RE: Jaguar reveals F-Type convertible rally special
Discussion
Jon_S_Rally said:
The thing is, if the WRC hadn't changed, it probably wouldn't exist at all. The old format was becoming unsustainable and manufacturers didn't want it anymore. Most rally fans would love to see long events, filled with homologation specials, but it just isn't going to happen. I am a massive fan of the Group A era. I would love if we could repeat it, but we can't.
Err.......Group A was after Grp.B, and thus was already short office-hours rallying, hardly want to go back to that!!!If you think Grp A era were long events they were nothing compared with pre-86!
No need to go back to homolgation specials either, just as set of rules to limit what can be changed on a production car, this Jag F-Type being a perfect case in point......
aeropilot said:
Err.......Group A was after Grp.B, and thus was already short office-hours rallying, hardly want to go back to that!!!
If you think Grp A era were long events they were nothing compared with pre-86!
No need to go back to homolgation specials either, just as set of rules to limit what can be changed on a production car, this Jag F-Type being a perfect case in point......
They were introduced at the same time if you want to be pedantic, but my point was that we all have our favourite eras, it doesn't mean they can, or even should, come back. The manufacturers are worried about cost as it is. If the FIA suddenly trebled the length of the events, the sport would die, as all the teams would likely pull out. Similarly, if all the cars suddenly became lightly modified production cars, the sport would die, as people seem to want cars that look as fast as they go. The buzz surrounding the introduction of the 2017 cars showed that, even though I was one of those that said it was unnecessary. WRC is already struggling to compete in terms of viewing figures. The last thing it needs is to become even more expensive, even more difficult to capture and less of a spectacle.If you think Grp A era were long events they were nothing compared with pre-86!
No need to go back to homolgation specials either, just as set of rules to limit what can be changed on a production car, this Jag F-Type being a perfect case in point......
Given how good the last couple of seasons have been in terms of competition, I think we're doing ok on the sporting side, if not the promotion side. Like I said, while I look back on previous eras fondly, I recognise that all sport has to move with the times in order to survive.
Jon_S_Rally said:
They were introduced at the same time if you want to be pedantic
Yes, but the performance gap between the two classes was far too extreme......again, being detrimental to the sport.Jon_S_Rally said:
The manufacturers are worried about cost as it is. If the FIA suddenly trebled the length of the events, the sport would die, as all the teams would likely pull out. Similarly, if all the cars suddenly became lightly modified production cars, the sport would die, as people seem to want cars that look as fast as they go. The buzz surrounding the introduction of the 2017 cars showed that, even though I was one of those that said it was unnecessary. WRC is already struggling to compete in terms of viewing figures. The last thing it needs is to become even more expensive, even more difficult to capture and less of a spectacle.
Again, you're fixating on the spectator sport rather than it being about the people actually doing the bloody thing, as most people that don't or have never competed do, and ignoring the gulf that exists between club, national and international competitions which needs to narrow, just as it was back in the old Group 1,2 & 4 days. The sport is dying because its dying at grass roots level (in my old motor club it certainly has, other than 'historic' class, which tells you a lot about the state of rallying today)
aeropilot said:
Jon_S_Rally said:
They were introduced at the same time if you want to be pedantic
Yes, but the performance gap between the two classes was far too extreme......again, being detrimental to the sport.Jon_S_Rally said:
The manufacturers are worried about cost as it is. If the FIA suddenly trebled the length of the events, the sport would die, as all the teams would likely pull out. Similarly, if all the cars suddenly became lightly modified production cars, the sport would die, as people seem to want cars that look as fast as they go. The buzz surrounding the introduction of the 2017 cars showed that, even though I was one of those that said it was unnecessary. WRC is already struggling to compete in terms of viewing figures. The last thing it needs is to become even more expensive, even more difficult to capture and less of a spectacle.
Again, you're fixating on the spectator sport rather than it being about the people actually doing the bloody thing, as most people that don't or have never competed do, and ignoring the gulf that exists between club, national and international competitions which needs to narrow, just as it was back in the old Group 1,2 & 4 days. The sport is dying because its dying at grass roots level (in my old motor club it certainly has, other than 'historic' class, which tells you a lot about the state of rallying today)
I would argue the main problem is the ever increasing cost of clubman level motorsport due to safety and insurance issues. This combined with the general reduction in motorsport interest overall is leading to less entries and less events. There has been a big increase in interest in lanes/ targa rallies in my area. These are relatively cheap (£75 entry, road car) and to many have the feel of an old style road rally which has made them popular. You can still do stage rallies in modified cars and although expensive, lots of people still do.
I think the current WRC is great for what its meant to be, a spectator sport and no matter what changes about it I'll still be trying to compete at club level.
GravelBen said:
How long has it been since you actually watched WRC? The 2017-current cars are the most exciting WRC has been since the 90s, not just mental speed but plenty of noise and sideways action too.
I agree with you that the format is too one-size-forced-to-fit-all repetitive, and that more variety and connection to road cars would be good - but watching the current breed in action is really anything but dull.
