What car has the best ever build quality?
Discussion
Not Invented Here senior (in his mid 80s now) bought a Rover 75 2.5 v6 pre-facelift light green estate 17 years ago. Mostly trips to the shops but it's been as far as eastern Europe and Italy a few times.
He's kept all the bills in a briefcase over the years and told me the other day that not including tax and insurance, but including MoTs and (very occasional) servicing and what ever parts and work it's needed, it's cost him £3.5k in total.
£3.5k in 17 years.
Strikes me that there are quite a few on AT for their age.
He's kept all the bills in a briefcase over the years and told me the other day that not including tax and insurance, but including MoTs and (very occasional) servicing and what ever parts and work it's needed, it's cost him £3.5k in total.
£3.5k in 17 years.
Strikes me that there are quite a few on AT for their age.
My £400 Honda Prelude has been faultless since £30 spent on a distributor cap and some HT leads. Everything is easy to access. It's main mentionable feature is double wishbone suspension front and rear. It seems a fair expense and good deal of engineering to lavish on a fwd car with a sohc 2.0 where a cheaper alternative would have done the job. I've not come across a single siezed but or bolt on it.
For a 21 year old car im impressed it hasn't got any rust coming through, hasn't let me down and feels positive to drive despite not being the quick one.
I run an E46 too which is lovely but I've had to spend out too much to consider it to be reliable. Although with everything I've done it should now be. I didn't think the build quality or longevity was anything special when sawing through rust siezed nuts and bolts.
For a 21 year old car im impressed it hasn't got any rust coming through, hasn't let me down and feels positive to drive despite not being the quick one.
I run an E46 too which is lovely but I've had to spend out too much to consider it to be reliable. Although with everything I've done it should now be. I didn't think the build quality or longevity was anything special when sawing through rust siezed nuts and bolts.
It is the 80 series Landcruisers & the Lexus LS400, hewn from the same stuff & the same era of Japanese engineering. I've owned several 80's & an LS over the years, utterly brilliant things not once have been let down by them in what must be 20 years of ownership.
I still have an early 80 a proper clockwork one, 4.2TD, non abs, early ones had the simpler autobox, does have ac & cruise, leccy windows & mirrors its the most dependable thing I own, everything still works beautifully & its now 26 years old. Thankfully a rust proofed one in its early life so NO rust!! Mechanically original too.
Its MOT time next week & hopefully another pass, its never failed one in 25 years. Surprisingly cheap to run as a long term proposition, yes they are a bit juicy on fuel but annual costs, fuel aside is in the few hundreds for servicing tops. Biggest expense this year was some wiper blades, wheel balancing & I treated it to some braided brake lines. Mine gets used for boat towing, flood duties & winter mucking about in the snow.
Interesting some of the 2000 era Volvo's get mentioned, they had Denso systems & Aisin gearboxes etc all the same stuff the best Japanese cars had.
I work within the motor industry so have a good view on this, modern stuff I'm going to say currently its the last gen Leaf (Denso electronics) Japanese Suzuki's (the new Jimny will be good) & some of the Korean stuff. Anything running Bosch is junk in comparison.
I'm sure someone can make a list of all the Denso system cars out there, that will be a good pointer.
I still have an early 80 a proper clockwork one, 4.2TD, non abs, early ones had the simpler autobox, does have ac & cruise, leccy windows & mirrors its the most dependable thing I own, everything still works beautifully & its now 26 years old. Thankfully a rust proofed one in its early life so NO rust!! Mechanically original too.
Its MOT time next week & hopefully another pass, its never failed one in 25 years. Surprisingly cheap to run as a long term proposition, yes they are a bit juicy on fuel but annual costs, fuel aside is in the few hundreds for servicing tops. Biggest expense this year was some wiper blades, wheel balancing & I treated it to some braided brake lines. Mine gets used for boat towing, flood duties & winter mucking about in the snow.
Interesting some of the 2000 era Volvo's get mentioned, they had Denso systems & Aisin gearboxes etc all the same stuff the best Japanese cars had.
I work within the motor industry so have a good view on this, modern stuff I'm going to say currently its the last gen Leaf (Denso electronics) Japanese Suzuki's (the new Jimny will be good) & some of the Korean stuff. Anything running Bosch is junk in comparison.
