4wd or winter tyres, which is better?

[TheJimi]

Is it just me of has 300 *blatantly* started this thread with absolutely no intention of discussing anything, rather he's simply given himself a soapbox?

[InitialDave]

Lucas Ayde said:

Depends on the Winter conditions where you drive. I've used Winter tyres for the last 11 years in the UK (currently Dunlop Wintersport 5 which will be going back on in the next couple of weeks) but my next set on the Winter wheels will likely be Michelin Crossclimate + as they seem much more suited to the sorts of conditions I drive in - mostly 'cold + dry' or 'cold + wet' and only occasionally snowy/icy, where the Crossclimate still show a big advantage over regular tyres (just not as much as a full Winter tyre).

In my experience Winter tyres are amazing in the snow but once temps get close to double figures they get rapidly worse than regular rubber and their dry grip is inferior unless it is seriously cold (sub zero). An 'all-season' which sacrifices a small bit of snow/ice performance for better wet and dry grip and hangs on much better an >5C seems preferable to me, given my local climate.

Obviously I'll put on regular tyres again once Spring has sprung. I wouldn't actually want to drive them in 'all seasons' ironically enough.

Yes, I saw Tyre Reviews' video on those, was quite impressed, but I'd treat them in a similar fashion, a "British winter tyre" if you like.

[jagnet]

300bhp/ton said:

Have you driven on M&S MTs or ATs in such conditions? Have you driven different types of 4wd in such conditions? Have you used winter tyres in such conditions? And have you used 4wd on winter tyres?

300bhp/ton said:

I asked for your proof and experience. Not your YouTube searching skills of other people's experiences.

What relevance is that? Basic physics doesn't really differ from driver to driver.

[akirk]

Finlandia said:

That is actually how winter tyres work on snow, they are meant to fill the thread with snow because nothing grips onto snow like snow (imagine making a snowman).
On ice again, the sipes are designed to grip onto the small irregularities of the ice surface.


If you really, really want to handle the snow, and have fun while doing so, this is the answer

M&S tyres have a tread pattern designed to disperse mud & snow... I am not sure that a tyre can be designed to retain snow, yet disperse mud?
Winter tyres are primarily a different rubber compound which stay softer and more pliant at lower temperatures...
Some tyres have both tread and rubber compound...
The classic range rover was designed with tall narrow tyres so that it cut through snow and mud

Have to say though that your option would be the most fun (albeit not ideal for towing lorries out!)

[Lucas Ayde]

akirk said:

M&S tyres have a tread pattern designed to disperse mud & snow... I am not sure that a tyre can be designed to retain snow, yet disperse mud?

Sipes

[akirk]

Lucas Ayde said:

akirk said:

M&S tyres have a tread pattern designed to disperse mud & snow... I am not sure that a tyre can be designed to retain snow, yet disperse mud?

Sipes

sure, but the tread pattern on snow tyres is usually a zig zag designed to open up more, to a) expose more rubber of the tyre to snow to grip better, and b) to release mud / snow which was in the tread...

[Finlandia]

akirk said:

M&S tyres have a tread pattern designed to disperse mud & snow... I am not sure that a tyre can be designed to retain snow, yet disperse mud?
Winter tyres are primarily a different rubber compound which stay softer and more pliant at lower temperatures...
Some tyres have both tread and rubber compound...
The classic range rover was designed with tall narrow tyres so that it cut through snow and mud

Have to say though that your option would be the most fun (albeit not ideal for towing lorries out!)

You are right in that the rubber compound used in winter tyres is softer than the one used in summer tyres, which helps to grip on ice and packed snow. On deeper powder snow you can actually get nearly the same level of grip from a summer tyre like Vredestein Sessanta, but as soon as the snow gets packed or icy, you're stuffed.

At low speed, when starting or stopping, the snow fills up between the blocks and sipes, and offers better grip, at higher speed, the snow clears thanks to the movement of the sipes, then the tread pattern and blocks are designed to offer good lateral grip.

Then you have the studded tyres, but that's a completely different story



You don't have to tow any lorries out of your way with that, you can make your own way

[akirk]

Finlandia said:

akirk said:

M&S tyres have a tread pattern designed to disperse mud & snow... I am not sure that a tyre can be designed to retain snow, yet disperse mud?
Winter tyres are primarily a different rubber compound which stay softer and more pliant at lower temperatures...
Some tyres have both tread and rubber compound...
The classic range rover was designed with tall narrow tyres so that it cut through snow and mud

Have to say though that your option would be the most fun (albeit not ideal for towing lorries out!)

You are right in that the rubber compound used in winter tyres is softer than the one used in summer tyres, which helps to grip on ice and packed snow. On deeper powder snow you can actually get nearly the same level of grip from a summer tyre like Vredestein Sessanta, but as soon as the snow gets packed or icy, you're stuffed.

At low speed, when starting or stopping, the snow fills up between the blocks and sipes, and offers better grip, at higher speed, the snow clears thanks to the movement of the sipes, then the tread pattern and blocks are designed to offer good lateral grip.