As said, was at a RallyDay event, it wasn't an WRC event, but lots of various cars there. I sometimes catch WRC on the TV at the weekend, but each time I try and watch I get bored and turned off or end up watching classic rallying on YouTube.I agree with you that the format is too one-size-forced-to-fit-all repetitive, and that more variety and connection to road cars would be good - but watching the current breed in action is really anything but dull.
But if I'm honest:
1. I really don't care about the outright speed, the spectacle is far more important as a spectator
2. The current crop of cars all look too samey, too hard to tell apart, all sound the same and sadly they don't exactly sound good either
3. They may slide about, but because they all look the same and are built the same, they all end up sliding the same and looking like the same car. It ends up feeling like once you've seen one or two, you've seen them all. Days past the cars where different shapes, weights and sizes. And none drove the stages the same.
I'm not really wanting to knock WRC rallying, the engineering is superb and the drivers incredibly talented. I just don't find it enjoyable to watch anymore. Hill rallies, rallyraid and things like the BCCC are a lot more entertaining. As well as more grass roots vintage, classic and tarmac series.
aeropilot said:
Again, you're fixating on the spectator sport rather than it being about the people actually doing the bloody thing, as most people that don't or have never competed do, and ignoring the gulf that exists between club, national and international competitions which needs to narrow, just as it was back in the old Group 1,2 & 4 days.
The sport is dying because its dying at grass roots level (in my old motor club it certainly has, other than 'historic' class, which tells you a lot about the state of rallying today)
But the spectator element is essential at that level (you could argue that it's essential at most levels). Without spectators/TV viewers, where do the competitors/marshals/officials of the future come from? The WRC is the shop window of rallying, so spectators are a must.The sport is dying because its dying at grass roots level (in my old motor club it certainly has, other than 'historic' class, which tells you a lot about the state of rallying today)
I absolutely agree with you that the gulf between club, national and international is too great, but I think there are many problematic issues across the sport. Firstly, the "R" classes are flawed, due to factors like having to buy a complete kit to build a car, "Max" or "Evo" upgrades pumping the prices up and having such odd spacing between categories. The jump between R2 and R5 is ridiculous. There hasn't been enough focus on maintaining R3 as a stepping stone, while R4 is just entirely idiotic. I would like to have seen R4 as a refreshed Group N category, with lightly modified versions of the current crop of 4WD hot hatches. Something a bit more affordable but, instead, we have another category for expensive 4WD specials. All of the "R" cars are too expensive though, with no path of buying a basic car and upgrading it to move up the categories. There seems to be something of a disconnect in the ladder too. There are lots of people out there with big budgets, but the British Rally Championship is struggling for entries. It seems that some people are willing to spend huge money on running a WRC on national or even club events, but have no interest in stepping up to the BRC. I think the MSA maybe needs to better understand what is stopping people from wanting to move up and try to address those issues. While R5 has been a success, I do wonder if it's caused some damage by regional championships blocking the use of other car types to focus on R5.
Money is becoming a bit of an issue across the sport. The class system on most events is too vague, so the poor soul who can only afford a relatively basic car (me), is lumped in with people in £100k, sequential-gearboxed, throttle-bodied monsters, while the structure in the UK is also bias towards old cars, thanks to the minimum weight limits. A simple split in classes could solve some of the competitive issues. For example, for each 2WD class, split it so, cars with clicky boxes and non-standard intakes go in one group and H-pattern, standard inlet cars go in another. It just allows people with less budget to have a bit of competitive fun and more chance of a win. Back to the weight issue; for the sport to stay relevant and appeal to younger people, we need more modern cars, yet what incentive is there to compete in a modern car when a pre-1980 car can run so much lighter, yet still use modern running gear. There's little incentive for people to spend £50k on a used R3T, when they will be competing against a 340bhp, 850kg Escort. I hate the idea of penalising people, but I think it's time to start adding some weight to these older cars.
Sadly a lot of the problems in this area are compounded by attitude. While the rest of Europe (and the world) has moved on, embracing new cars as they come out, for some reason, the UK is stuck in a time warp. It's like the clock stopped for some people when the plug was pulled on Group B, or even before that in many cases. It's staggering how many people think that, unless it's RWD and normally aspirated, then it's wrong and shouldn't be allowed. God, the historic brigade seem to be losing their s
t because some turbocharged Group A cars are now eligible. Watch footage of rallies overseas and there is all sorts of stuff competing but, over here, 30% of most rally entries are still Escorts. We're clinging onto the past for dear life for some reason and it's strangling the sport in my view.I think there are some issues at an organisational/planning level too. The event held earlier in the year in Clacton was a massive step forward, but there are too many involved in the sport that want to only focus their efforts in the "safe" areas. When the BRC was relaunched a couple of years back, it was in Scotland, Wales, NI - the heartland of rallying. While we must continue to serve those areas, as they are the lifeblood, rallying must push into new areas if it wants to grow. I see so much resistance to trying to put the sport in front of people. Currently, it's hidden away in the middle of nowhere for the most part, while more and more club events seem to take place on private or MoD property, where no one can see it. The idea of spectators scares the living daylights out of many organisers (understandably in many ways) but, as I said earlier, without putting our sport in front of people, how can we ever hope to attract new people? The likes of the Motorsport News Circuit series and the Clacton rally are taking good positive steps to making the sport more accessible for fans (and potential "customers"), but I think the likes of the BRC need to do a better job of putting themselves in front of people. I think the MSA also needs to help clubs more with overcoming some of the PR issues surrounding the sport. There is too much burden on an already over-stretched group of volunteers.
I also think the grass roots entry to rallying needs an overhaul. Traditionally, we have relied on people joining their local motor club, then doing autotests, road rallies and then stage rallies. That, seemingly, used to work, but it doesn't anymore. The MSA-sanctioned car clubs are seen by those outside motorsport as being for old men with beards. They have little chance of attracting young petrolheads into their ranks. All the younger club members I know are only there because of a family or friendly connection with motorsport, and that doesn't seem very sustainable to me. I think it's time to stop focusing on autotest and road rally as a means of entry and move that focus to the track day market. The disconnect between track days (and racing for that matter) and rallying always staggers me. I see so many rally folk who dismiss racers as "roundy roundy" and track day lovers as oiks in Saxos. Anglesey have started running rally track days and these strike me as a great idea. A much better path to me would be to market rally track days to the regular track day crowd. Then, if you can tempt them into that arena, you can then work on getting them to maybe jump into the MSN series, then the forests or bigger events from there. Better engagement with other car clubs would help too, as would trying to have a club presence at as many track days/car shows etc as possible.
And that's before we even get onto how clubs and the authorities don't have a good enough online presence and don't make use of social media. In the good old days, you could rely to a greater extent on people seeking out their local car club. However, with so much stuff being so easily accessible to yoofs, I think clubs need to work much harder to get the message out there. Right now, I don't think we offer enough over drifting/track days etc. We need to ditch the beardy, old-fashioned stereotype and engage with new people to show how exciting and accessible rallying can be. Most other disciplines have their social media celebrities that are raising the profile of their sport/activity and driving interest. Rallying doesn't appear to have that. We're very good at promoting our activities to ourselves, but terrible at promoting them to the outside world.
Hopefully the rebrand of the MSA that's been announced this week and the positive impact David Richards has had since joining is a sign that things might change, but we'll have to see.
As you can probably tell though, I have spent a lot of time thinking about this
Edited by Jon_S_Rally on Tuesday 13th November 14:15
Jon_S_Rally said:
The thing is, if the WRC hadn't changed, it probably wouldn't exist at all. The old format was becoming unsustainable and manufacturers didn't want it anymore. Most rally fans would love to see long events, filled with homologation specials, but it just isn't going to happen. I am a massive fan of the Group A era. I would love if we could repeat it, but we can't. The current format is far from perfect, but I am just grateful that we, finally, have a series that is genuinely open and competitive, more so than it has been in years, decades even. And of course it's a spectator sport. If no one watched it, it wouldn't happen. Motorsport at the highest level has always been about publicity, even back to the likes of the XK120 mentioned in this article.
If you want to drive cars down the lanes in the middle of the night, you can still do that on road rallies. If you want to do stage events, it's still possible. You can even do WRC events if you have the money. Anyone can still put a helmet it on and try it. M-Sport will happily sell you a whole range of cars that you can compete in. Yes they're expensive, but let's not pretend that any old Joe could afford a Group 4 RS1800 either.
Outside of the WRC cars, I also think the "they don't look like road cars" argument is a bit thin. If you can't tell that a Fiesta R5 is a Fiesta, then you probably need a trip to the optician. Even the old Escorts and Chevettes were pretty far-removed from the cars you could buy in the showroom at the highest level. Also, how is an Escort or Chevette any less of a shopping car than a Fiesta or C3? I'm no fan of the modern class system; there's too much emphasis on 4WD, the cars are too expensive (especially the WRC cars) and there are no "proper" 2WD categories, but I think some are perhaps looking at "the good old days" through VERY rose-tinted spectacles.
Sadly though, as someone quite closely involved in the sport, the biggest problem isn't the cars, or the events, it's the attitude. Rallying is stuck in the past. It needs to let go of this obsession with past glories. The heritage of the sport is important, but it's also strangling it, because so many people don't seem to want to move with the times. Threads like this prove it.
The thing is. I have ZERO interest in watching a Fiesta. So the last thing I’d want to see is a funked up version with eff all in common to the production one and nothing remotely similar in the show room. If you want to drive cars down the lanes in the middle of the night, you can still do that on road rallies. If you want to do stage events, it's still possible. You can even do WRC events if you have the money. Anyone can still put a helmet it on and try it. M-Sport will happily sell you a whole range of cars that you can compete in. Yes they're expensive, but let's not pretend that any old Joe could afford a Group 4 RS1800 either.
Outside of the WRC cars, I also think the "they don't look like road cars" argument is a bit thin. If you can't tell that a Fiesta R5 is a Fiesta, then you probably need a trip to the optician. Even the old Escorts and Chevettes were pretty far-removed from the cars you could buy in the showroom at the highest level. Also, how is an Escort or Chevette any less of a shopping car than a Fiesta or C3? I'm no fan of the modern class system; there's too much emphasis on 4WD, the cars are too expensive (especially the WRC cars) and there are no "proper" 2WD categories, but I think some are perhaps looking at "the good old days" through VERY rose-tinted spectacles.
Sadly though, as someone quite closely involved in the sport, the biggest problem isn't the cars, or the events, it's the attitude. Rallying is stuck in the past. It needs to let go of this obsession with past glories. The heritage of the sport is important, but it's also strangling it, because so many people don't seem to want to move with the times. Threads like this prove it.
Edited by Jon_S_Rally on Tuesday 13th November 09:42
And they do all have the same shape. All of the cars. If they didn’t have different graphic schemes and badges on them. They would be hard to tell apart at 100 paces.
As for cost. WRC is effectively Group S isn’t it? Hugely expensive bespoke vehciles. I do not see how these are cheaper than using production based cars. Production cars will get some ROI from direct sales plus some R&D through the base model creation.
How many Impreza Turbos did Subaru sell through the 1990’s vs anything else in their range? I know the entire “classic” run they sold more than double the amount of turbos over na Imprezas. Despite the na being on sale longer in the U.K. market.
And you still see loads of these at every rally event in the car park. Apart from Subaru, who sells anything remotely rally car like these days as part of their range?
And it’s not just road going punters. The total lack of available cars has a knock on effect for club level and grass roots too. Where are all the Group N cars of old? People are still competing in 20 year old Evo’s and Imprezas. As there is nothing newer on offer or affordable.
300bhp/ton said:
The thing is. I have ZERO interest in watching a Fiesta. So the last thing I’d want to see is a funked up version with eff all in common to the production one and nothing remotely similar in the show room.
And they do all have the same shape. All of the cars. If they didn’t have different graphic schemes and badges on them. They would be hard to tell apart at 100 paces.
As for cost. WRC is effectively Group S isn’t it? Hugely expensive bespoke vehciles. I do not see how these are cheaper than using production based cars. Production cars will get some ROI from direct sales plus some R&D through the base model creation.
How many Impreza Turbos did Subaru sell through the 1990’s vs anything else in their range? I know the entire “classic” run they sold more than double the amount of turbos over na Imprezas. Despite the na being on sale longer in the U.K. market.
And you still see loads of these at every rally event in the car park. Apart from Subaru, who sells anything remotely rally car like these days as part of their range?
And it’s not just road going punters. The total lack of available cars has a knock on effect for club level and grass roots too. Where are all the Group N cars of old? People are still competing in 20 year old Evo’s and Imprezas. As there is nothing newer on offer or affordable.
What's the difference between a funked up Fiesta and a funked up Escort, or Subaru? Most rally cars have been based on "shopping cars" since the dawn of time. The Group B cars had sod all to do with anything you could buy in a showroom in reality. The handful of road cars were basically irrelevant as A) no normal person could afford them and B) they were still nothing like the rally car in reality. This whole argument feels like a bit of a red herring to me.And they do all have the same shape. All of the cars. If they didn’t have different graphic schemes and badges on them. They would be hard to tell apart at 100 paces.
As for cost. WRC is effectively Group S isn’t it? Hugely expensive bespoke vehciles. I do not see how these are cheaper than using production based cars. Production cars will get some ROI from direct sales plus some R&D through the base model creation.
How many Impreza Turbos did Subaru sell through the 1990’s vs anything else in their range? I know the entire “classic” run they sold more than double the amount of turbos over na Imprezas. Despite the na being on sale longer in the U.K. market.
And you still see loads of these at every rally event in the car park. Apart from Subaru, who sells anything remotely rally car like these days as part of their range?
And it’s not just road going punters. The total lack of available cars has a knock on effect for club level and grass roots too. Where are all the Group N cars of old? People are still competing in 20 year old Evo’s and Imprezas. As there is nothing newer on offer or affordable.
Two factors in the cars "all looking the same" (which I don't think they do). Firstly, most modern cars have morphed into very similar shapes, due to packaging and aero requirements. Secondly, once you add aero to a car, there will always be an optimal design for best performance (especially given how much aero knowledge has progressed), so there will always be some similarity of design. We can't expect manufacturers to fundamentally change the shape of their base cars just to suit people who want different shaped rally cars. It's totally unrealistic.
On the cost point, I agree, in that I think the current WRC cars are unsustainable, but I'm not sure homologated road cars are the answer. Where did we end up in the 90s? The WRC regs were introduced in order to attract manufacturers, because most didn't want to produce 4WD homologation specials anymore, as they were expensive to make and didn't generally sell in great numbers. If those regs hadn't been brought in, we'd have ended up with a Subaru vs. Mitsubishi series, and how long would that have lasted? You're right that Subaru are the only one to still sell anything of that ilk but, let's face it, it's a flawed car now and has long been left behind by the opposition.
You could argue that now, with the advent of a new range of 4WD performance cars (Golf R etc), that we could maybe move closer to the homologation special again by returning to C-segment cars, but you'd effectively lose all of the current manufacturers and have to encourage VW, Audi, Mercedes and others to come into the sport - that's a seriously risky strategy given the lack of value the WRC offers to manufacturers. The other dimension to that is, if you then make them much closer to their production roots, you're likely to have a really negative impact on the sport. To go from be-winged, 380bhp monsters, to slower, standard looking cars is likely to turn a lot of people off the sport, as the spectacle would be gone in many people's eyes. Even if you started with something like a Golf R, you would still need to add big wings and vastly different running gear in reality.
You are right on the lack of 4WD cars for people lower down the ladder and this is where I think our opinions cross, as I think this could be solved with the introduction of a proper production 4WD category for the C-segment cars mentioned above. I'd love to see a Group N Golf R/Focus RS/S3/A35 AMG etc. However, as I said previously, I think this would be better suited to a sub-category than the main event. Group N cars have never really been seen as that exciting, so it's too much of a risk to make them the top category in my eyes.
Edited by Jon_S_Rally on Wednesday 14th November 10:55
When we had just Citroen v M-Sport Ford about 8 years ago I thought the FiA should have investigated going radical/ revolutionary; and changing the type of cars used for WRC. But, that would never happen - the WRC is a series for production based family hatches.
However, what they need to do is sort out the current R-GT regs; a class of car that could be real crowd pleasers; the WRC equivalent of GTE-Pro in the WEC. Imagine ten to fifteen 911, A110, 124 Spider, etc On a current WRC event you get the WRCs, then the R5s, then the small FWD R2s......Ideally, you'd put the many R-GTs in with the R5s.....
As for the sport in the UK, where do you start? Hopefully, DR, who has made a decent start, can drag the sport into the 2000s - and out of the 70s.
However, what they need to do is sort out the current R-GT regs; a class of car that could be real crowd pleasers; the WRC equivalent of GTE-Pro in the WEC. Imagine ten to fifteen 911, A110, 124 Spider, etc On a current WRC event you get the WRCs, then the R5s, then the small FWD R2s......Ideally, you'd put the many R-GTs in with the R5s.....
As for the sport in the UK, where do you start? Hopefully, DR, who has made a decent start, can drag the sport into the 2000s - and out of the 70s.
300bhp/ton said:
The Renault was 4wd which was the other part of the comment.
ProCo2020 said:
Renault 5 was 2WD, mid engine RWD.
What he said ^^300bhp/ton said:
All the cars look and sound the same.
Do they really though?? whilst I admit the sounds are similar they are by no means indistinguishable from each other. 
I'm not a fan of Touring Cars but I can easily distinguish the civic from the Alfa and Astra.
RallyDay for all its bonuses just cant replicate what the true current breed of WRC can do on short parade/time attack laps.
300bhp/ton said:
The thing is. I have ZERO interest in watching a Fiesta. So the last thing I’d want to see is a funked up version with eff all in common to the production one and nothing remotely similar in the show room.
What current top flight racing series can you walk into a showroom and buy the car you saw battering round a track the day before??This hasn't been the case since the early 90's has it, even then they were simply silhouettes.
Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday hasn't been the case since the very early 80's.
the closest you get that I know of is the R1,R2 Fiesta/DS3 etc
Jon & Arnage have brought some fantastic points up. Modern Rallying is stuck in the past. the attempted rejuvination of the BRC didnt go as planned, first they limited it to FWD turbo rally cars, everyone complained it was boring to watch. So they upped it to R5 cars and now events are cancelling as the competitors cant afford to run an R5 car, so the organisers cancel as the cost of running a forest stage are bonkers and getting worse. which is driving events closer to having single venue events.
The rally scene has tried to open up events by having the Circuit championship but apparently this isn't proper rallying either
#I'm not even sure anyone knows what "proper rallying is anymore"
ArnageWRC said:
When we had just Citroen v M-Sport Ford about 8 years ago I thought the FiA should have investigated going radical/ revolutionary; and changing the type of cars used for WRC. But, that would never happen - the WRC is a series for production based family hatches.
However, what they need to do is sort out the current R-GT regs; a class of car that could be real crowd pleasers; the WRC equivalent of GTE-Pro in the WEC. Imagine ten to fifteen 911, A110, 124 Spider, etc On a current WRC event you get the WRCs, then the R5s, then the small FWD R2s......Ideally, you'd put the many R-GTs in with the R5s.....
As for the sport in the UK, where do you start? Hopefully, DR, who has made a decent start, can drag the sport into the 2000s - and out of the 70s.
