RE: Honda Integra DC2 Type R: Spotted

[E36Dan]

dufunk said:

https://youtu.be/2iM99fgG8K4

Mine had vtec controller making it rev to 9k along with decat and 4 inch backbox was way to loud. Handling was becoming very ropey that was around 2013 would of needed a complete suspension overhaul at that point don't no if that is a weak point on them along with rusty arches and crunchy gearbox!

My stock B18c6 would "rev to 9", the needles aren't that accurate.

[chrismc1977]

E36Dan said:

My stock B18c6 would "rev to 9", the needles aren't that accurate.

All UK cars I’ve ever been in/owned were all the same. Revved to 9k on the tacho- ~8500 in reality

[dufunk]

Would really mean vtec at 5500rpm then, as I recall the kick from 6k to 9k.

[chrismc1977]

dufunk said:

Would really mean vtec at 5500rpm then, as I recall the kick from 6k to 9k.

~5800 to ~8500 in real money

Edited by chrismc1977 on Friday 9th November 16:17

[Jonstar]

What is great about these cars is that they are brilliant in standard form - you just get in and enjoy the drive. However, as has been touched on before, if you are prepared to chuck a bit of money at a fundamentally good rwd car it will ultimately be the more rewarding drive.

[SidewaysSi]

Ollie-DC5 said:

SidewaysSi said:

Mine was quite fresh when bought and I have driven quite a few of them.

You are right in that it need a proper refresh now. So in all honesty to get things done by a specialist will all add up:

Car - £6k
Suspension refresh - £2k at least
Arches - approx £1k a side
Repaint Milano pink - £3k at a guess

It is easily a £10k + car and that is assuming the mechanicals are spot on which they probably aren't (20 years and 100k miles will have taken its toll in some areas) and also will need a refresh.

For me, the time has passed for these cars. Far better options out there for the money.

It's a decent steer (though the steering is its worst element IMO. Has Honda ever produced a car that steers properly?) but something like a (modded) 911 or Elise are quite a few rungs up the involvement/excitement ladder for similar cash.

My old E36 has had all its mechanicals upgraded, total cost is a lot less than this Honda yet it is genuinely a much nicer drive. And it oversteers. A lot and very easily.

One man's meat etc.

Where can you find a lotus elise for 10k?

£10-15k will get you an Elise. Putting the posted car right will be more than £10k to be honest.

As for other posts, I never removed the PAS from my car. Spoke to various specialists about doing it but was advised against it. IMO the feel was very poor.

And yes a 911 will cost more but it is so much more of an event and a challenge to drive so worth the extra outlay IMO. And Elises don't need fettling if you buy right.

The Integra is a good car buy hardly hits the highs of the best out there and to think otherwise is somewhat delusional IME.

[chrismc1977]

Si- Bushes don’t cost £2k for anyone who can wield a spanner- (or even those folk who buy the arms & then pay someone to fit them)

Arches- who knows. But £1k a side has to be WORST case scenario. If they were that far gone you wouldn’t part with £6k in the first place though.

[Gompo]

With regards to the '£10k' argument, those looking at spending that amount will just buy one at £9-10k, which should need little or no work, rather than buy something like this and throw another £4k at it straight away.

I do think this one is a decent buy, for the future owner to upgrade/renovate in time while still having a decent car that's not at the top of its game.

[cat220]

I feel the dc2 advertised is getting a hard time, lots of assumptions around what it might need and costs involved. It's never failed an MOT in 12 years and has had zero advisories. That speaks volumes as to how well it's been looked after. A lot of what has been mentioned above is preventative maintenance and could be done if desired over a period of time.
Even at 120k miles my dc2 was great to drive and it wasn't a pampered example. Very few things south of 20k are more rewarding and involving to drive along a twisty b-road.
Comparing it to a 911, totally different league of car in every way. You need deep pockets to keep one in tip top condition and a big 'just in case' fund. Whereas the DC2 is no more expensive to run that any other Honda.

Edited by cat220 on Saturday 10th November 00:50

[SidewaysSi]

chrismc1977 said:

Si- Bushes don’t cost £2k for anyone who can wield a spanner- (or even those folk who buy the arms & then pay someone to fit them)

Arches- who knows. But £1k a side has to be WORST case scenario. If they were that far gone you wouldn’t part with £6k in the first place though.

A full suspension refresh is more than just bushes...

And any sign of rust probably means it has gone all the way through. I was quoted £1k a side from TGM on my car. Maybe it is £600 at some places. Add VAT etc and it is same ballpark.

