RE: Audi RS2 vs. SEAT Leon ST Cupra Carbon Edition
Discussion
XK140 said:
Bit of a nonsensical comparison isn't it?
I've just bought one of these Seats,but I've paid £29k,not list £35.5k.
Now for circa £30k I could have bought a five year old RS4 Avant or indeed a bit newer S4 Avant,BUT...
The other two...out of warranty,more to fuel and insure,unknown and potentially high maintenance.
So,being perhaps too careful,I bought the Seat,fully recognising that the others are the better cars,but decisions have to be made.
However,an exotic-ish 25 year old car as a daily driver...really?
Thats the point that is being missed, the article isnt suggesting one is the logical alternative purchase for the other, the gist is that the RS2 was the fastest estate from back when it came out and was was definitely a bit exotic, where now, you can get something a lot more attainable that will perform as well, if not better for a lot less money, even if it is a lot more mundane.I've just bought one of these Seats,but I've paid £29k,not list £35.5k.
Now for circa £30k I could have bought a five year old RS4 Avant or indeed a bit newer S4 Avant,BUT...
The other two...out of warranty,more to fuel and insure,unknown and potentially high maintenance.
So,being perhaps too careful,I bought the Seat,fully recognising that the others are the better cars,but decisions have to be made.
However,an exotic-ish 25 year old car as a daily driver...really?
Onehp said:
PK0001 said:
Onehp said:
Fastchas said:
One ad says 'turbo' - the other 'turbocharged'
One ad says 'All wheel drive' - the other '4-wheel drive'
Are there any technical differences here or just worded differently from a cut & paste?
Turbo and turbocharged are the same thing. One ad says 'All wheel drive' - the other '4-wheel drive'
Are there any technical differences here or just worded differently from a cut & paste?
Some like to make a distinction between AWD and 4WD, I don't because most people don't use it correctly anyhow and the distinction is too simple to describe actual differrences. AWD pointing towards the all the wheels are driven all the time. And 4WD not. But it would be wrong to put a Haldex car in the same 4wd category as a off roader with a transfer case to shift it from 2wd to 4wd manually. Because a modern Haldex will basically drive all four wheels all the time in any meaningfull sense.
So no point in making the distinction, and if you want to know more about how any give car drives the four wheels, dig into in properly.
With AWD not all wheels are driven at the same time and that makes it superior for on road use as power is diverted away from wheels with no grip. Front to back and left to right.
Haldex is effectively 4WD with transfer of torque from front to back only.
J4CKO said:
Thats the point that is being missed, the article isnt suggesting one is the logical alternative purchase for the other, the gist is that the RS2 was the fastest estate from back when it came out and was was definitely a bit exotic, where now, you can get something a lot more attainable that will perform as well, if not better for a lot less money, even if it is a lot more mundane.
Quite.
A lot of the replies are along the lines that they would take the RS2 over a modern bland car,but in the real world they are not alternatives.
Like a lot of motoring journalism it has some interest but not much relevance to what's in the scope of most of us.
Quite.
A lot of the replies are along the lines that they would take the RS2 over a modern bland car,but in the real world they are not alternatives.
Like a lot of motoring journalism it has some interest but not much relevance to what's in the scope of most of us.
apc321 said:
Its a shame that the Seat (along with the Golf R, Audi S3 etc) has got 4 exhaust pipes.
In my personal opinion it spoils the look of an otherwise very good car.
My first job if I bought one would be to chop off the double pipe on each side, and weld in its place a single pipe on each side.
Other people may be thinking in the same way as in the last couple of months I have seen maybe three Golf R's with 4 exhaust pipes, where the owner has painted one pipe on each side of the car black in an attempt to hide them - unsucessfully I must add.
In my personal opinion it spoils the look of an otherwise very good car.
My first job if I bought one would be to chop off the double pipe on each side, and weld in its place a single pipe on each side.
Other people may be thinking in the same way as in the last couple of months I have seen maybe three Golf R's with 4 exhaust pipes, where the owner has painted one pipe on each side of the car black in an attempt to hide them - unsucessfully I must add.
Interesting article and views from owners and fans. Common theme pops up with RS2 and other older cars when people comment on articles like this. They were more fun because they were flawed.
I wonder, is this the real reason they were more enjoyable? Turbo lag aside on this particular model, were the more road biased suspension settings, smaller wheels, more forgiving tyres (and ride) etc on older cars flaws or actually benefits for road driving? I'm genuinely curious. Whilst technology has undoubtedly moved on, not all progress has resulted in greater involvement behind the wheel, so in some ways, is it the newer cars that are often flawed in their own way?
