4wd or winter tyres, which is better?
Discussion
RicksAlfas said:
jon- said:
It's basically a test of "should I buy this saloon in the AWD version or 2wd version". That's what people want to see to help them make a car buying choice.
Isn't that what you were doing in the X1 test where you forgot your jumper?It'll need to be a lot colder than -10c before I wear a jumper.
jon- said:
We're not trying to test that, remember this is a test for the general population, not offroad geeks.
It's basically a test of "should I buy this saloon in the AWD version or 2wd version". That's what people want to see to help them make a car buying choice.
Obejectively it is better for most users and is a question about budget. People hate to get stuck just once, and 0-60 times give bragging rights and some fun. But a stupid investment if done instead of descent tyres. It's basically a test of "should I buy this saloon in the AWD version or 2wd version". That's what people want to see to help them make a car buying choice.
BMW do sell a lot of xdrive in Sweden. That is because the rwd offerings still are a bit sketchy in slippery conditions for normal peeps. BMW selling their rwd cars with runflat european winter tyres in Sweden really boosted xdrive sales, they were pretty awful in winter...
But I also believe awd cars get people in more trouble, because they don't get the same warnings when grip is lower than expected under acceleration, and end up driving faster when braking and/or cornering grip is compromised. Making bigger drive offs and accidents.
And for actually getting by traction wise, fwd with proper tyres is sufficient for the large majority.
All this can be illustrated in a entertaining vid...
mikey k said:
Yep I've had cars with both on
My point was you cannot force either system in to locked distrbution ie 100% FWD, 100% RWD or 50/50 split so doing an objective controlled test with those systems isn't going to be possible as you cannot control the variables well enough.
Ok misunderstood. My point was you cannot force either system in to locked distrbution ie 100% FWD, 100% RWD or 50/50 split so doing an objective controlled test with those systems isn't going to be possible as you cannot control the variables well enough.
Actually, cars with clutch packs instead of diffs, such as Haldex and xdrive, you might be able to pull a fuse and at least get to choose between full lock front rear ('50/50') in slippery conditions, and without fuse 100% FWD or RWD depending on the intrinsic layout. If the cars remain otherwise functional I don't know...
As this seems to be a discussion of which AWD system is best for getting going in extremely low traction conditions, then that is a simple answer. It’s any system that either doesn’t have a center diff (Haldex), or is able to 100% lock it’s center diff. Even better if it’s a vehicle with some sort of lockable/active axle diffs, however that’s unusual outside of sporty models or proper off roaders like a G-class.
No AWD system on summers can get anywhere close to a 2wd on winter tyres.
However extreme low traction is actually a very unusual set of circumstances, especially in most of the U.K. AWD also has many advantages at higher speeds on surfaces with middling traction levels (e.g wet/damp winter roads), and it’s this envelope that is surely much more relevant. Granted, you have to be pushing the vehicle performance envelope to get any advantage out of the AWD system, but that’s always been the case. In the case of conclusive evidence to support this, look at any racing class where Audi has fielded a quattro drive car. They’ve cleaned up every time and then been outlawed. Can’t argue with that.
And in rallying, there’s a reason why the fastest cars (by a large margin) are the AWD ones.
AWD is better than 2wd in all but the narrowest of performance envelopes (driving hard on a smooth dry road)
As an aside, my TVR on proper winter tyres is remarkably capable. Obviously it’s clearance limited, but with light weight, and a proper limited slip diff, etc. it can go pretty much anywhere.
It’s not as good in the snow as my quattro A8 (on winters) though, but better than when it’s on it’s summers.
No AWD system on summers can get anywhere close to a 2wd on winter tyres.
However extreme low traction is actually a very unusual set of circumstances, especially in most of the U.K. AWD also has many advantages at higher speeds on surfaces with middling traction levels (e.g wet/damp winter roads), and it’s this envelope that is surely much more relevant. Granted, you have to be pushing the vehicle performance envelope to get any advantage out of the AWD system, but that’s always been the case. In the case of conclusive evidence to support this, look at any racing class where Audi has fielded a quattro drive car. They’ve cleaned up every time and then been outlawed. Can’t argue with that.
And in rallying, there’s a reason why the fastest cars (by a large margin) are the AWD ones.
AWD is better than 2wd in all but the narrowest of performance envelopes (driving hard on a smooth dry road)
As an aside, my TVR on proper winter tyres is remarkably capable. Obviously it’s clearance limited, but with light weight, and a proper limited slip diff, etc. it can go pretty much anywhere.
It’s not as good in the snow as my quattro A8 (on winters) though, but better than when it’s on it’s summers.
Edited by dvs_dave on Saturday 1st December 15:01
The OP claim was that AWD on summers are not useless on snow. All the other scenarios are irrelevant.