Either way these are not cheap if you want a fit one. Of course, buy a worn nail, run it and flog it as a worn nail and who really cares? But it won't be a decent drive.

As I said if it were my £10-12k, there are lots of preferable cars out there. Just my opinion course.

[chrismc1977]

SidewaysSi said:

A full suspension refresh is more than just bushes...

So you’re thinking new dampers as well &/or coilovers?

Bilsteins/Koni dampers @ £150/corner £600
Bushing kit £300
Droplinks/Sundries £100

I’m not sure it’s realistic to base mechanical costings on throwing the car at a ‘specialist’. It’s a Honda tbf. Some folk can & will DIY to a very good standard

[havoc]

SidewaysSi said:

As I said if it were my £10-12k, there are lots of preferable cars out there. Just my opinion course.

Which is fair enough. But how many of those cars are significantly younger / lower mileage, so won't need the same sort of refurbishment work? (or something different needing doing - I don't think there's a modern-classic out there that doesn't need something checking / replacing / repairing)

Plus I really can't see a £10k Elise being anything other than tired itself (there are 2 boggo S1s at £12k, one of which has a lot of history but is on 141k and its second engine, and the cheapest S2s are £14k), so like-for-like an Elise is going to be +/- £5k more than a 'teg. E36 M3's start really at £10k too (plus any remedial work, and parts for them are more expensive), while I'm not sure I'd have the pockets to do a proper refurb of an older 986, lovely though they are...


Anyway, the 'teg...when they were £3-6k they were a ridiculous bargain.

At the prices now, they're a little expensive, but actually not so much vs the competition - the DC2 is better than ANY hot-hatch out there with the possible exception of the Clio Trophy (crap driving position, so-so gearbox) and the R26.R (torquey but lacklustre engine in comparison, no rear seats), both of which are more £.
It's definitely better than the 205 GTi, which is now fetching silly money.
...and it's been compared broadly equivalently to the E30 M3, which is fetching even sillier money, mainly because of the motorsport pedigree.



So...where would your £10k go, assuming no further budget for refurbishment / replacement / repairs?

[C7 SL]

I absolutely adored my DC2. I owned it for 8 years and on the right road it was just epic. I carried out a complete suspension overhaul as it was starting to feel tired at 74K and it felt so much better after it. You could drive it hard on the road without doing silly speeds. I’ve had faster cars but for me speed doesn’t equal fun.

For anyone who is tempted but not sure, drive one that’s had a suspension refresh if you can. You might then choose to buy one that needs some work doing to it but you will then have a benchmark.

They are hugely sensitive to tyre choice as others have mentioned. Far more than any other car I’ve driven. It felt so good on Yokohama AD08 which I fitted after Bridgestone stopped making the OEM figment. A tyre without a stiff sidewall completely ruins the handling and feel.

I desperately miss mine.

Edited by C7 SL on Friday 9th November 22:22

[E36Dan]

SidewaysSi said:

As for other posts, I never removed the PAS from my car. Spoke to various specialists about doing it but was advised against it. IMO the feel was very poor.

Fair enough! For reference I just looped mine, so it was the cheapo way, but felt good. Even better when you take the 'rack off and gut the inners, so I'm told.

[MiseryStreak]

havoc said:

Which is fair enough. But how many of those cars are significantly younger / lower mileage, so won't need the same sort of refurbishment work? (or something different needing doing - I don't think there's a modern-classic out there that doesn't need something checking / replacing / repairing)

Plus I really can't see a £10k Elise being anything other than tired itself (there are 2 boggo S1s at £12k, one of which has a lot of history but is on 141k and its second engine, and the cheapest S2s are £14k), so like-for-like an Elise is going to be +/- £5k more than a 'teg. E36 M3's start really at £10k too (plus any remedial work, and parts for them are more expensive), while I'm not sure I'd have the pockets to do a proper refurb of an older 986, lovely though they are...


Anyway, the 'teg...when they were £3-6k they were a ridiculous bargain.

At the prices now, they're a little expensive, but actually not so much vs the competition - the DC2 is better than ANY hot-hatch out there with the possible exception of the Clio Trophy (crap driving position, so-so gearbox) and the R26.R (torquey but lacklustre engine in comparison, no rear seats), both of which are more £.
It's definitely better than the 205 GTi, which is now fetching silly money.
...and it's been compared broadly equivalently to the E30 M3, which is fetching even sillier money, mainly because of the motorsport pedigree.



So...where would your £10k go, assuming no further budget for refurbishment / replacement / repairs?

