chain-failure/

A stretched chain will not cause a sluggish engine nor lack of power or starting trouble. It may become noisy but even that is questionable while the tensioner maintains tension. That report is from a very biased source - a timing chain supplier! I would regard an engine builder/tuner's opinion way above a firm selling replacement timing chains. It's like Dreams recommending a new mattress every eight years! The chain's sole function is to maintain synchronicity within the valvegear and unless it skips a tooth or two, or if it breaks, it cannot have any measurable effect on power by slight lengthening. Whether oil degradation can cause stretching (wear, maybe) is very questionable too. Admittedly OHC chains are much longer than OHV types, but they would have to stretch an awful lot to alter valve timing to a significant degree.

[sparks_E46]

Nickyboy said:

Why on earth is a 4 year old car having to have the oil topped up every couple of months?

Common on a lot of modern cars, nothing wrong with them it’s just how they are.

[Nickyboy]

sparks_E46 said:

Common on a lot of modern cars, nothing wrong with them it’s just how they are.

Really? I thought that was half the fun of an old car

[rallycross]

For the idiots on here saying it’s the oil level that’s a nonsense, your engine takes between 5 and 6’litres of oil and when it’s showing min on the dip stick you only need to add one litre, this has zero effect on the engine and certainly does not affect the timing chain.

The Bmw 2.0 diesel unfortunately has a bad history of timing chain failure from 2008 onwards - improved after 2012 but newer models still failures. Bmw know this and will try their best to avoid paying out ( you need to do some more research and be prepared for a long argument to get any contribution).

[Colonel D]

unfortunate OP but it is a fairly common issue with them. You should insist on having a BMW garage looking at it, when they are checking it they can scan and will be able to see if there was an oil warning light on before it happened. That will stop any arguing you may be at fault, and hopefully get the warranty work carried out ASAP.
The bigger thing to look into would be the cause of the oil loss, and possible damage caused by it. Have you reported it them previously?

[38911]

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

To correct some responses...the warning on the dashboard is not a low oil LEVEL warning per se, it's a low oil PRESSURE warning.

And to correct your response, there are two oil lights on a MINI : an Amber OIL LEVEL LOW warning and a red OIL PRESSURE LOW light.

[motco]

rallycross said:

For the idiots on here saying it’s the oil level that’s a nonsense, your engine takes between 5 and 6’litres of oil and when it’s showing min on the dip stick you only need to add one litre, this has zero effect on the engine and certainly does not affect the timing chain.

That's exactly the point I was making. It's first class BS that the EH people are spouting.

[Commander2874]

Hope this works out for you and i would say it is looking in your favour so don't worry too much.
My dads x5 had its chain snapa month ago and cost £4600 to fix!

[Limpet]

As others have said, timing chains are a known weakness of the BMW 2.0 diesel (N47) engine, which is fitted to this car. BMW has even been summoned by Watchdog over it.

If your car has a full MINI main dealer service history, and you stick to your guns, you have a good chance of a result. BMW has been dealing with these out of warranty on a case-by-case basis, and the first criteria is normally a main dealer service history. Without this, you'd be sunk, so make sure your service history is completely by-the-book.

If this is the case, gather as much evidence as possible. A simple Google of "N47 timing chain failure" will give you a whole sorry list of woes. Gather a good few examples, noting as much detail as possible, and put together a polite, but firm email to MINI customer services. Clearly explain the situation, sticking to the facts. Explain that you are aware this is a known issue with the N47 engine (stick in a few bulletpoint examples from your web research). Say that, given the relatively low mileage on the car, and your conscientious approach to maintenance by keeping it serviced within the dealer network (ignore the low oil, it's irrelevant) you consider it unreasonable to be left in this position. Set out clearly that you expect a reasonable contribution to the repair costs given that you, as an owner, have maintained the car as instructed by MINI, and that the vehicle has not met reasonable expectations of the brand having suffered an engine failure at such low mileage.

You will have to fight and argue, and they will try to fob you off, but I suspect you will get some sort of contribution out of them.

We had an admittedly less serious issue with Mrs Limpet's Cooper S convertible which the dealer was trying to pass off as "normal". I spoke to MINI customer services and the car was booked in and sorted that week.

Edited by Limpet on Monday 29th October 08:48

[sparkythecat]

sparks_E46 said:

Nickyboy said:

Why on earth is a 4 year old car having to have the oil topped up every couple of months?

Common on a lot of modern cars, nothing wrong with them it’s just how they are.

What's happening to all this oil?
Why are modern cars designed to consume it?

One of the tests of the engine health of a second hand car used to be that it used no oil.

[motco]

sparkythecat said:

sparks_E46 said:

Nickyboy said:

Why on earth is a 4 year old car having to have the oil topped up every couple of months?

Common on a lot of modern cars, nothing wrong with them it’s just how they are.

What's happening to all this oil?
Why are modern cars designed to consume it?

One of the tests of the engine health of a second hand car used to be that it used no oil.

Older cars used 20W/50 oil - very viscous - but current ones use much thinner oil and it is almost inevitable that more is used. I've had older cars both with low and high mileages and they did use oil in more less amounts. The 'uses no oil' claim was usually very suspect. Interestingly though, modern diesels seem to consume far less oil than their petrol cousins. I can only assume that the lack of vacuum on over-run is a significant factor. A petrol engine on a closed throttle will pull almost 30" of vacuum in its induction tract. This will suck oil up past piston rings and down valve guides. Also modern engines have twice as many valves and guides as older configurations. I have had six diesels from a 2500cc Granada with a Peugeot 'tractor' engine, to a modern Ford Duratorq common rail and none has used oil between services - even with 230,000 miles on a Ford Endura in a Mk1 Mondeo. I also have a BMW M54 engine that uses oil and a tuned Ford Pinto that uses very little.

[200Plus Club]

The R8 v8 was known to burn a little oil and to no detriment. It's a fabulous engine, I think mine used just under 200ml in 1000m or so.

[WoodL]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

So EH have booked the car in with mini but the 1st space is 19th November. They are still trying to say we should pay the tow truck to mini but I complained and said it was EH who decided to tow it to a vaxhaul garage in the 2st place. The EH Branch where we bought the car are contacting us tmrw about arranging the tow to mini and hopefully they will pay.

They are saying they can only give us a courtesy car for 7 days from next Tuesday under the extended warranty ..our car wont have even hit the mini forecourt for them to look at it by the time we need to give the courtesy car back....do you think we can push for it longer ?

I have had a reply from citizens advice and they are contacting trading standards also.

I am going to email EH customer service and BMW tonight and tell them whats been going on as I haven't done that yetm

Yeah we have a full service history with BMW and hoping this goes in our favour.

The communication has been awful with EH and they keep telling us the wrong info. I went on to their customer service twitter page amd oh my word the complaints are awful..So so many!

I