Timing chain disaster

[anonymous-user]

motco said:

steve-5snwi said:

motco said:

How can that be if the oil pressure is normal? The engine's component parts have no way to know whether there's a millimetre or a kilometre of oil above the pick-up. They are attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of an obviously uninformed owner. They must not be allowed to con him/her.

http://garagewire.co.uk/news/these-symptoms-could-mean-imminent-timing-chain-failure/

A stretched chain will not cause a sluggish engine nor lack of power or starting trouble. It may become noisy but even that is questionable while the tensioner maintains tension. That report is from a very biased source - a timing chain supplier! I would regard an engine builder/tuner's opinion way above a firm selling replacement timing chains. It's like Dreams recommending a new mattress every eight years! The chain's sole function is to maintain synchronicity within the valvegear and unless it skips a tooth or two, or if it breaks, it cannot have any measurable effect on power by slight lengthening. Whether oil degradation can cause stretching (wear, maybe) is very questionable too. Admittedly OHC chains are much longer than OHV types, but they would have to stretch an awful lot to alter valve timing to a significant degree.

Would a stretched chain not alter the timing and thus the engine performance?

[rallycross]

JimSuperSix said:

Would a stretched chain not alter the timing and thus the engine performance?

No, not on these, they start to get noisy, rattle on start up, but as it gets worse the rattle gets worse, if you ignore this then one day it slips and the engine self destructs,

BMW really dropped the ball with their 2.0 diesel and petrol engines post 2008, went from being one of the best engine manufacturers to this shambles, and they wont even admit the problem officially so no recall in the UK, there was a dealer technical bulletin where you could take your N47 in for inspection and chain or tensioner replacement if deemed required by BMW, sadly this ended 18 months ago so you have to pay now.

BMW issued a dealer PUMA as per below on this engine (not sure about the MINI but basically this is the same 2.0 diesel engine just transverse fitting to the MINI.

New Puma out from Germany covers cars after 2011 now see case 3



Read Measure S Measure no. 43863106-06
Thread N47, N47S, N47T, friction noise in the engine,
Scrape the distribution chain Release Date (dd.mm.yyyy) 11/08/2012
Freed State organization, Vehicles affected car
E-series
E61 E60 E81 E82 E83
E87 E84 E88 E90 E91
E93 E92 F10 F11 F20
F30 F25 F31
Engine
N47S N47 N47T N47DK0
Body
Production time
(From / to) (dd.mm.yy)
/
Comment
Production time
Comments (if To measure) (dd.mm.yy)
Complaint
Scraping, polishing engine noise about 1500 1/min, which is inside perceptible.
Noise can be good in the gearbox or sump be perceived.
Cause
Sharpness of the sprockets or the chain is not running uniformly over
Slides.
Measure
Three cases are distinguished as follows:
Case 1:
For motors N47, N47DK0, N47S, period 01/03/2007 to 05/01/2009 production.
In the case of a customer complaint, the following components must be replaced:
- 11 21 7 803 479 crankshaft bearing shells exchange.
Note: Only crankshafts with manufacturing date from the fifth First 2009 only!
The production date is stamped on the crankshaft sprocket. (See
Plant, Page 1)
Meaning of the numbers:
- The first two digits represent the production line.
- The next six digits are the year (two digits), month, day.
- The last 5 digits identify the item number of the crankshaft.
Investment in the illustration on page 1 of the crankshaft is therefore October 21, 2009
have.
- 11 41 7 797 896 for the drive chain of the oil pump.
- 11 31 8 506 652 below the chain.
- 13 52 7 797 906 for driving gearwheel high pressure pump.
- 11 27 7 800 523 Gear (intermediate balance shafts).
- 11 27 7 802 575 gear (drive shaft balance).
- 11 27 7 802 576 gear (drive shaft balance).
- 11 31 8 510 014 top chain.
- 11 31 7 797 899 for guide rail above distribution chain.
- 13 52 8 572 499 for the guide rail below the chain.
- 13 52 8 572 500 to the rail voltage below the chain.
Note: right chain tension below the guide rails damped
use! (See
Attachment page 2)
For the supply chain to just slide without using nerves! (See
Box 3)
Note: The intermediate balance shafts according to exactly repair instructions
! Set
If the intermediate gear and balancer shafts down enough, the
Motor despite
Crankshaft produce new sounds, etc!
See Repair Manual November 21 500 "replace crankshaft."
Note: For vehicles already in a previous repair
Crankshaft
was renewed:
These vehicles treated as described in the "Case 2".
Case 2:
For motors N47, N47DK0, N47S, N47T production period of 05.01.2009 to 01.03.2011
In case of customer complaint, replace the following components:
- 11 31 8 506 652 below the chain.
- 13 52 7 797 906 for driving gearwheel high pressure pump.
- 11 31 8 510 014 top chain.
- 11 31 7 797 899 for guide rail above distribution chain.
- 13 52 8 572 499 for the guide rail below the chain.
- 13 52 8 572 500 to the rail voltage below the chain.
Note: The screw connection for intermediate balance shafts should not
more dissolved
be!
Note: right chain tension below the guide rails damped
use! (See Attachment page 2)
For the supply chain to just slide without using nerves! (See Box 3)
Note: For vehicles in which a repair already installed rails without stiffening ribs and replaced both timing chains were: These vehicles
how to treat "Case 3" described.
Case 3:
For the period N47T engine production and repair of committed 01.03.2011
Guide rails without reinforcing ribs. In case of customer complaint, replace the following components
- 11 31 8 506 652 below the chain.
- 13 52 7 797 906 for driving gearwheel high pressure pump.
- 11 31 8 510 014 top chain.
- 13 52 8 572 499 for the guide rail below the chain.
- 13 52 8 572 500 to the rail voltage below the chain.
Note: The reference design, repair was shown on page 4 of the plant.
Complaint: Error: error conditions: 11/21 Crankshaft
Sprocket Unit Control Noise
11/21 Crankshaft Sprocket Wear Unit Control
Motor 11 the speed of sound 1000-2000
U / min
Engine
11 Engine Noise
11/00 Engine:
Enforceability NIO Permanently
11/31 Supply Chain
Crankshaft Damage
11/31
Timing Chain
Camshaft
Damage
11/31
Unit Control
Slide
Report this part
Cause
Error: error:
11/31 distribution chain
Crankshaft
Noise
Activity
Department
Lead
Error Code
TC action:
Progman / DIS / ISTA / ISTA / P
System state version
Evaluation of operation
Copyright © 2002-2012 BMW AG, Munich (Germany). All rights reserved.