I agree with all that. I went from a 205 GTi to a Clio Trophy to an Integra Type-R, then a Lotus Elan Sprint. In many ways the ITR was the best car, it was so much fun to drive and super reliable. It had a big boot, I could slot my mountain bike in the back without taking the wheels off. I drove five of us to the Nurburgring, did 10 laps over a couple of days, took in the local sites and drove us home again. It didn’t even use any oil (plenty of fuel though - 11mpg on the ‘Ring). It had lovely steering, quite dead when just pootling around town or when not steering, but on track with the front tyres loaded up it was perfect. The balance of the car was spot on, and really well behaved under hard braking, more stable and planted than the Trophy, which would writhe around under braking. The engine is one of finest things made by man. And it had a titanium gearknob (as an ITR forum member once told me was ‘fashioned from one of Robocop’s nads’.

I want a Lotus Elise next. But with a Honda engine.

Edited by MiseryStreak on Saturday 10th November 20:51

[paulmnz]

SidewaysSi said:

The Integra is a good car buy hardly hits the highs of the best out there and to think otherwise is somewhat delusional IME.

I still have a UK spec DC2, along with a number of 'legendary' RWD drivers cars worth loads more money and with lots more power, and I would rate a DC2 as highly as them - it is superb. even a well used old nail is fantastic to drive.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I would disagree that those that hold Integras in high regard are delusional - there is enough press articles (and PH articles) to suggest they are something pretty special.

Even contemerary articles from 2017/18 still rave about them:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/classic/honda-int...

"What a joy this car is. A riot of poise, feedback and agility of the likes we’ll probably never see again. The best-handling front-wheel-drive car ever? It might just be."


https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/used-car-buying...

"The Honda Integra Type R is, without question, my shout for the best front-drive car of all time. I think it’s better than a Peugeot 205 GTi, better than a Mk1 Volkswagen Golf GTI, better than the latest, greatest, 300bhp hot hatchbacks. Better than, actually, 90% of rear-drive cars.
It’s a thing of such perfection and of modest output, and of such purity, that I doubt we’ll see its like again. A bold thing to say? Perhaps."
"The last thing an Integra will lose, I suspect, is that VTEC engine’s phenomenal kick, but wonderful though that is, it’s the steering and the handling that outclass it. Here’s a car that isn’t just the best front-driver in the world: it’s one of the greatest driver’s cars of all time. Which wheels are powered is almost incidental."

Edited by paulmnz on Sunday 11th November 19:31

[Turn7]

Good Tegs are 10k regardless of DC2/5.....

Plenty of worn out rubbish at £5k....

See this thread on how to make it minty....

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

A Teg is still an event to drive, and you need to buy wisely and eyes wide open....

I lusted after a DC5 for a long time after my DC2, but am now in a Caterham which makes me very happy.

[greenarrow]

SidewaysSi said:

Ollie-DC5 said:

SidewaysSi said:

Mine was quite fresh when bought and I have driven quite a few of them.

You are right in that it need a proper refresh now. So in all honesty to get things done by a specialist will all add up:

Car - £6k
Suspension refresh - £2k at least
Arches - approx £1k a side
Repaint Milano pink - £3k at a guess

It is easily a £10k + car and that is assuming the mechanicals are spot on which they probably aren't (20 years and 100k miles will have taken its toll in some areas) and also will need a refresh.

For me, the time has passed for these cars. Far better options out there for the money.

It's a decent steer (though the steering is its worst element IMO. Has Honda ever produced a car that steers properly?) but something like a (modded) 911 or Elise are quite a few rungs up the involvement/excitement ladder for similar cash.

My old E36 has had all its mechanicals upgraded, total cost is a lot less than this Honda yet it is genuinely a much nicer drive. And it oversteers. A lot and very easily.

One man's meat etc.

Where can you find a lotus elise for 10k?

£10-15k will get you an Elise. Putting the posted car right will be more than £10k to be honest.

As for other posts, I never removed the PAS from my car. Spoke to various specialists about doing it but was advised against it. IMO the feel was very poor.

And yes a 911 will cost more but it is so much more of an event and a challenge to drive so worth the extra outlay IMO. And Elises don't need fettling if you buy right.

The Integra is a good car buy hardly hits the highs of the best out there and to think otherwise is somewhat delusional IME.

You make some good points... I'd love an Integra Type R, but for the price of a good one, there are these other options. The other thing that has always puzzled me. The Teg R's legend seems to have grown many years after it was in production. I've all the old car magazines from when it was in production and whilst it was rated, it wasn't winning any "best drivers car" type competitions. I think its fair to say that it was overshadowed at the time by the similarly priced UK Mk1 Subaru Impreza Turbo, which was just a little bit faster everywhere and wowed testers more due to its bang per buck. That was certainly the case in all the group comparison tests. The Elise of course won every award going back in 96.

It also makes me laugh a bit when Autocar now gush on about the DC2 being the best FWD car ever- when they twin tested the DC2 with the Fiat Coupe Turbo in 1997, they gave the nod to the Fiat!! Matt Prior, if you are reading this, how embarrassed you must feel about your predecessors!

Anyway at £5995 this looks decent enough. However, my £5995 would probably go on a Renaultsport Megane. The R26 F1 can easily be found for that price and in fact there's currently a 250 CUP on Autotrader at £6080. Engine aside, these cars I would argue are better all rounders for the money.

[JLC25]

"Why, then, do the words 'DC2 Integra Type R' not pass through the lips of as many petrolheads after a performance bargain as, say, Renaultsport Clio or the DC2's younger cousin, the Civic Type R?"

I think we can see why in this thread - 4k on either a 182 or EP3 will get you a nice sorted one with no real need for major work. 4k for a Teg get's you one in need of a fair bit of work.

greenarrow said:

It also makes me laugh a bit when Autocar now gush on about the DC2 being the best FWD car ever- when they twin tested the DC2 with the Fiat Coupe Turbo in 1997, they gave the nod to the Fiat!! Matt Prior, if you are reading this, how embarrassed you must feel about your predecessors!

I seem to remember another magazine claiming both the PH1 172 and Puma Racing as better cars too.

Still, great lookers and I'd love to drive one.

Edited by JLC25 on Tuesday 13th November 16:21

[havoc]

greenarrow said:

The other thing that has always puzzled me. The Teg R's legend seems to have grown many years after it was in production. I've all the old car magazines from when it was in production and whilst it was rated, it wasn't winning any "best drivers car" type competitions. I think its fair to say that it was overshadowed at the time by the similarly priced UK Mk1 Subaru Impreza Turbo, which was just a little bit faster everywhere and wowed testers more due to its bang per buck. That was certainly the case in all the group comparison tests.

Not sure where you're getting that from, except 0-60 where the 4wd is a benefit. The original (and comparable) Impreza Turbo 2000 was 208/215bhp and 100-150kg heavier, so a broadly similar power/weight (and better torque/weight), but greater transmission losses due to 4wd.
(0-60 the Subaru is +/- 0.8s ahead, depending on source, 0-100 they're <0.5s adrift (most sources), suggesting that 60-100 favours the Integra slightly, which is probably a better metric of real-world straight-line acceleration as it removes any launch advantage)
...and that's before considering cross-country pace, where the Subaru would be lagging behind in the dry and probably not be that much quicker in the wet (again, only due to traction).


I suspect that what was happening with the reviews is a combination of
- the aforementioned prices (although I don't think there was that much between them...possibly just the Subaru was 4wd and >200bhp so seemed better VFM),
- your selective memory (everyone remembers what they want to, to a degree...but see footnote), and
- an element in those early reviews that the Subaru was:-
(a) torquier, therefore easier for a journo to get the performance out of (it has been ever thus...very few journos* seem to like peaky nat-asp engines...until recently now they're all gone and everyone's bemoaning their passing) - and I'll freely admit the old 'teg IS lacklustre off-cam; and
(b) the then WRC darling with McRae at the wheel, so already had a lot of perceived kudos and reputation...the 'teg had nothing. The DC2 is also a car that shines brighter the harder you push it and the more you get used to it, which isn't a characteristic that's easy to appraise on a launch review.

I think what was as much to blame is that the DC2 was a stripped-out special at a time when the Elise was groundbreaking and, Peugeot partly aside with the tamer Rallye's (and Porsche a decade before with the 964RS which was a totally different league), no-one had done anything like that. A lot of reviewers criticised the 'rawness' of the car...yet now we're completely attuned to GT3s and GT4s, to R26.Rs, to Golf Clubsports, etc. etc. - so the modern market is a lot more accepting of that sort of character in a car. Add-in that the DC2 feels lithe on the road vs modern cars yet felt firm vs competition at the time...again q.v. 964RS.

Certainly the buying public bought into the Impreza more at the time, whether due to the rawness, the bobble-hat brigade or the perceived benefits of turbo / 4wd / mainstream reviews.



* Except Russell Bulgin - worth googling for his review on the DC2. Oh, and LJKS, who loved his Hondas...