Certainly this RS2 is a hero car of mine. 0-100 in 13 secs doesn't sound fast now, but in 1994, it was a match for a 911 Carrera 4 and in a similar ballpark to the 3.8 litre E34 BMW M5. So equivalent to a sub 9 sec 0-100 MPH car today. Wasn't cheap though, even back then. Nearly 3 x the price of an Impreza turbo....
Pshtnheedz said:
Not massive depreciation by any means. After buying my RS2 in 1995, I sold it 5 years later for 72% of list price. I regret it now, but being a new Dad I didn't want to risk baby spew on my blue Alcantara.
Conversely, I bought mine when my first-born came along as I was looking for an interesting family wagon (though I can perhaps see your point when it was brand new). I don't use any car as a daily as I don't commute in one, but it still is my main family car, probably around 3-4k miles per year. I've found it pretty much bullet-proof - nothing has ever failed mechanically, though I did do a suspension rebuild with new brakes just after I got it, which was a big bill. But it's lasted. Since then, just normal annual servicing - over the last five years it's probably averaged around £250-300 per year, if that. Maybe the regular use keeps it in good shape. I did have all the side-trims replaced a few years ago - they rot from the inside as they trap moisture (untreated metal, bizarrely) and drop in and out of availability - I had mine treated with Hammerite before they were put on, which seems to be doing the trick.Like many old cars, tyre technology has made a big difference, especially to the steering feel, ride and noise levels, as well as giving better front-end grip to reduce understeer, though you have to be going pretty hard to notice - PS4s are great, make it almost a different car. The featured Audi UK heritage fleet car that still has its original 25-year-old tyres on it is a bit like Honda's heritage NSX being an auto. Baffled why they do that as it doesn't do the car any favours.
Every drive in the RS2 is an enjoyable experience, even pottering about - it feels special (it is special), but it's not shouty. It doesn't provoke either gawps or jealousy (the only thing people have ever done to it is leave notes on the windscreen asking to buy it); people who know their cars appreciate it quietly to themselves, and I suppose in the right place at the right time it is iconic (witness the guy in the paddock at Anglesey describing it in awestruck tones to his nonplussed son as 'Genesis').
Values may seem crazy to some, but are largely moot to me - the modern alternative (probably not a Cupra estate, more like the Porsche Panamera estate) is pretty pricey, and not nearly as iconic in its day. For my purposes, it's completely practical, and I'm not sure the fact I have a few other cars makes that much difference to its usage (except sparing it a lot of short journeys). If I had to keep just one of my cars, this would be the one.
greenarrow said:
I wonder, is this the real reason they were more enjoyable? Turbo lag aside on this particular model, were the more road biased suspension settings, smaller wheels, more forgiving tyres (and ride) etc on older cars flaws or actually benefits for road driving? I'm genuinely curious. Whilst technology has undoubtedly moved on, not all progress has resulted in greater involvement behind the wheel, so in some ways, is it the newer cars that are often flawed in their own way?
I would say this, but I find them a benefit - plus the greater visibility and smaller size. Call me old school, but turbo lag just means you're in the wrong gear. Once above 3k rpm in any gear, the shove is immediate and pretty immense, even by today's standards. The useful flipside is that below that (i.e. normal town driving), it's completely docile, yet still tactile enough to feel eventful (without annoying other people by belching and farting up the high street like some newer cars I won't mention). Almost every RS2 article nowadays talks about 'epic turbo lag' - in my view, that's just lazy journalism. Sure, the turbo is either on or off, but that's the driver's choice. I don't recall ever being caught out waiting for the turbo to spool up; I think that's what these things called "gears" are for, they seem to come quite in handy.gt69 said:
Like many old cars, tyre technology has made a big difference, especially to the steering feel, ride and noise levels, as well as giving better front-end grip to reduce understeer, though you have to be going pretty hard to notice - PS4s are great, make it almost a different car. The featured Audi UK heritage fleet car that still has its original 25-year-old tyres on it is a bit like Honda's heritage NSX being an auto. Baffled why they do that as it doesn't do the car any favours.
This seems to be a curse of all heritage fleets - decades old original oem brittle tyres, ancient brake pads and dampers etc. They were even giving out the yellow Heritage Escort Cosworth with a blown head gasket!Compare this to enthusiasts that keep the original character but swap in 2018 tyres, pads, dampers, coil-on-plug/wasted spark, new ecu etc. There is a huge difference in how these drive.
Edited by Olivera on Tuesday 27th November 00:09
janesmith1950 said:
Weirdly (I think?), I would get goosebumps all over driving the RS2, but die of boredom with the SEAT.
Maybe it's the subjective side/flaws with the older car that make it what it is.
Same thing with a Lotus Carlton and E39 M5. One is a legend, the other is an M5.
Seeing as you mentioned the Lotus Carlton, can i show you my pair of reprobates, I give you the RS2 and the Lotus Carlton all in one picture.Maybe it's the subjective side/flaws with the older car that make it what it is.
