4wd or winter tyres, which is better?
Discussion
The answer to the original question is neatly demonstrated here, with vids. In short, winter tyres are superior.
https://jalopnik.com/heres-proof-that-computers-an...
This comparison is on ice between all-seasons and winters. The difference between summers and winters will obviously be massively more.
https://jalopnik.com/heres-proof-that-computers-an...
This comparison is on ice between all-seasons and winters. The difference between summers and winters will obviously be massively more.
300bhp/ton said:
Finlandia said:
I live up in the Nordic region and have driven all sorts of 2wd and 4wd cars with or without winter tyres, winter tyres are a must on snow and ice, nothing beats them for stopping power and steering response, simple as that.
This is backed up by pretty much every tyre manufacturer, car manufacturer, car journalist and everyone who has tried winter tyres in winter conditions, not to mention the legislation in many countries where snow is an everyday thing during the year.
Have I ever climed any different? Stop arguing something that isn't in debate. This is backed up by pretty much every tyre manufacturer, car manufacturer, car journalist and everyone who has tried winter tyres in winter conditions, not to mention the legislation in many countries where snow is an everyday thing during the year.
Isn't that what we are debating?
InitialDave said:
That way you never get to have the best tyre in winter or summer, top stuff!
Do you also have slicks for when it’s dry and wets for when it rains or do you make do with what you have and still stay on the road? It’s the same with all seasons and proper 4wd. It’s an amazing combination that means you can drive in all seasons!Onehp said:
...on snow?
Winter tyres of course.
If anybody claims differently, or just thinks they are somehow 'safe' with their 4wd on summers, let them watch this straightforward comparison:
Tyrereviews 2wd winter vs 4wd summer
On wet roads, they are roughly the same, on dry cold roads, the summers may be a bit better. And on acceleration 4wd is always better in the dry/wet, but only relevant if you need to win dragraces.... But once the white stuff comes falling down summers don't have a chance. At all.
PS: for those in the nordic countries: put descent nordic winter tyres on your 4wd cars instead of all seasons 21" tyres whatever. The difference is just as large as above especially on ice...
Regards,
Onehp from Sweden
PSS in summer, Icecontact 2 studded (190 studs/tyre) in winter.
That should pretty much put to bed the issue of '4WD or Winter Tyres for snow and ice'. Winter tyres are clearly superior - no amount of 4wd can make up for the deficiencies of regular tyres on those extreme surfaces and 4WD won't help at all if you have to hit the brakes hard or make a sudden maneouvre.Winter tyres of course.
If anybody claims differently, or just thinks they are somehow 'safe' with their 4wd on summers, let them watch this straightforward comparison:
Tyrereviews 2wd winter vs 4wd summer
On wet roads, they are roughly the same, on dry cold roads, the summers may be a bit better. And on acceleration 4wd is always better in the dry/wet, but only relevant if you need to win dragraces.... But once the white stuff comes falling down summers don't have a chance. At all.
PS: for those in the nordic countries: put descent nordic winter tyres on your 4wd cars instead of all seasons 21" tyres whatever. The difference is just as large as above especially on ice...
Regards,
Onehp from Sweden
PSS in summer, Icecontact 2 studded (190 studs/tyre) in winter.
However, the amount of days you'll see road conditions like that in a UK winter are typically measured in single digits for most of the British Isles. Highlands and moors excepted of course.
wormus said:
InitialDave said:
That way you never get to have the best tyre in winter or summer, top stuff!
Do you also have slicks for when it’s dry and wets for when it rains or do you make do with what you have and still stay on the road? It’s the same with all seasons and proper 4wd. It’s an amazing combination that means you can drive in all seasons!wormus said:
Do you also have slicks for when it’s dry and wets for when it rains or do you make do with what you have and still stay on the road? It’s the same with all seasons and proper 4wd. It’s an amazing combination that means you can drive in all seasons!
Not allowed slicks, am I? And it's a little silly to compare changing tyres for daily variations in weather conditions to changing them for a period of weeks/months.And all seasons on 4wd are ok, but, I'd still rather have winters for winter.
jagnet said:
You want video evidence of a 2wd car on winter tyres managing to brake to a standstill in snow, without drama, from 15mph?
How about this: https://youtu.be/hy3FUOHP434 downhill on a ski slope. Tiny bit of abs at one point just before coming to a stop but forgiveable as it's a frelling ski slope! A little tougher than conditions in your video but no need for diff locks, engine braking on the rear axle etc etc.
Plenty of other videos of 2wd cars managing to do the same on YouTube.
What other evidence would you like? That anyone living in Sweden, Norway, Germany, Austria, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia etc etc manage it every day in winter when it snows? They're not heading out in their defenders, engaging diff locks and filming themselves trundling about at 15mph, they're just getting in their cars and driving to work like it's any another day.
I asked for your proof and experience. Not your YouTube searching skills of other people's experiences. How about this: https://youtu.be/hy3FUOHP434 downhill on a ski slope. Tiny bit of abs at one point just before coming to a stop but forgiveable as it's a frelling ski slope! A little tougher than conditions in your video but no need for diff locks, engine braking on the rear axle etc etc.
Plenty of other videos of 2wd cars managing to do the same on YouTube.
What other evidence would you like? That anyone living in Sweden, Norway, Germany, Austria, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia etc etc manage it every day in winter when it snows? They're not heading out in their defenders, engaging diff locks and filming themselves trundling about at 15mph, they're just getting in their cars and driving to work like it's any another day.
Have you driven on M&S MTs or ATs in such conditions? Have you driven different types of 4wd in such conditions? Have you used winter tyres in such conditions? And have you used 4wd on winter tyres?
Scootersp said:
Defender type 4wd's usually have at least mud type tyres, so may not have snipes at such but do give better grip in snow than a regular type of tyre most 4wd's (volvo's, BMW's Audi's etc etc)
For me pecking order is
4wd and winter tyres (different diff's and 4wd types will give some capability range within this group)
2wd with Winter tyres
4wd with non winter tyres
2wd (fwd) with non winter tyres
2wd (rwd) with non winter tyres
Exactly where a Defender etc with those big tread tyres you can drive through a muddy field with sits I don't know but probably between top and second spot?
Except that is misses out the key factor...For me pecking order is
4wd and winter tyres (different diff's and 4wd types will give some capability range within this group)
2wd with Winter tyres
4wd with non winter tyres
2wd (fwd) with non winter tyres
2wd (rwd) with non winter tyres
Exactly where a Defender etc with those big tread tyres you can drive through a muddy field with sits I don't know but probably between top and second spot?
everyone discusses: winter / summer tyres & FWD / RWD / AWD
but the real difference is in the driver...
In any driving situation - avoidance of an issue is far better than being able to deal with it - the better driver doesn't enter the corner fast enough to skid - far better than the driver who skids but catches it...
so with snow - the better driver simply avoids the snow - or if they have no choice, then they learn how to drive in it... I spent a day in the snow earlier this year, clearing roads near me - the vast majority of the issues were driver error (stupidity!):
- someone in a little mercedes A class 4-matic
"it is 4 wheel drive so I should be able to get through"
"did you not notice the 4 foot bank of snow?!"
"but it is a 4x4 like a land rover"
"umm, nope... okay, if you reverse... ahhh you don't know where reverse is... okay!"
- someone in a standard FWD car
"but the satnav said go this way"
" do you use your eyes as well... ahh no..."
- someone in a van
"but I have a shovel..."
"better get shovelling then..."
- someone in a rather big low-loader
" the A40 was blocked with cars, so I thought that if I just nipped across country..."
"well that wasn't very clever was it - and now you are blocking three different roads one town and 3 villages..."
and so it went on... 99% of the issues were the driver, not the snow / the car / the tyres...
My RR is a decrepit 24 year old car on just road legal tyres - they are S&M tyres which gives a better grip pattern - but as you may see in another photo, once the snow is solid in them, they are basically like bald tyres... yet I was able to tow anything out - including the low loader...
I have never bothered with winter tyres - it is really not worth it in the mild climate of southern england - we are in mid November now, and the M5 has absolutely no issues with grip - I will drive it as I did last year, all year around without issue... if we get snow, I will drive the RR and if I am desparate I will either not drive, or I could get the tractor out (very cold on a 50s Fergie though!)