I'm sure someone can make a list of all the Denso system cars out there, that will be a good pointer.
A google does not really reveal what cars had Denso systems, but do an eBay search for Denso ECU. Boom a list of the most reliable cockroach cars out there, almost.
Interestingly some of the Jag V8's were, are these by any chance the most reliable ones? not up on modern era jags but someone will know the answer to that?
Just from that eBay search I'm going to say Volvo's with the Yamaha V8 would be a very good bet.
Finally the Prius, forgot about them, undoubtedly THE winner for anything made in the last ten years.
Interestingly some of the Jag V8's were, are these by any chance the most reliable ones? not up on modern era jags but someone will know the answer to that?
Just from that eBay search I'm going to say Volvo's with the Yamaha V8 would be a very good bet.
Finally the Prius, forgot about them, undoubtedly THE winner for anything made in the last ten years.
This is a very interesting topic.
If I think about what build quality means, I think it's a combination of factors that include:
- Robustness
- Perception of quality i.e. touch and feel of materials, sounds
- Actual quality i.e. no expense spared approach to use of the most appropriate materials. i.e. quality of leather, thickness of steel, grade of steel, type of paint etc
- Engineering tolerances i.e. panel gaps
- Attention to detail i.e. the thought that has gone into the design
- Reliability
No manufacturer that I know of has ever nailed it in all these aspects.
The Mercedes from the 80s to the late 90s eg. W124,W140, W126,190E felt solid, had very reliable engines, felt robust, had quality feeling materials that, in my opinion, far exceed today's cars. However, in my personal experience things tend to go wrong and the bodies corrode.
The e34 is on par with the mercedes from this era, but it is also susceptible to rust and mechanical failure.
I would put three cars/manufacturers on par for the build quality crown:
The lexus LS400, which is superior to the Mercs and the BMW in every way, except the perception of quality of the interior.
The landcruiser amazon is a different proposition: not a luxury car but better than the equivalent G wagon in almost every respect in my humble opinion - except perceived quality and interior (later Gs)
The 90s to early 2000 hondas: Civic, Accord, prelude, FRV, NSX, S2000....all of them. This was a magic period for Honda. Engines, drivetrains, bodywork, mechanicals. EVERYTHING was engineered beautifully. They didn't 'feel' as special as mercedes or bmw or bentley or rolls....they certainly lacked character, but they were better built, better engineered, better quality items overall, I feel, and I'd actually give these cars the edge over the Lexus and the Landcruiser.
If I think about what build quality means, I think it's a combination of factors that include:
- Robustness
- Perception of quality i.e. touch and feel of materials, sounds
- Actual quality i.e. no expense spared approach to use of the most appropriate materials. i.e. quality of leather, thickness of steel, grade of steel, type of paint etc
- Engineering tolerances i.e. panel gaps
- Attention to detail i.e. the thought that has gone into the design
- Reliability
No manufacturer that I know of has ever nailed it in all these aspects.
The Mercedes from the 80s to the late 90s eg. W124,W140, W126,190E felt solid, had very reliable engines, felt robust, had quality feeling materials that, in my opinion, far exceed today's cars. However, in my personal experience things tend to go wrong and the bodies corrode.
The e34 is on par with the mercedes from this era, but it is also susceptible to rust and mechanical failure.
I would put three cars/manufacturers on par for the build quality crown:
The lexus LS400, which is superior to the Mercs and the BMW in every way, except the perception of quality of the interior.
The landcruiser amazon is a different proposition: not a luxury car but better than the equivalent G wagon in almost every respect in my humble opinion - except perceived quality and interior (later Gs)
The 90s to early 2000 hondas: Civic, Accord, prelude, FRV, NSX, S2000....all of them. This was a magic period for Honda. Engines, drivetrains, bodywork, mechanicals. EVERYTHING was engineered beautifully. They didn't 'feel' as special as mercedes or bmw or bentley or rolls....they certainly lacked character, but they were better built, better engineered, better quality items overall, I feel, and I'd actually give these cars the edge over the Lexus and the Landcruiser.
