RE: Going going Ghosn
Discussion
PZR said:
Exige77 said:
Sounds like you have an axe to grind here ?
Upthread you were applauding Ghosn's actions, so you have a position. I also noticed you calling "snoflake" on people who were disapproving of the terms 'Jap' and 'Nip' being used on this thread. Question: Have you ever met Ghosn?
I’m just commenting on a current news item like many others.
You appear to have some sort of issue with this ?
Just for clarity, I have no issue with being referred to as a Brit, Pom, Roast Beef by our overseas friends.
PZR said:
Yes, we may not see Japan's Police and Justice system as being ideal (understatement), but it doesn't mean that Ghosn is "entirely innocent" as he claims.
Of course he is entirely innocent until proven guilty. The presumption of innocence is a fundamental principle that you may not agree with but it's also part of getting a fair trial. The fact that the PR team quite rightly highlights this glaringly obvious flaw doesn't make them liars, does it? I have no idea about the guy's innocence or guilt but faced with the risk of an unfair trial, I would bugger off too if I could. Innocent or not. PR or not. nickfrog said:
PZR said:
Yes, we may not see Japan's Police and Justice system as being ideal (understatement), but it doesn't mean that Ghosn is "entirely innocent" as he claims.
Of course he is entirely innocent until proven guilty. The presumption of innocence is a fundamental principle that you may not agree with but it's also part of getting a fair trial. The fact that the PR team quite rightly highlights this glaringly obvious flaw doesn't make them liars, does it? I have no idea about the guy's innocence or guilt but faced with the risk of an unfair trial, I would bugger off too if I could. Innocent or not. PR or not. The FT takes a step back to consider the colourful history of exec's who've done a runner.
. . . Countries popular with business fugitives also tend to be helpfully sanguine over allegations of financial impropriety.
. . . Business people who are in hot water have a habit of disappearing. Pretending to be dead is one refinement, usefully sapping the resolve of would-be pursuers.
. . . It later emerged he was a Communist spy. This came as a terrible shock to the British establishment as he had not even attended Cambridge university.
To read the article, google one of the sentences above. Then click on the link returned for the FT. Conversely, if you click directly on the link below, the article is likely to appear behind a paywall.
https://www.ft.com/content/d63d2d2a-2bd2-11ea-bc77...
nickfrog said:
PZR said:
Yes, we may not see Japan's Police and Justice system as being ideal (understatement), but it doesn't mean that Ghosn is "entirely innocent" as he claims.
Of course he is entirely innocent until proven guilty. The presumption of innocence is a fundamental principle that you may not agree with but it's also part of getting a fair trial. The fact that the PR team quite rightly highlights this glaringly obvious flaw doesn't make them liars, does it? I have no idea about the guy's innocence or guilt but faced with the risk of an unfair trial, I would bugger off too if I could. Innocent or not. PR or not. But how about now? Is Ghosn guilty of breaking his bail conditions and leaving Japan illegally, or is he innocent of that until proven guilty too?
Fast Bug said:
Have you? I haven't, but knew a few people that had and said he was quite an engaging chap.
I'd be interested to know your thoughts if you've met him
I think not my cup of tea covers it. Could say the same about some of the people who became his acolytes in Japan. I'd be interested to know your thoughts if you've met him
I'd like to see car guys heading car companies, but the world's not like that any more is it?
Ghosn: "This was the most difficult decision of my life, but let us not forget that I was facing a system where the conviction rate is 99.4 per cent and I will bet you this number is much higher for the foreigners."
Not sure if this is classic race card, or reverse race card.
Seems the Japanese policing and justice system didn't worry Ghosn too much for the 18+ years he was living and working in Japan.
Not sure if this is classic race card, or reverse race card.
Seems the Japanese policing and justice system didn't worry Ghosn too much for the 18+ years he was living and working in Japan.
PZR said:
Ghosn: "This was the most difficult decision of my life, but let us not forget that I was facing a system where the conviction rate is 99.4 per cent and I will bet you this number is much higher for the foreigners."
Not sure if this is classic race card, or reverse race card.
Seems the Japanese policing and justice system didn't worry Ghosn too much for the 18+ years he was living and working in Japan.
True, but I think he has a point. A 99.4% conviction rate either implies only the most watertight possible cases make it to the courts and everything else is dropped (which is exceedingly doubtful) or that the courts are inherently broken.Not sure if this is classic race card, or reverse race card.
Seems the Japanese policing and justice system didn't worry Ghosn too much for the 18+ years he was living and working in Japan.
vaud said:
PZR said:
Ghosn: "This was the most difficult decision of my life, but let us not forget that I was facing a system where the conviction rate is 99.4 per cent and I will bet you this number is much higher for the foreigners."
Not sure if this is classic race card, or reverse race card.
Seems the Japanese policing and justice system didn't worry Ghosn too much for the 18+ years he was living and working in Japan.
True, but I think he has a point. A 99.4% conviction rate either implies only the most watertight possible cases make it to the courts and everything else is dropped (which is exceedingly doubtful) or that the courts are inherently broken.Not sure if this is classic race card, or reverse race card.
Seems the Japanese policing and justice system didn't worry Ghosn too much for the 18+ years he was living and working in Japan.
His claim of extra harsh treatment of "foreigners" is wide of the mark. I believe there is data which proves this is not true.
PZR said:
vaud said:
PZR said:
Ghosn: "This was the most difficult decision of my life, but let us not forget that I was facing a system where the conviction rate is 99.4 per cent and I will bet you this number is much higher for the foreigners."
Not sure if this is classic race card, or reverse race card.
Seems the Japanese policing and justice system didn't worry Ghosn too much for the 18+ years he was living and working in Japan.
True, but I think he has a point. A 99.4% conviction rate either implies only the most watertight possible cases make it to the courts and everything else is dropped (which is exceedingly doubtful) or that the courts are inherently broken.Not sure if this is classic race card, or reverse race card.
Seems the Japanese policing and justice system didn't worry Ghosn too much for the 18+ years he was living and working in Japan.
His claim of extra harsh treatment of "foreigners" is wide of the mark. I believe there is data which proves this is not true.
Burwood said:
Rubbish. It’s a fact the Judiciary kowtow to prosecutors out of fear. Foreigners are lower class citizens. He wasn’t going to be acquitted. I’ve worked for Japanese organisations. They are pretty out there. And they are the most racist race on the planet.
I've only experienced working in a management role for a UK arm of a privately owned Japanese conglomerate. It was an absolute nest of vipers. The UK MD was an Englishman who'd worked for them for many years and was utterly back stabbed by the incompetent Japanese who were parachuted in to snitch back to the 'emporer'. Nobody trusted anybody as the Japanese stuck together like gluez well, when they weren't stabbing each other in the back.
It was a toxic environment and no surprise the division I experienced withdrew from the country and went back to appointing a UK distributor.
One swallow doesn't make a summer, but having always respected the Japanese, the culture of the firm opened my eyes.
PZR said:
In fact, that's pretty much what does happen. Plenty of cases don't make it as far as the courts.
His claim of extra harsh treatment of "foreigners" is wide of the mark. I believe there is data which proves this is not true.
Some additional thoughts.His claim of extra harsh treatment of "foreigners" is wide of the mark. I believe there is data which proves this is not true.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/04/10/call-eliminate...
99% conviction rate is insane.
That means either they only prosecute people with overwhelming evidence, in which case some people are not even prosecuted for crimes they may have committed and might or might not be found guilty of.
Or everyone is guilty regardless.
either way its not how justice is supposed to work.
That means either they only prosecute people with overwhelming evidence, in which case some people are not even prosecuted for crimes they may have committed and might or might not be found guilty of.
Or everyone is guilty regardless.
either way its not how justice is supposed to work.
janesmith1950 said:
Burwood said:
Rubbish. It’s a fact the Judiciary kowtow to prosecutors out of fear. Foreigners are lower class citizens. He wasn’t going to be acquitted. I’ve worked for Japanese organisations. They are pretty out there. And they are the most racist race on the planet.
I've only experienced working in a management role for a UK arm of a privately owned Japanese conglomerate. It was an absolute nest of vipers. The UK MD was an Englishman who'd worked for them for many years and was utterly back stabbed by the incompetent Japanese who were parachuted in to snitch back to the 'emporer'. Nobody trusted anybody as the Japanese stuck together like gluez well, when they weren't stabbing each other in the back.
It was a toxic environment and no surprise the division I experienced withdrew from the country and went back to appointing a UK distributor.
One swallow doesn't make a summer, but having always respected the Japanese, the culture of the firm opened my eyes.
RobDickinson said:
99% conviction rate is insane.
That means either they only prosecute people with overwhelming evidence, in which case some people are not even prosecuted for crimes they may have committed and might or might not be found guilty of.
Or everyone is guilty regardless.
either way its not how justice is supposed to work.
It’s 99.9 for foreigners and that’s because 1 in 1000 die whilst in custody but before trial. That means either they only prosecute people with overwhelming evidence, in which case some people are not even prosecuted for crimes they may have committed and might or might not be found guilty of.
Or everyone is guilty regardless.
either way its not how justice is supposed to work.
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