The decisions you make are critical to how successful you are - driver not kit!
Another couple of gratuitous photos:
Disco going forward as I reverse - couldn't be bothered to turn around, and it is a hoot driving backwards at speed!
Look at the grip on the tyres - ah yes, snow on snow (someone should write a song about that!)
and if you really want to handle the snow - you need one of these... it demolishes the snow
InitialDave said:
Not allowed slicks, am I? And it's a little silly to compare changing tyres for daily variations in weather conditions to changing them for a period of weeks/months.
And all seasons on 4wd are ok, but, I'd still rather have winters for winter.
Personally can’t be arsed to change them even once per year, unless they’ve worn out of course, but each to their own. If you prefer to use winters that’s also fine.And all seasons on 4wd are ok, but, I'd still rather have winters for winter.
300bhp/ton said:
I asked for your proof and experience. Not your YouTube searching skills of other people's experiences.
Have you driven on M&S MTs or ATs in such conditions? Have you driven different types of 4wd in such conditions? Have you used winter tyres in such conditions? And have you used 4wd on winter tyres?
Yes.Have you driven on M&S MTs or ATs in such conditions? Have you driven different types of 4wd in such conditions? Have you used winter tyres in such conditions? And have you used 4wd on winter tyres?
akirk said:
My RR is a decrepit 24 year old car on just road legal tyres - they are S&M tyres which gives a better grip pattern - but as you may see in another photo, once the snow is solid in them, they are basically like bald tyres...
and if you really want to handle the snow - you need one of these... it demolishes the snow
That is actually how winter tyres work on snow, they are meant to fill the thread with snow because nothing grips onto snow like snow (imagine making a snowman).and if you really want to handle the snow - you need one of these... it demolishes the snow
On ice again, the sipes are designed to grip onto the small irregularities of the ice surface.
If you really, really want to handle the snow, and have fun while doing so, this is the answer
akirk said:
and so it went on... 99% of the issues were the driver, not the snow / the car / the tyres...
My RR is a decrepit 24 year old car on just road legal tyres - they are S&M tyres which gives a better grip pattern - but as you may see in another photo, once the snow is solid in them, they are basically like bald tyres... yet I was able to tow anything out - including the low loader...
Actually, one of the design features of Winter Tyres is to get snow trapped in the sipes as snow to snow grips quite well (relatively speaking) so that snow in your M&S tyres likely gave you a decent amount of grip, especially over four driven wheels. Pure driver skill will not overcomenear-zero mechanical grip, no matter how much you think it does.My RR is a decrepit 24 year old car on just road legal tyres - they are S&M tyres which gives a better grip pattern - but as you may see in another photo, once the snow is solid in them, they are basically like bald tyres... yet I was able to tow anything out - including the low loader...
tting myself going down hill in the RR.InitialDave said:
Not allowed slicks, am I? And it's a little silly to compare changing tyres for daily variations in weather conditions to changing them for a period of weeks/months.
And all seasons on 4wd are ok, but, I'd still rather have winters for winter.
Depends on the Winter conditions where you drive. I've used Winter tyres for the last 11 years in the UK (currently Dunlop Wintersport 5 which will be going back on in the next couple of weeks) but my next set on the Winter wheels will likely be Michelin Crossclimate + as they seem much more suited to the sorts of conditions I drive in - mostly 'cold + dry' or 'cold + wet' and only occasionally snowy/icy, where the Crossclimate still show a big advantage over regular tyres (just not as much as a full Winter tyre).And all seasons on 4wd are ok, but, I'd still rather have winters for winter.
In my experience Winter tyres are amazing in the snow but once temps get close to double figures they get rapidly worse than regular rubber and their dry grip is inferior unless it is seriously cold (sub zero). An 'all-season' which sacrifices a small bit of snow/ice performance for better wet and dry grip and hangs on much better an >5C seems preferable to me, given my local climate.
Obviously I'll put on regular tyres again once Spring has sprung. I wouldn't actually want to drive them in 'all seasons' ironically enough.
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