Having driven most of my adult life in countries with bad winters and legal obligation to have winter tyres, you can drive easily in any car with winters on snow. The drivetrain makes very little difference.
When tackling the same roads with summers, its a much more unstable affair, more accident prone, and far far slower. This is clearly demonstrated in the vids within this thread.
The majority of people would class an AWD with summers as useless if they had tried both types of tyres.
Having driven most of my adult life in countries with bad winters and legal obligation to have winter tyres, you can drive easily in any car with winters on snow. The drivetrain makes very little difference.
When tackling the same roads with summers, its a much more unstable affair, more accident prone, and far far slower. This is clearly demonstrated in the vids within this thread.
The majority of people would class an AWD with summers as useless if they had tried both types of tyres.
Catatafish said:
The OP claim was that AWD on summers are not useless on snow. All the other scenarios are irrelevant.
Having driven most of my adult life in countries with bad winters and legal obligation to have winter tyres, you can drive easily in any car with winters on snow. The drivetrain makes very little difference.
When tackling the same roads with summers, its a much more unstable affair, more accident prone, and far far slower. This is clearly demonstrated in the vids within this thread.
The majority of people would class an AWD with summers as useless if they had tried both types of tyres.
..and you speak for the majority?Having driven most of my adult life in countries with bad winters and legal obligation to have winter tyres, you can drive easily in any car with winters on snow. The drivetrain makes very little difference.
When tackling the same roads with summers, its a much more unstable affair, more accident prone, and far far slower. This is clearly demonstrated in the vids within this thread.
The majority of people would class an AWD with summers as useless if they had tried both types of tyres.
Just to stir up the hornet's nest a bit, I've tried most tyre/drive combinations and can confirm that whilst AWD on summers in winter is nowhere near as good as anything on winters, it's certainly a step up from from FWD or RWD on summers, and that qualifies the combination as certainly not useless.
popeyewhite said:
Catatafish said:
The OP claim was that AWD on summers are not useless on snow. All the other scenarios are irrelevant.
Having driven most of my adult life in countries with bad winters and legal obligation to have winter tyres, you can drive easily in any car with winters on snow. The drivetrain makes very little difference.
When tackling the same roads with summers, its a much more unstable affair, more accident prone, and far far slower. This is clearly demonstrated in the vids within this thread.
The majority of people would class an AWD with summers as useless if they had tried both types of tyres.
..and you speak for the majority?Having driven most of my adult life in countries with bad winters and legal obligation to have winter tyres, you can drive easily in any car with winters on snow. The drivetrain makes very little difference.
When tackling the same roads with summers, its a much more unstable affair, more accident prone, and far far slower. This is clearly demonstrated in the vids within this thread.
The majority of people would class an AWD with summers as useless if they had tried both types of tyres.
Just to stir up the hornet's nest a bit, I've tried most tyre/drive combinations and can confirm that whilst AWD on summers in winter is nowhere near as good as anything on winters, it's certainly a step up from from FWD or RWD on summers, and that qualifies the combination as certainly not useless.
popeyewhite said:
Catatafish said:
The OP claim was that AWD on summers are not useless on snow. All the other scenarios are irrelevant.
Having driven most of my adult life in countries with bad winters and legal obligation to have winter tyres, you can drive easily in any car with winters on snow. The drivetrain makes very little difference.
When tackling the same roads with summers, its a much more unstable affair, more accident prone, and far far slower. This is clearly demonstrated in the vids within this thread.
The majority of people would class an AWD with summers as useless if they had tried both types of tyres.
..and you speak for the majority?Having driven most of my adult life in countries with bad winters and legal obligation to have winter tyres, you can drive easily in any car with winters on snow. The drivetrain makes very little difference.
When tackling the same roads with summers, its a much more unstable affair, more accident prone, and far far slower. This is clearly demonstrated in the vids within this thread.
The majority of people would class an AWD with summers as useless if they had tried both types of tyres.
Just to stir up the hornet's nest a bit, I've tried most tyre/drive combinations and can confirm that whilst AWD on summers in winter is nowhere near as good as anything on winters, it's certainly a step up from from FWD or RWD on summers, and that qualifies the combination as certainly not useless.
Generally the vernacular of "useless" isn't the absolute technical meaning of the word, it's simply another way to express bad or rubbish.
When Joe blogs has collided with something in his summer tyred awd on snow he's not going to describe his vehicle as useful is he.
But still this thread should be taken out, shot in the head and kicked into a hole, so sorry for prolonging that.
I'm sure someone will be along shortly to argue ad nauseum around their perception of meaning, changing the goal posts continuously to suit their deranged ego.
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