4wd or winter tyres, which is better?

[Mandalore]

Finlandia said:

Scootersp said:

For me pecking order is

4wd and winter tyres (different diff's and 4wd types will give some capability range within this group)
2wd with Winter tyres
4wd with non winter tyres
2wd (fwd) with non winter tyres
2wd (rwd) with non winter tyres

The only adjustment I would make to that list is that a FWD car on winter tyres is better than a RWD car on winter tyres, simply for the reason that when you get stuck you can wiggle your way out by turning the driven wheels to find grip.

It can also be argued that a 4wd car on summer tyres is more dangerous than a 2wd car on same tyres, they are easier to get up to speed but stopping is as difficult as a 2wd car.

As for the 4x4 video, we drive on roads like that for much of the year, only we mostly do it in 2WD cars and always on winter tyres, and at much higher speeds.

So, is that an assumption that people in 2wd cars will always drive slower in the snow. I am not sure I would agree that it is guaranteed.

Edited by Mandalore on Friday 9th November 13:27

[thiscocks]

Finlandia said:

The only adjustment I would make to that list is that a FWD car on winter tyres is better than a RWD car on winter tyres, simply for the reason that when you get stuck you can wiggle your way out by turning the driven wheels to find grip.

And there is normally more weight over the FWD cars tyres compared to RWD.

Finlandia said:

It can also be argued that a 4wd car on summer tyres is more dangerous than a 2wd car on same tyres, they are easier to get up to speed but stopping is as difficult as a 2wd car.

If you have full time 4WD surely it will brake a bit better having engine braking on all four wheels as opposed to just 2?

[Mandalore]

thiscocks said:

Finlandia said:

The only adjustment I would make to that list is that a FWD car on winter tyres is better than a RWD car on winter tyres, simply for the reason that when you get stuck you can wiggle your way out by turning the driven wheels to find grip.

And there is normally more weight over the FWD cars tyres compared to RWD.

Finlandia said:

It can also be argued that a 4wd car on summer tyres is more dangerous than a 2wd car on same tyres, they are easier to get up to speed but stopping is as difficult as a 2wd car.

If you have full time 4WD surely it will brake a bit better having engine braking on all four wheels as opposed to just 2?

I THINK, he means that with the extra traction, and AWD will get up to speed more quickly, and during those few seconds, they are at greater risk.

Of course, once both cars are up to speed, your scenario kicks in.

[Finlandia]

Press the pedal on a 2wd and the tyres spin up, you realise it's slippery and slow down, in a 4wd you don't get that warning.
On another thread, someone posted a study made by Folksam, during the winter 4wd cars are involved in more accidents and they have a higher speed when crashing than 2wd cars, both on winter tyres.

[jagnet]

Finlandia said:

Press the pedal on a 2wd and the tyres spin up, you realise it's slippery and slow down, in a 4wd you don't get that warning.
On another thread, someone posted a study made by Folksam, during the winter 4wd cars are involved in more accidents and they have a higher speed when crashing than 2wd cars, both on winter tyres.

Here we go:

jagnet said:

This makes for interesting reading:

Folksam.se said:

Four-wheel drive cars are more often involved in crashes on ice and snow

Passenger cars with four-wheel drive increase the risk of personal injury accidents on ice or snow by between 20 and 30 percent, according to a new study from Folksam based on 35,000 police-reported accidents that occurred in Sweden since 2003.

"There is no difference between permanent and automatic four-wheel drive, nor between large or medium-sized cars, "said Matteo Rizzi, traffic researcher at Folksam.

"The results indicate that four-wheel drive masks slippery road conditions. Better grip on acceleration means that the driver does not adjust their speed for the road. When is it time to brake, the speed is higher and hence the braking distance longer, because a four-wheel drive does not brake more efficiently than a two-wheel drive, "says Matteo Rizzi.

Source (Swedish): https://nyhetsrum.folksam.se/sv/2017/05/05/ny-rapp...
Report (pdf, Swedish): http://mediaarkivet.nu/Sites/A/Folksam+Mediaarkiv/...

[Mandalore]

jagnet said:

Finlandia said:

Press the pedal on a 2wd and the tyres spin up, you realise it's slippery and slow down, in a 4wd you don't get that warning.
On another thread, someone posted a study made by Folksam, during the winter 4wd cars are involved in more accidents and they have a higher speed when crashing than 2wd cars, both on winter tyres.