For posters on Autos
te, a website for people dedicated to running old and sometimes rather unloved cars, the general consensus is that older Volvos - and particularly the 740, are the most robust cars of recent times. If quality is robustness as it tends to be measured on AS, then those Volvos are generally regarded as being far superior to any contemporary made by Mercedes. Mercedes as the last word in quality is very much a Piston Heads thing.
te, a website for people dedicated to running old and sometimes rather unloved cars, the general consensus is that older Volvos - and particularly the 740, are the most robust cars of recent times. If quality is robustness as it tends to be measured on AS, then those Volvos are generally regarded as being far superior to any contemporary made by Mercedes. Mercedes as the last word in quality is very much a Piston Heads thing.Edited by dbdb on Saturday 10th November 00:14
Left field car here, Subaru Legacy anything from 1990-2000. Many of these were worked hard, lived outside yet owners loved them, clocked up huge miles and then bought another. Maybe not a high volume car but across pats of the UK and throughout the USA the Subaru Legacy is a hugely well build car with a massive lifespan and over engineered.
Surely it's the 2000 2.0 6-cyl Z3 that I bought 5 years ago 'as a laugh' with a spare £1750.
'A bit of summer fun' I told the missus.
40K miles later, no TLC, services or generally any love at all and it refuses to break while spitting in the face of MOT testers on an annual basis.
It's no E39 clearly, but BMWs from this era have been almost annoyingly good to me. 'When the head gasket goes I'll get something nice on finance love'. Feel like I've let an elderly relative move in who now refuses to let go, and often confounds expectations by occasionally hitching up its beige skirt for a spirited dance.
Best ever build quality? No. But sorely underrated build quality for sure.
Fwiw, LS400 gets my 'actual' vote.
'A bit of summer fun' I told the missus.
40K miles later, no TLC, services or generally any love at all and it refuses to break while spitting in the face of MOT testers on an annual basis.
It's no E39 clearly, but BMWs from this era have been almost annoyingly good to me. 'When the head gasket goes I'll get something nice on finance love'. Feel like I've let an elderly relative move in who now refuses to let go, and often confounds expectations by occasionally hitching up its beige skirt for a spirited dance.
Best ever build quality? No. But sorely underrated build quality for sure.
Fwiw, LS400 gets my 'actual' vote.
cptsideways said:
I'm sure someone can make a list of all the Denso system cars out there, that will be a good pointer.
Subaru switched to Denso around 2001 FWIW. My 2002 Legacy GTB is Denso and has been great - I've had it for 10 years and put 120,000km on it myself, aside from normal servicing etc I think the only problem has been a MAP sensor. I don't think most people would put twin-turbo Subarus on a 'most reliable vehicles ever' list, but there you go.wong said:
There is a lot going for the LS400. No one mentions the LS430. Is this third gen. LS somehow less well built?
I think most include it within the LS400 category, as it's the same car with the same engine just 300cc larger.That said you do see more for sale with problems typically the air suspension.
The problem being that as everyone knows they're reliable idiots buy old ones don't service them and are then shocked when something goes wrong around 150k+ miles.
chappardababbar said:
The 90s to early 2000 hondas: Civic, Accord, prelude, FRV, NSX, S2000....all of them. This was a magic period for Honda. Engines, drivetrains, bodywork, mechanicals. EVERYTHING was engineered beautifully. They didn't 'feel' as special as mercedes or bmw or bentley or rolls....they certainly lacked character, but they were better built, better engineered, better quality items overall, I feel, and I'd actually give these cars the edge over the Lexus and the Landcruiser.
They must have let the apprentice loose on the '98 Civic my mate had then as it was an absolute nail, it used nearly as much oil as petrol, the interior was knackered (if you were sat in the back whilst going over a speed bump you could fell your arse hitting the metal seat base!) and it was starting to rust. Then the engine went bang on the local dual carrigeway, it did have double wishbone suspension though, that impressed me!
wong said:
There is a lot going for the LS400. No one mentions the LS430. Is this third gen. LS somehow less well built?
The LS400 is more iconic than the 430 i think and its a car that instantly comes to the mind of most car folk. The 430 itself is pretty incredible and some crazy bargains to be had.Edited by ericmcn on Saturday 10th November 15:22
cptsideways said:
A google does not really reveal what cars had Denso systems, but do an eBay search for Denso ECU. Boom a list of the most reliable cockroach cars out there, almost.
Like the old clonker Subaru Legacies, most of them denso cars will outlive the owners themselves, in retrorespect most of the Bosch stuff will either have the owners bankrupt or be in a skip somewhere.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff