RE: Going going Ghosn

[Exige77]

jamoor said:

PZR said:

Burwood said:

I applaud this move. He was being treated like an animal and he had no chance of a fair trial.

Like an animal? Really...?

It's worth bearing in mind that Ghosn has had a team of lawyers and - significantly - PR people working for him since his initial arrest. The PR people have been busy, and much of what you read about all this in English and French has roots connected with the output of his PR people.

I don't see Ghosn as the heroic 'fugitive from injustice' that his PR people are painting him.

Does anyone actually know the truth?

That’s what a fair trial would be for but sadly impossible in this case with the draconian Japanese legal process.

[Supercilious Sid]

Wills2 said:

No it's about it being a bit cold.....just make sure the restaurant accepts visits from gaijin.

Very good.

[unsprung]

DeltonaS said:

Ghosn with the wind.

[fido]

Why did the authorities leave him with a spare passport? Seems like a bit of an oversight. Is seems like they gave him a way out and are just happy to get him out of the way - Nissan goes back to Japanese ownership and the judiciary don't have to carry on with the whole embarassing saga.

[unsprung]

In Japan, some have posited that Ghosn must have had the assistance of quite a capable organisation.

Have we broached yet the topic of intelligence services?

Would it be, for example, in the interests of France to "allow" a team of private-sector operatives to come together for this operation --- to put an end to the festering drama?

Ghosn was reported as entering Lebanon "on a valid French passport", yet the Japanese have no record of Ghosn documentation at the border control of Osaka airport.

[Burwood]

jamoor said:

PZR said:

Burwood said:

I applaud this move. He was being treated like an animal and he had no chance of a fair trial.

Like an animal? Really...?

It's worth bearing in mind that Ghosn has had a team of lawyers and - significantly - PR people working for him since his initial arrest. The PR people have been busy, and much of what you read about all this in English and French has roots connected with the output of his PR people.

I don't see Ghosn as the heroic 'fugitive from injustice' that his PR people are painting him.

Does anyone actually know the truth?

We know he was locked up for 114 days when any normal system would allow bail. He didn't murder anyone. He was in a tiny cell and interrogated round the clock in an attempt to coerce an admission, was deprived of sleep and access to lawyers. barred from even talking to to his family. He was denied access to much of the so called evidence. The entire thing is a farce. Only two arrests were made, both Westerners. Japan have plenty of form when it comes to stitching up Western CEO's.

I wouldn't be surprised if help came from a Government level in regards his escape.

Edited by Burwood on Friday 3rd January 17:00

[Burwood]

unsprung said:

In Japan, some have posited that Ghosn must have had the assistance of quite a capable organisation.

Have we broached yet the topic of intelligence services?

Would it be, for example, in the interests of France to "allow" a team of private-sector operatives to come together for this operation --- to put an end to the festering drama?

Ghosn was reported as entering Lebanon "on a valid French passport", yet the Japanese have no record of Ghosn documentation at the border control of Osaka airport.

The Lebanese consider Ghosn a national hero. He could have walked in without documents. Of course they will claim he entered legally. He met regularly with their Diplomats in Japan.

[ChocolateFrog]

You have one life. He has the means to through money and influence to extricate himself from the situation.

Hats off to him, I'd do the same.

[PZR]

fido said:

Why did the authorities leave him with a spare passport? Seems like a bit of an oversight. Is seems like they gave him a way out and are just happy to get him out of the way - Nissan goes back to Japanese ownership and the judiciary don't have to carry on with the whole embarassing saga.

One of his French passports (apparently he was allowed to have a duplicate) was entrusted to his legal team, kept in a locked briefcase, in compliance with a requirement to have it available when demanded for identification by relevant authorities. One of his obligations as a non-Japanese, in Japan, and on Police bail. The same bail terms which he chose not to comply with, and has forfeited a huge sum as a consequence. He has also betrayed his Japanese legal team.

Interesting that you should think this was an "embarrassing saga" for the Japanese judiciary. The other side of that coin is that it might have been rather more embarrassing for Ghosn and his family once the full evidence against him was revealed. Just three months ago Ghosn had paid $1m to the USA's Securities and Exchange Commission to settle a fraud case brought against him. Ghosn was banned from holding any senior position in a US company for ten years.

[PZR]

Burwood said:

We know he was locked up for 114 days when any normal system would allow bail. He didn't murder anyone. He was in a tiny cell and interrogated round the clock in an attempt to coerce an admission, was deprived of sleep and access to lawyers. barred from even talking to to his family. He was denied access to much of the so called evidence. The entire thing is a farce. Only two arrests were made, both Westerners. Japan have plenty of form when it comes to stitching up Western CEO's.

An example of his "tiny cell" at the Katsushika Detention Centre:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/06/11/natio...

[fido]

PZR said:

Just three months ago Ghosn had paid $1m to the USA's Securities and Exchange Commission to settle a fraud case brought against him. Ghosn was banned from holding any senior position in a US company for ten years.

And Nissan paid the other $15 million. I'm not saying he was sqeaky clean but neither was anyone else. Difference is that he didn't get to resign gracefully. It's a really poor reflection of corporate governance - he just happened to be a bigger fish.

Edited by fido on Friday 3rd January 18:07

[Burwood]

PZR said:

Burwood said:

We know he was locked up for 114 days when any normal system would allow bail. He didn't murder anyone. He was in a tiny cell and interrogated round the clock in an attempt to coerce an admission, was deprived of sleep and access to lawyers. barred from even talking to to his family. He was denied access to much of the so called evidence. The entire thing is a farce. Only two arrests were made, both Westerners. Japan have plenty of form when it comes to stitching up Western CEO's.

An example of his "tiny cell" at the Katsushika Detention Centre:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/06/11/natio...

That is not the floorpan of his cell.

[PZR]

Burwood said:

PZR said:

Burwood said:

We know he was locked up for 114 days when any normal system would allow bail. He didn't murder anyone. He was in a tiny cell and interrogated round the clock in an attempt to coerce an admission, was deprived of sleep and access to lawyers. barred from even talking to to his family. He was denied access to much of the so called evidence. The entire thing is a farce. Only two arrests were made, both Westerners. Japan have plenty of form when it comes to stitching up Western CEO's.

An example of his "tiny cell" at the Katsushika Detention Centre:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/06/11/natio...

That is not the floorpan of his cell.

Have you got the Ghosn PR team version?

[Burwood]

PZR said:

Burwood said:

PZR said:

Burwood said:

We know he was locked up for 114 days when any normal system would allow bail. He didn't murder anyone. He was in a tiny cell and interrogated round the clock in an attempt to coerce an admission, was deprived of sleep and access to lawyers. barred from even talking to to his family. He was denied access to much of the so called evidence. The entire thing is a farce. Only two arrests were made, both Westerners. Japan have plenty of form when it comes to stitching up Western CEO's.

An example of his "tiny cell" at the Katsushika Detention Centre:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/06/11/natio...

That is not the floorpan of his cell.

Have you got the Ghosn PR team version?

Are you going to believe the Japanese.

[PZR]

Burwood said:

PZR said:

Burwood said:

PZR said:

Burwood said:

We know he was locked up for 114 days when any normal system would allow bail. He didn't murder anyone. He was in a tiny cell and interrogated round the clock in an attempt to coerce an admission, was deprived of sleep and access to lawyers. barred from even talking to to his family. He was denied access to much of the so called evidence. The entire thing is a farce. Only two arrests were made, both Westerners. Japan have plenty of form when it comes to stitching up Western CEO's.

An example of his "tiny cell" at the Katsushika Detention Centre:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/06/11/natio...

That is not the floorpan of his cell.

Have you got the Ghosn PR team version?

Are you going to believe the Japanese.

Are you talking about all of them, or just some of them in particular?

The thing is, I wouldn't trust a single word coming out of Team Ghosn's camp.

[nickfrog]

PZR said:

Are you talking about all of them, or just some of them in particular?

The thing is, I wouldn't trust a single word coming out of Team Ghosn's camp.

Why not? It's entirely possible that his basic rights, including the presumption of innocence, are being ignored by the judiciary. And if that's the case why wouldn't the PR team make that public?

[PZR]

nickfrog said:

PZR said:

Are you talking about all of them, or just some of them in particular?

The thing is, I wouldn't trust a single word coming out of Team Ghosn's camp.

Why not? It's entirely possible that his basic rights, including the presumption of innocence, are being ignored by the judiciary. And if that's the case why wouldn't the PR team make that public?

Looking at it all from the Japanese side, it's clear that there's been a certain amount of exaggeration going on from Team Ghosn. And - personally speaking - I don't think that engaging the services of a PR team is all that compatible with the idea of a 'fair trial'.

As I pointed out up-thread, much of what we are reading about all this in the English and French languages has come - in one way or another - from the Ghosn camp. I noted mention in the press of Ghosn "not being allowed to speak to his wife over Christmas" as being "the last straw" for him. If that's the case, then his plan came together very quickly didn't it? I think it's another example of PR tattle. The whole issue with Ghosn's wife is that she was suspected of activities to help cover Ghosn's tracks abroad, so it is perhaps not that unusual for the Japanese investigators to try to restrict their communication to methods that could be closely watched.

Yes, we may not see Japan's Police and Justice system as being ideal (understatement), but it doesn't mean that Ghosn is "entirely innocent" as he claims. This is an enormously complicated and difficult case for the Japanese investigators to unravel and evidence is spread out across the whole of Ghosn's world. And it IS global.

[Exige77]

PZR said:

nickfrog said:

PZR said:

Are you talking about all of them, or just some of them in particular?

The thing is, I wouldn't trust a single word coming out of Team Ghosn's camp.

Why not? It's entirely possible that his basic rights, including the presumption of innocence, are being ignored by the judiciary. And if that's the case why wouldn't the PR team make that public?

Looking at it all from the Japanese side, it's clear that there's been a certain amount of exaggeration going on from Team Ghosn. And - personally speaking - I don't think that engaging the services of a PR team is all that compatible with the idea of a 'fair trial'.

As I pointed out up-thread, much of what we are reading about all this in the English and French languages has come - in one way or another - from the Ghosn camp. I noted mention in the press of Ghosn "not being allowed to speak to his wife over Christmas" as being "the last straw" for him. If that's the case, then his plan came together very quickly didn't it? I think it's another example of PR tattle. The whole issue with Ghosn's wife is that she was suspected of activities to help cover Ghosn's tracks abroad, so it is perhaps not that unusual for the Japanese investigators to try to restrict their communication to methods that could be closely watched.

Yes, we may not see Japan's Police and Justice system as being ideal (understatement), but it doesn't mean that Ghosn is "entirely innocent" as he claims. This is an enormously complicated and difficult case for the Japanese investigators to unravel and evidence is spread out across the whole of Ghosn's world. And it IS global.

Sounds like you have an axe to grind here ?

[PZR]

Exige77 said:

Sounds like you have an axe to grind here ?

Upthread you were applauding Ghosn's actions, so you have a position. I also noticed you calling "snoflake" on people who were disapproving of the terms 'Jap' and 'Nip' being used on this thread.

Question: Have you ever met Ghosn?

[Voxy]

Exige77 said:

PZR said:

nickfrog said:

PZR said:

Are you talking about all of them, or just some of them in particular?

The thing is, I wouldn't trust a single word coming out of Team Ghosn's camp.

Why not? It's entirely possible that his basic rights, including the presumption of innocence, are being ignored by the judiciary. And if that's the case why wouldn't the PR team make that public?

Looking at it all from the Japanese side, it's clear that there's been a certain amount of exaggeration going on from Team Ghosn. And - personally speaking - I don't think that engaging the services of a PR team is all that compatible with the idea of a 'fair trial'.

As I pointed out up-thread, much of what we are reading about all this in the English and French languages has come - in one way or another - from the Ghosn camp. I noted mention in the press of Ghosn "not being allowed to speak to his wife over Christmas" as being "the last straw" for him. If that's the case, then his plan came together very quickly didn't it? I think it's another example of PR tattle. The whole issue with Ghosn's wife is that she was suspected of activities to help cover Ghosn's tracks abroad, so it is perhaps not that unusual for the Japanese investigators to try to restrict their communication to methods that could be closely watched.

Yes, we may not see Japan's Police and Justice system as being ideal (understatement), but it doesn't mean that Ghosn is "entirely innocent" as he claims. This is an enormously complicated and difficult case for the Japanese investigators to unravel and evidence is spread out across the whole of Ghosn's world. And it IS global.

Sounds like you have an axe to grind here ?

I think it’s a valid comment - there is definitely spin coming both sides.

Irrespective, anyone, like me, who has lived in Japan for any length of time knows that you don’t want to end up on the wrong side of the law here. I’ve know people locked-up for 3 weeks and then deported for “crimes” that wouldn’t even get a warning at home.

But it’s Japanese law, so whilst I may not agree with all aspects of it, and in particular have issues with the way it operates, for as long as I live in Japan I will make sure I abide by it.

At the very minimum, Ghosn is foolish to have not stayed cleaner than clean.