It does seem strange that the FIA seem a bit frightened of R-GT. GT-type cars have proven real crowd-pleasers in Belgium/Holland. It would seem logical to try and cash-in on that by pushing that category a bit more. Saying that, I guess it must be frustrating for prospective owners, because they're blinkin' expensive and hamstrung by the power/weight regs. Would be totally hammered by an R5 on gravel too. Would be great on the tarmac rounds though, not that we have nearly enough of those.However, what they need to do is sort out the current R-GT regs; a class of car that could be real crowd pleasers; the WRC equivalent of GTE-Pro in the WEC. Imagine ten to fifteen 911, A110, 124 Spider, etc On a current WRC event you get the WRCs, then the R5s, then the small FWD R2s......Ideally, you'd put the many R-GTs in with the R5s.....
As for the sport in the UK, where do you start? Hopefully, DR, who has made a decent start, can drag the sport into the 2000s - and out of the 70s.
I never understood why the 124 ended up as an R-GT. It would have been far better suited to R3, but the FIA seem to have let the class die a death, leaving the obscene gap between R2 and R5.
RyanTank said:
What current top flight racing series can you walk into a showroom and buy the car you saw battering round a track the day before??
This hasn't been the case since the early 90's has it, even then they were simply silhouettes.
Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday hasn't been the case since the very early 80's.
the closest you get that I know of is the R1,R2 Fiesta/DS3 etc
Jon & Arnage have brought some fantastic points up. Modern Rallying is stuck in the past. the attempted rejuvination of the BRC didnt go as planned, first they limited it to FWD turbo rally cars, everyone complained it was boring to watch. So they upped it to R5 cars and now events are cancelling as the competitors cant afford to run an R5 car, so the organisers cancel as the cost of running a forest stage are bonkers and getting worse. which is driving events closer to having single venue events.
The rally scene has tried to open up events by having the Circuit championship but apparently this isn't proper rallying either#
I'm not even sure anyone knows what "proper rallying is anymore"
The BRC is in a really difficult position, especially with the need to use homologated cars. As I said in one of my previous posts, we're in this weird position where we have people with huge sums of money to spend, but they would rather spend it on an old Escort, or on running an older WRC car on lower level events. I don't know if they see something wrong in the events, or if they can't get excited about R5 cars, but it seems to be a struggle to get people switched on to the BRC. It's strange, because the R5 formula seems to work pretty well in other country's halo championships. Does make me wonder if our biggest problem is our attitude, rather than the cars or rallies on offer.This hasn't been the case since the early 90's has it, even then they were simply silhouettes.
Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday hasn't been the case since the very early 80's.
the closest you get that I know of is the R1,R2 Fiesta/DS3 etc
Jon & Arnage have brought some fantastic points up. Modern Rallying is stuck in the past. the attempted rejuvination of the BRC didnt go as planned, first they limited it to FWD turbo rally cars, everyone complained it was boring to watch. So they upped it to R5 cars and now events are cancelling as the competitors cant afford to run an R5 car, so the organisers cancel as the cost of running a forest stage are bonkers and getting worse. which is driving events closer to having single venue events.
The rally scene has tried to open up events by having the Circuit championship but apparently this isn't proper rallying either
#I'm not even sure anyone knows what "proper rallying is anymore"
The sport in the UK will be in trouble for as long as people think that anything outside a BDG Escort in a Welsh forest isn't "proper rallying" and it's staggering how many still think that. Our resistance to modern cars, to FWD, to 4WD, to turbocharging, all of it is strangling rallying unfortunately.
RyanTank said:
300bhp/ton said:
All the cars look and sound the same.
Do they really though?? whilst I admit the sounds are similar they are by no means indistinguishable from each other. 
Plus they are just ugly looking things too.
RyanTank said:
I'm not a fan of Touring Cars but I can easily distinguish the civic from the Alfa and Astra.
RallyDay for all its bonuses just cant replicate what the true current breed of WRC can do on short parade/time attack laps.
This hasn't been the case since the early 90's has it, even then they were simply silhouettes.
Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday hasn't been the case since the very early 80's.
Yes and this is part of a much wider problem IMO. But rally particularly, because it has always been far more grass roots, than most others.RallyDay for all its bonuses just cant replicate what the true current breed of WRC can do on short parade/time attack laps.
300bhp/ton said:
The thing is. I have ZERO interest in watching a Fiesta. So the last thing I’d want to see is a funked up version with eff all in common to the production one and nothing remotely similar in the show room.
What current top flight racing series can you walk into a showroom and buy the car you saw battering round a track the day before??This hasn't been the case since the early 90's has it, even then they were simply silhouettes.
Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday hasn't been the case since the very early 80's.
RyanTank said:
Jon & Arnage have brought some fantastic points up. Modern Rallying is stuck in the past. the attempted rejuvination of the BRC didnt go as planned, first they limited it to FWD turbo rally cars, everyone complained it was boring to watch. So they upped it to R5 cars and now events are cancelling as the competitors cant afford to run an R5 car, so the organisers cancel as the cost of running a forest stage are bonkers and getting worse. which is driving events closer to having single venue events.