Here we go:

jagnet said:

This makes for interesting reading:

Folksam.se said:

Four-wheel drive cars are more often involved in crashes on ice and snow

Passenger cars with four-wheel drive increase the risk of personal injury accidents on ice or snow by between 20 and 30 percent, according to a new study from Folksam based on 35,000 police-reported accidents that occurred in Sweden since 2003.

"There is no difference between permanent and automatic four-wheel drive, nor between large or medium-sized cars, "said Matteo Rizzi, traffic researcher at Folksam.

"The results indicate that four-wheel drive masks slippery road conditions. Better grip on acceleration means that the driver does not adjust their speed for the road. When is it time to brake, the speed is higher and hence the braking distance longer, because a four-wheel drive does not brake more efficiently than a two-wheel drive, "says Matteo Rizzi.

Source (Swedish): https://nyhetsrum.folksam.se/sv/2017/05/05/ny-rapp...
Report (pdf, Swedish): http://mediaarkivet.nu/Sites/A/Folksam+Mediaarkiv/...

To be fair, that is a bit more completing than 'can be argued that'.
It certainly answers the 'because' bit that was missing.

[Chamon_Lee]

Surely with some common sense the answers are quite obvious but just for fun.........

As you stated yourself it very much depends what tyres you have on.
No one ever said a 2 wheel drive car with winters was the ultimate wepon.
General point of view is that a rear wheel car with winter is better than an AWD with summer tyres (proven time and time again)
A rear wheel with all season tyres might be on par with a AWD with summer
A very good hack would be AWD with winters

You can ultimatley throw all that out of the window if the fool behind the wheel cant drive for st.
Seem many 4x4 stucks, AWDs stuck, FWDs stuck or abondoned and I have drove on perfectly fine in my rear wheel drive BMW in summer tyres no problem.

[BS62]

Mandalore said:

You also attempt to insist in your response that ALL your posts had contributed to a 'debate' and there is nothing controversial or troll-ish about them.
Well shucks!, your first post would argue otherwise, and - you can't delete that one now!

Err...no. For someone who takes such issue with my posts, you're good at mis-reading them. YOU said "ALL", not me.
I also make no apology for deleting the post mentioned. I've already explained why, reproduced it and have nothing to hide.

Mandalore said:

Typical fanboy, because the other thread was/is full of people who just want to get all shouty about anyone who doesn't own a BMW with winter tyres, before throwing insults at anyone with an AWD view.
Does that profile sound familiar to you (Clue - look at your first post).

No. It does not sound familiar.
I haven't done any of the things you've mentioned, although I admit my first post could be seen as an insult to the OP. It wasn't meant to be. More a sarcastic observation which I retracted when the OP made his case about the thread being in General Gassing.

Mandalore said:

As for complaining about me looking at your profile. Right back at you for looking at my post history.

You just love to twist things don't you?! I was pointing out that the source of your "BMW Fanboy" jibe was obvious, not complaining that you had a look.

Anything else you'd like to have a go about? Perhaps you don't like people who like cheese? I love cheese.

And driving in the snow.
With AWD.

[fido]

The two parameters here are Grip and Traction - winter tyres determine the level of grip and improve traction on whatever wheels are driven. I think a RWD car with locking/variable diff and winter tyres will cope with nearly everything UK roads can throw at it. That can’t be said for a 4WD car on summer tyres. Take your pick ..

[Ultrafunkula]

Finlandia said:

On another thread, someone posted a study made by Folksam, during the winter 4wd cars are involved in more accidents and they have a higher speed when crashing than 2wd cars, both on winter tyres.

Isn't that just down to driver overconfidence though, i.e the human part of the equation, not the machine?

Also, should I avoid snow completely in my Cayman with summer tyres on?

[lyonspride]

Finlandia said:

Press the pedal on a 2wd and the tyres spin up, you realise it's slippery and slow down, in a 4wd you don't get that warning.
On another thread, someone posted a study made by Folksam, during the winter 4wd cars are involved in more accidents and they have a higher speed when crashing than 2wd cars, both on winter tyres.

What about vans with yellow strobes?

Every time it snows you see these being driven at stupid speeds, tailgating, overtaking, etc.... I wonder does the yellow light melt the snow ahead of them?
It's funny because down the road from me there is a hill where vans always seen to get stuck in the snow.

[popeyewhite]

thiscocks said:

Is 4WD with no tyres on better than FWD with just rear tyres on? Go

Understeer should be interesting on snow.

[Finlandia]

Mandalore said:

To be fair, that is a bit more completing than 'can be argued that'.

I didn't want to upset the driving gods too muchly, that's the excuse I'm sticking with

Ultrafunkula said:

Isn't that just down to driver overconfidence though, i.e the human part of the equation, not the machine?

Also, should I avoid snow completely in my Cayman with summer tyres on?

Overconfidence it is, if you know what you're doing you'll be fine, I drove an XKR on wide summer tyres through two winters in SE UK, but then I have a lot of experience of winter driving, and I've got the scars to prove it

lyonspride said:

What about vans with yellow strobes?

They are affected as well, saying that, it's only just recently that Swedish authorities realised that HGVs benefit from winter tyres as well, I haven't seen a lorry stuck on unmade roads since the law was brought in so it must work.

[300bhp/ton]

thiscocks said:

Finlandia said:

The only adjustment I would make to that list is that a FWD car on winter tyres is better than a RWD car on winter tyres, simply for the reason that when you get stuck you can wiggle your way out by turning the driven wheels to find grip.

And there is normally more weight over the FWD cars tyres compared to RWD.

Finlandia said:

It can also be argued that a 4wd car on summer tyres is more dangerous than a 2wd car on same tyres, they are easier to get up to speed but stopping is as difficult as a 2wd car.

If you have full time 4WD surely it will brake a bit better having engine braking on all four wheels as opposed to just 2?

Yes significantly more braking ability with 4wd on the snow. Summer tyres won’t be the best but coupled with 4wd are a massive improvement over 2wd on the same tyres in such conditions.

[jon-]

I did this very test earlier this year, the video will be out on the channel in a week or so. Two matching BMW X1's, one with FWD and winter tyres, one with 4WD and summer tyres.

You can guess which one was comically bad.

[Pica-Pica]

jon- said:

I did this very test earlier this year, the video will be out on the channel in a week or so. Two matching BMW X1's, one with FWD and winter tyres, one with 4WD and summer tyres.

You can guess which one was comically bad.

Coming out of a wet roundabout in the summer? Yes, I can guess which one was best!

[ericmcn]

Like a puppy is not just for christmas, AWD is also not just for winter weather they offer better handling and traction than a comparable RWD/FWD car hands down. This video shows what a capable AWD can do, would be fun seeing some RWD cars in the same circuit

https://www.motor1.com/features/258339/subaru-time...

[Barchettaman]

[Finlandia]

300bhp/ton said:

thiscocks said:

Finlandia said:

The only adjustment I would make to that list is that a FWD car on winter tyres is better than a RWD car on winter tyres, simply for the reason that when you get stuck you can wiggle your way out by turning the driven wheels to find grip.

And there is normally more weight over the FWD cars tyres compared to RWD.

Finlandia said:

It can also be argued that a 4wd car on summer tyres is more dangerous than a 2wd car on same tyres, they are easier to get up to speed but stopping is as difficult as a 2wd car.

If you have full time 4WD surely it will brake a bit better having engine braking on all four wheels as opposed to just 2?

Yes significantly more braking ability with 4wd on the snow. Summer tyres won’t be the best but coupled with 4wd are a massive improvement over 2wd on the same tyres in such conditions.

Seeing as the thread title is what it is.

On another AWD vs. winter tyres thread Finlandia said:

From the Swedish edition of Auto, Motor & Sport.

Continental Premiumcontact 5 205/55-16 summer tyres vs Continental Wintercontact TS 860 205/55-16 winter tyres.

Snow.
Braking from 50kph: P - 52.7m, W - 28.4m
Track average speed: P - 8.0kph, W - 55.9kph

No AWD will save that.
On ice and snow you need tyres with better grip, not more driven wheels without grip.

[300bhp/ton]

jon- said:

I did this very test earlier this year, the video will be out on the channel in a week or so. Two matching BMW X1's, one with FWD and winter tyres, one with 4WD and summer tyres.

You can guess which one was comically bad.

So why no 4wd on winters...... that is the real question surely? Nobody really actually asks what you have done.