Then you have the studded tyres, but that's a completely different story



You don't have to tow any lorries out of your way with that, you can make your own way

makes sense thank you...

[thiscocks]

Onehp said:

Engine braking is also totally irrelevant for safe braking, unless you are going 90 degrees sideways and coming off the trottle at that point... At which point most people will disagree that your driving style is anywhere near 'safe'...

Engine braking is not irrelevant at all. For safe braking in slippery conditions you will apply the brakes lightly at first until the tyres find grip. Having engine braking on both axles will reduce the time for this. It also means for just slowing down you will have less reliance on the brakes so in turn have less chance of locking up.

[matthias73]

skyrover said:

cayman-black said:

I have a Range Rover with all seasons on it and an Abarth with winters fitted, i use the Abarth when the conditions are really bad.

Ground clearance not an issue?

What you need is a vehicle that is so low, it turns into it's own snowplow. Momentum sir, momentum!

[Tom_Spotley_When]

What does this video, and accompanying article mean, 300?

https://jalopnik.com/heres-proof-that-computers-an...

I suppose without knowing the intricate details of the Toyota RAV4's 4 wheel drive system and braking capabilities, it's tough to make any accurate assumptions about how it might compare to a Series 3 Land Rover....

[Digga]

Dirt bike with rear track and front ski. FTW



Even a snowmobile can't compete with that sort of fun.

[DonkeyApple]

DoubleD said:

An all season isnt as good as a summer tyre in the summer or a winter tyre in the winter. But you dont have to bother with having 2 sets of tyres. Its all a compromise, it just depends where you are willing to compromise.

The more logical compromise that I tend to make is that I’d rather trade performance when the weather is good and bad driving habits are being masked for better performance when the conditions are bad and bad habits are biting people.

It’s also much easier to compensate for a reduced stopping speed or cornering speed etc in summer than winter.

[Digga]

DonkeyApple said:

DoubleD said:

An all season isnt as good as a summer tyre in the summer or a winter tyre in the winter. But you dont have to bother with having 2 sets of tyres. Its all a compromise, it just depends where you are willing to compromise.

The more logical compromise that I tend to make is that I’d rather trade performance when the weather is good and bad driving habits are being masked for better performance when the conditions are bad and bad habits are biting people.

It’s also much easier to compensate for a reduced stopping speed or cornering speed etc in summer than winter.

^This 100%.

Not sure with climate change how the trend will alter, but the UK tends to get a fair share of rain and even cooler days, throughout the year. Since, even when it's dry, I'm not minded to be driving my daily anywhere near the limits of grip, I'd rather have the enhanced all weather and temperature tyre capability.

[akirk]

DonkeyApple said:

DoubleD said:

An all season isnt as good as a summer tyre in the summer or a winter tyre in the winter. But you dont have to bother with having 2 sets of tyres. Its all a compromise, it just depends where you are willing to compromise.

The more logical compromise that I tend to make is that I’d rather trade performance when the weather is good and bad driving habits are being masked for better performance when the conditions are bad and bad habits are biting people.

It’s also much easier to compensate for a reduced stopping speed or cornering speed etc in summer than winter.

Fair points - but the reality where I live in the South Cotswolds is that we have so few days a year when the temperature is low enough to make it an issue, that I would prefer to compensate (very slightly) on those few days, than compensate across a wider range of days...

It will be different for those who live higher up...

[RicksAlfas]

akirk said:

It will be different for those who live higher up...

Indeed. I got my Classic stuck last winter by driving like a tit and ran out of ground clearance.
Beached it good and proper.

[akirk]

RicksAlfas said:

akirk said:

It will be different for those who live higher up...

Indeed. I got my Classic stuck last winter by driving like a tit and ran out of ground clearance.
Beached it good and proper.

that is always fun!

[C70R]

300bhp/ton said:

Ok, bit of a click-bait title.

Well, colour me surprised.

[Onehp]

300bhp/ton said:

So you know this pick up had a shot/seized rear brake then? Or are you maybe making stuff up? You may also want to have a read up on how ABS works.

Your last paragraph

Brake balance should not affect how well the rear abs works in very slippery conditions (not needing the assistance of additional braking of the fronts through a rigid front-rear drive connection), unless the abs OR the brakes are very bad. I guess the OR was missing before. So no.

[DoubleD]

DonkeyApple said:

DoubleD said:

An all season isnt as good as a summer tyre in the summer or a winter tyre in the winter. But you dont have to bother with having 2 sets of tyres. Its all a compromise, it just depends where you are willing to compromise.

The more logical compromise that I tend to make is that I’d rather trade performance when the weather is good and bad driving habits are being masked for better performance when the conditions are bad and bad habits are biting people.

It’s also much easier to compensate for a reduced stopping speed or cornering speed etc in summer than winter.

I like driving and I especially like driving in the summer. Being on a tyre that isnt as good as it could be woukd be a compromise too far for me.