[steve-5snwi]

First sign is it usually rattles, the chain wears and stretches, next fault codes are usually camshaft position sensor as the timing goes out. Tensioners are usually hydraulically operated which is why sometimes the chain can fail or jump. There was a spate of the VAG tsi tensioners losing oil and chucking the chain off or just destroying itself after a service. In the case of Mazdas they seem to put DPF warning lights on, they also have issues with the oil pick up pipe.

OP you are better off moving it to a Mini specialist, if 9k is the claim limit you will find mini will only put a new engine in it and by the time you factor in £100 + for the labour you will end up contributing quite a lot in labour.

[WoodL]

Would EH not have to cover a large percentage of the repair costs under the guarantee I took out for the mechanical break down cover ?

What do you mean by saying ' if 9k is the claim value ' ? Sorry my head is spinning from all of this. I bought a mini with full service history and took out the extended warranty thinking I wowouldn't ave to worry about all this and look where I am. I live in a ritual area and coukd potentially be left with my balance of my 6k loan and no car and £80 per week train fares for me and my husband to get to work if EH/mini don't agree to pay out or at very least meet us half way.
EH have booked it into Mini on 19th Nov for them to look as they advised us it had to go to mini? We didn't have an option in that. So not sure what you mean by take it to a mini specialist? EH have still never told us what damage has been done to the engine in any detail other than going on and on about the oil level and the timming chain has came off.

[steve-5snwi]

You need to look at your warranty for the labour rates, EH warranty pays out at a certain rate, the customer we had EH would only pay out £35 per hour plus VAT, if yours is the same and Mini want £100 per hour (our dealer is £155 per hour) then you will have to pay £58 per hour yourself, if its a 10 hour job you will need to pay £580 towards the labour costs.

You need to look into the warranty T&C's to see what is covered and not assume it will cover it all. If you paid 9k for the Mini and EH will only pay out upto the cars value then the claim limit is 9k, given Mini will probably want 6k plus VAT for an engine then you are looking at £7200 before anything is removed.

[WoodL]

So an update.

Found a Mini specialist garage and they have space to look at it next week. They said around £2500 plus labour to fix at a guess as seen one before....So not going to Mini now.

EH authorised us to use the garage for the guarantee repair and insurance towing the car to them today.

So what if they can't find the cause of the timming chain coming off? Is that possible? The oil level was at minimum and no warning lights so I just don't believe it's the cause but what else could it be?

What other things would not be classed as wear and tear to cause thid to happen to a 4 year old car?

[steve-5snwi]

Sounds a bit more positive then, timing chain failure will never be classed as wear and tear however it may not cover consequential damage and failure of a part won't be covered if its down to customer neglect. Have you found out exactly what EH will cover in terms of labour ?

[WoodL]

Not got there yet. It's hard enough to get them on the phone.They never made it clear we could take the car anywhere else other than mini until we asked So how can they say it's customer neglect if oil was topped up regular and was at min level as 1st mechanci stated. Its EH who are sayibgs its slightlt below. Even a slightly low level from the min surely would'nt cause the timming chain to break? ? No?

[AbzGuyGTI]

EH are one of the worst people to deal with if you have bought a car from them and something goes wrong....they will always push back saying not their fault/not covered under warranty etc..!

I have only bought 1 car from them in the past and never ever again will i do so!

Stick to your guns OP and challenge everything they say.....also don't be surprised if they have drained the remaining oil out the tank since the car has been in their possession...complete shower of lying so and so's are EH (sorry rant over)!!

[WoodL]

I think they have drained the oil level as 2st mechanic disputing level with them...I hate them so much .

[MK1RS Bruce]

Just a casual observation but there is no way the oil level being at the minimum or even slightly below it should cause the timing chain to fail.

At the minimum is still on the allowable scale and I would be very surprised if mini designed the car such that it self destructs as soon as the oil drops below the minimum on the dip stick. This is clearly EH trying to get off the hook!

Stick to your guns on this one, I have had a nasty experience buying a car with a supposed Full Service History in the past from them so they are are a bunch of crooks!

Another tact if you haven't already done it and the EH garage is a mini garage is to speak to BMW/Mini and highlight how bad the customer service has been!

[SlimJim16v]

WoodL said:

2st mechanic

That's a very small mechanic.

[WoodL]

Haha I meant 'the 1st mechanic' ..dam auto correct

It was a EH Vauxhall garage it was at. It has now been towed to a mini specialist garage by my insuramce (luckily they didnt charge us to tow it there as was 25 miles away)

What would the mini specialist mechanic find if wasn't the oil...what would cause this? EH have already said my service was due 3 weeks ago...I couldn't get booked in - and thats my fault ? So there using anything to blame it on us.

[WoodL]

MK1RS Bruce said:

Just a casual observation but there is no way the oil level being at the minimum or even slightly below it should cause the timing chain to fail.

At the minimum is still on the allowable scale and I would be very surprised if mini designed the car such that it self destructs as soon as the oil drops below the minimum on the dip stick. This is clearly EH trying to get off the hook!

Stick to your guns on this one, I have had a nasty experience buying a car with a supposed Full Service History in the past from them so they are are a bunch of crooks!

Another tact if you haven't already done it and the EH garage is a mini garage is to speak to BMW/Mini and highlight how bad the customer service has been!

What else would cause this to happen?

Can a low oil level actually cause this to happen ..how low would it have to be?

[motco]

OP you have been told on numerous occasions that the oil level is irrelevant and that this engine has a track record of doing exactly this. There's nothing you can have done to cause this - it is a weakness of that engine according to other members who have access to data regarding the engine type.

[MK1RS Bruce]

WoodL said:

MK1RS Bruce said:

Just a casual observation but there is no way the oil level being at the minimum or even slightly below it should cause the timing chain to fail.

At the minimum is still on the allowable scale and I would be very surprised if mini designed the car such that it self destructs as soon as the oil drops below the minimum on the dip stick. This is clearly EH trying to get off the hook!

Stick to your guns on this one, I have had a nasty experience buying a car with a supposed Full Service History in the past from them so they are are a bunch of crooks!

Another tact if you haven't already done it and the EH garage is a mini garage is to speak to BMW/Mini and highlight how bad the customer service has been!

What else would cause this to happen?

Can a low oil level actually cause this to happen ..how low would it have to be?

Sounds like it is an inherent weakness in the chain or a design flaw in the system.

I don't know how the specific system operates but my assumption would be that the bottom of the chain passes through the oil in the sump which lubricates it as it passes round. if that chain was receiving no lubrication then it will wear out faster than normal but it wouldn't cause an instantaneous failure. When the engine is eventually stripped down as for pictures of the ends of the chain where the failure occurred. Tat will likely conclude whether the chain failed due to wear or inherent material or design flaws.

[WoodL]

Thanks everyone you have been so helpful. I will come back and let you know the outcome whatever happens !
L x

[WinstonWolf]

WoodL said:

MK1RS Bruce said:

Just a casual observation but there is no way the oil level being at the minimum or even slightly below it should cause the timing chain to fail.

At the minimum is still on the allowable scale and I would be very surprised if mini designed the car such that it self destructs as soon as the oil drops below the minimum on the dip stick. This is clearly EH trying to get off the hook!

Stick to your guns on this one, I have had a nasty experience buying a car with a supposed Full Service History in the past from them so they are are a bunch of crooks!

Another tact if you haven't already done it and the EH garage is a mini garage is to speak to BMW/Mini and highlight how bad the customer service has been!

What else would cause this to happen?

Can a low oil level actually cause this to happen ..how low would it have to be?

Low enough to expose the pickup in the sump. The minimum will still keep the pickup in the oil and allow for cornering etc. with a margin built in.

[steve-5snwi]

The dipsticks in the Mini are not the best, well certainly when it comes to the petrol models.

With regards to the servicing, manufacturers usually state 1000 miles or 1 month from when the light comes on. I', assuming yours is set to CBS (condition based)

[WoodL]

The light never came on though . Oh well we will see what happens next week