The rally scene has tried to open up events by having the Circuit championship but apparently this isn't proper rallying either#
I'm not even sure anyone knows what "proper rallying is anymore"
I attend Goodwood and often Brands for the winter circuit events. The rally scene has tried to open up events by having the Circuit championship but apparently this isn't proper rallying either
#I'm not even sure anyone knows what "proper rallying is anymore"
My opinion is, they need to step away from it being a "formula" and just allow teams to run whatever. Open the rule book up and allow some imagination. If they have to stick with production cars this will stop it getting silly. If car makers don't want to build 4wd cars, then they could have a 2wd class. But again I have little to no interest in wanting to see a FWD turbo car. I'd much rather see something like this Jag, a GT86 or the Aston rally car.
I might not be able to afford one of these, but it is hugely more interesting to watch than the current WRC cars.
300bhp/ton said:
I think that pics proves my point very well. The Ford and Toyota are almost 100% the same
Perhaps an eye test is required if you think they look almost 100% identical 
even my non motorsport interested wife could list the basic differences when asked if the Yaris and Fiesta looked the same. 300bhp/ton said:
My opinion is, they need to step away from it being a "formula" and just allow teams to run whatever. Open the rule book up and allow some imagination. If they have to stick with production cars this will stop it getting silly. If car makers don't want to build 4wd cars, then they could have a 2wd class. But again I have little to no interest in wanting to see a FWD turbo car. I'd much rather see something like this Jag, a GT86 or the Aston rally car.
So basically bringing Group B back? Rally Prep have tried to make a GT86 rally car, seems no one wants it, least not in this country. And there simply isn’t enough of a market for Jag or Aston to launch full development and build programme to take their cars rallying. Their core clientele would rather watch track events from grandstands and corporate boxes than stand out in a soggy field for a glimps of a rally car.
Returning to production based will just flood the field with fwd shopping hatches. It won’t incentivise Subaru or Mitsubishi to start remaking the Impreza or Evo, or convince Ford/Citroen/Toyota to make 4wd Fiesta/C3/Yaris’ as there isn’t a big enough market for them either or we’d have had them by now!?
What Jon said about the state of rallying and the refusal to acknowledge anything other than an Escort as “real rallying” is leaving us in the dust of European series’. The vast variety of cars running in places like Belgium is outstanding because they’ve embraced change and the anything will work as a rally car attitude and it just works.
Over here rotten Pug 205’s & Escorts are changing hands for bonkers prices for no other reasons than people think these are the only cars you can use to get into rallying without a blank cheque. And that’s down to an air of snobbishness of the rallying faithful and he powers that be. Banning cars like Andy Burtons PugCosworth was the first nail in the coffin for British Rallying imho.
300bhp/ton said:
I think that pics proves my point very well. The Ford and Toyota are almost 100% the same shape and they all have the basic same outline and wing profile. If you didn't know which colours belonged to which team it would be really difficult to tell which one is which at a side on glance. In fact the bottom two pics could be the same car from different angles.... they aren't (because I went and checked), but they look similar enough that they could be.
Plus they are just ugly looking things too.
Sorry, but I think it might be time for a visit to Specsavers Plus they are just ugly looking things too.
That's like saying all super cars look the same, or that all GTE cars at Le Mans look the same. RyanTank said:
So basically bringing Group B back?
Rally Prep have tried to make a GT86 rally car, seems no one wants it, least not in this country. And there simply isn’t enough of a market for Jag or Aston to launch full development and build programme to take their cars rallying. Their core clientele would rather watch track events from grandstands and corporate boxes than stand out in a soggy field for a glimps of a rally car.
Returning to production based will just flood the field with fwd shopping hatches. It won’t incentivise Subaru or Mitsubishi to start remaking the Impreza or Evo, or convince Ford/Citroen/Toyota to make 4wd Fiesta/C3/Yaris’ as there isn’t a big enough market for them either or we’d have had them by now!?
What Jon said about the state of rallying and the refusal to acknowledge anything other than an Escort as “real rallying” is leaving us in the dust of European series’. The vast variety of cars running in places like Belgium is outstanding because they’ve embraced change and the anything will work as a rally car attitude and it just works.
Over here rotten Pug 205’s & Escorts are changing hands for bonkers prices for no other reasons than people think these are the only cars you can use to get into rallying without a blank cheque. And that’s down to an air of snobbishness of the rallying faithful and he powers that be. Banning cars like Andy Burtons PugCosworth was the first nail in the coffin for British Rallying imho.
A lot of sense in the above, especially the last couple of paras. When Group B ended, the rest of Europe embraced Group A, from the top level 4WD stuff, to the smaller, FWD hot hatches. In the UK, we stamped our feet and went back to rallying Escorts and have barely moved on since.Rally Prep have tried to make a GT86 rally car, seems no one wants it, least not in this country. And there simply isn’t enough of a market for Jag or Aston to launch full development and build programme to take their cars rallying. Their core clientele would rather watch track events from grandstands and corporate boxes than stand out in a soggy field for a glimps of a rally car.
Returning to production based will just flood the field with fwd shopping hatches. It won’t incentivise Subaru or Mitsubishi to start remaking the Impreza or Evo, or convince Ford/Citroen/Toyota to make 4wd Fiesta/C3/Yaris’ as there isn’t a big enough market for them either or we’d have had them by now!?
What Jon said about the state of rallying and the refusal to acknowledge anything other than an Escort as “real rallying” is leaving us in the dust of European series’. The vast variety of cars running in places like Belgium is outstanding because they’ve embraced change and the anything will work as a rally car attitude and it just works.
Over here rotten Pug 205’s & Escorts are changing hands for bonkers prices for no other reasons than people think these are the only cars you can use to get into rallying without a blank cheque. And that’s down to an air of snobbishness of the rallying faithful and he powers that be. Banning cars like Andy Burtons PugCosworth was the first nail in the coffin for British Rallying imho.
RyanTank said:
Perhaps an eye test is required if you think they look almost 100% identical even my non motorsport interested wife could list the basic differences when asked if the Yaris and Fiesta looked the same.
Have to say I'm amazed that you don't think they look similar. even my non motorsport interested wife could list the basic differences when asked if the Yaris and Fiesta looked the same. Sorry these are a bit crappy, wrong tools and not enough time. But I've created a silhouette of two of the cars. No BS, I've not tried to alter them, just a quick crappy edit to get the outline profile.
Are you seriously saying they don't look similar? Can you even tell which ones they are? Fair play if you can, but to me they are very similar shaped.
RyanTank said:
So basically bringing Group B back?
Not really, I personally preferred the Group A regs and the Group 4.RyanTank said:
Rally Prep have tried to make a GT86 rally car, seems no one wants it, least not in this country. And there simply isn’t enough of a market for Jag or Aston to launch full development and build programme to take their cars rallying.
I don't think it's about market or nobody wants them. There simply isn't anywhere for the compete or enter for the most part. Lets face it, how many Pugs or Citroens were sold as a direct result of their rallying over the past 15-18 years? I suspect few to none. Hardly a "market", but it's still good publicity overall and likely comes with certain tax benefits for promotional activities.RyanTank said:
Returning to production based will just flood the field with fwd shopping hatches. It won’t incentivise Subaru or Mitsubishi to start remaking the Impreza or Evo, or convince Ford/Citroen/Toyota to make 4wd Fiesta/C3/Yaris’ as there isn’t a big enough market for them either or we’d have had them by now!?
What Jon said about the state of rallying and the refusal to acknowledge anything other than an Escort as “real rallying” is leaving us in the dust of European series’. The vast variety of cars running in places like Belgium is outstanding because they’ve embraced change and the anything will work as a rally car attitude and it just works.
Over here rotten Pug 205’s & Escorts are changing hands for bonkers prices for no other reasons than people think these are the only cars you can use to get into rallying without a blank cheque. And that’s down to an air of snobbishness of the rallying faithful and he powers that be. Banning cars like Andy Burtons PugCosworth was the first nail in the coffin for British Rallying imho.
I'm not saying it has to be a MK2 Escort, far from it. Sadly there are far too many Escorts in classics/historic rallying, but that is a different topic altogether. What Jon said about the state of rallying and the refusal to acknowledge anything other than an Escort as “real rallying” is leaving us in the dust of European series’. The vast variety of cars running in places like Belgium is outstanding because they’ve embraced change and the anything will work as a rally car attitude and it just works.
Over here rotten Pug 205’s & Escorts are changing hands for bonkers prices for no other reasons than people think these are the only cars you can use to get into rallying without a blank cheque. And that’s down to an air of snobbishness of the rallying faithful and he powers that be. Banning cars like Andy Burtons PugCosworth was the first nail in the coffin for British Rallying imho.
Lots of cars could make interesting rally cars, but they should be forced along the lines of proper production cars more than limited specials. I think it would overall make for a far more interesting and popular spectacle.
300bhp/ton said:
Have to say I'm amazed that you don't think they look similar.
Fiesta top, more upright A pillar and rounder roofline. Yaris bottom, squatter A pillar and flat roof.
Perhaps it’s easier for me to see the difference in your comparison as I follow the sport, but I could still list more of the differences even in your outline edit. To save this dragging on let’s agree to disagree and put it down to following and not following the sport?
300bhp/ton said:
I don't think it's about market or nobody wants them. There simply isn't anywhere for the compete or enter for the most part.
Plenty of places to run them, we have a great tarmac series here in the UK, or better yet the circuit championship! But in a series where people are putting more into Escorts than it costs for a full fat ex works Impreza etc, people are less likely to drop wads on an Aston/Porsche Gt3 just to be spanked by a 40yr old ford! Which loops back round to my no market for it comment. 300bhp/ton said:
Lots of cars could make interesting rally cars, but they should be forced along the lines of proper production cars more than limited specials. I think it would overall make for a far more interesting and popular spectacle.
The current crop are based on current production cars?? Or am I confused what your meaning here??Good luck forcing a manufacturer to do anything too!
So besides the Aston, what other cars would suffice?
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