Same thing with a Lotus Carlton and E39 M5. One is a legend, the other is an M5.
apc321 said:
Its a shame that the Seat (along with the Golf R, Audi S3 etc) has got 4 exhaust pipes.
In my personal opinion it spoils the look of an otherwise very good car.
My first job if I bought one would be to chop off the double pipe on each side, and weld in its place a single pipe on each side.
Other people may be thinking in the same way as in the last couple of months I have seen maybe three Golf R's with 4 exhaust pipes, where the owner has painted one pipe on each side of the car black in an attempt to hide them - unsucessfully I must add.
Cupra has 2 pipes instead of 4.In my personal opinion it spoils the look of an otherwise very good car.
My first job if I bought one would be to chop off the double pipe on each side, and weld in its place a single pipe on each side.
Other people may be thinking in the same way as in the last couple of months I have seen maybe three Golf R's with 4 exhaust pipes, where the owner has painted one pipe on each side of the car black in an attempt to hide them - unsucessfully I must add.
nunpuncher said:
apc321 said:
Its a shame that the Seat (along with the Golf R, Audi S3 etc) has got 4 exhaust pipes.
In my personal opinion it spoils the look of an otherwise very good car.
My first job if I bought one would be to chop off the double pipe on each side, and weld in its place a single pipe on each side.
Other people may be thinking in the same way as in the last couple of months I have seen maybe three Golf R's with 4 exhaust pipes, where the owner has painted one pipe on each side of the car black in an attempt to hide them - unsucessfully I must add.
Cupra has 2 pipes instead of 4.In my personal opinion it spoils the look of an otherwise very good car.
My first job if I bought one would be to chop off the double pipe on each side, and weld in its place a single pipe on each side.
Other people may be thinking in the same way as in the last couple of months I have seen maybe three Golf R's with 4 exhaust pipes, where the owner has painted one pipe on each side of the car black in an attempt to hide them - unsucessfully I must add.
I wonder if people hiding them on R's is more down to security (i.e. trying to make them more stealthy to deter thieves) rather than aesthetics.
Nunpuncher - you were right about the gearbox modes. Sent you a PM too.
PK0001 said:
Onehp said:
PK0001 said:
Onehp said:
Fastchas said:
One ad says 'turbo' - the other 'turbocharged'
One ad says 'All wheel drive' - the other '4-wheel drive'
Are there any technical differences here or just worded differently from a cut & paste?
Turbo and turbocharged are the same thing. One ad says 'All wheel drive' - the other '4-wheel drive'
Are there any technical differences here or just worded differently from a cut & paste?
Some like to make a distinction between AWD and 4WD, I don't because most people don't use it correctly anyhow and the distinction is too simple to describe actual differrences. AWD pointing towards the all the wheels are driven all the time. And 4WD not. But it would be wrong to put a Haldex car in the same 4wd category as a off roader with a transfer case to shift it from 2wd to 4wd manually. Because a modern Haldex will basically drive all four wheels all the time in any meaningfull sense.
So no point in making the distinction, and if you want to know more about how any give car drives the four wheels, dig into in properly.
With AWD not all wheels are driven at the same time and that makes it superior for on road use as power is diverted away from wheels with no grip. Front to back and left to right.
Haldex is effectively 4WD with transfer of torque from front to back only.
Fine. Neither allow for the rear to actively drive the rear axle, the subaru only locks the center diff and relies on grip loss/additional front wheel slip in front to actually distribute more power (torque) to the rear, same as the Haldex. However the Haldex can actually actively send more torque to the front, which the Subaru can't. Left right torque distribution is done with brake based torque vectoring for both in front, again not an true active distribution of power. In the rear the posher Subies have a torsen lsd which can again only limit slip in the diff and not actively send torque to one side, it will also not work when one wheel is spinning freely, but also here brake based torque vectoring can at least mitigate the latter shortcoming.
In short, there isn't nearly as much in it as you probably thought... AWD vs 4WD my *ss
To keep this on topic, anyone care to detail how the RS2 Quattro actually works? I've have a day job and the coffee braek is over
KPB1973 said:
nunpuncher said:
apc321 said:
Other people may be thinking in the same way as in the last couple of months I have seen maybe three Golf R's with 4 exhaust pipes, where the owner has painted one pipe on each side of the car black in an attempt to hide them - unsucessfully I must add.
Cupra has 2 pipes instead of 4.I wonder if people hiding them on R's is more down to security (i.e. trying to make them more stealthy to deter thieves) rather than aesthetics.
Nunpuncher - you were right about the gearbox modes. Sent you a PM too.
[quote=gt69]
Every drive in the RS2 is an enjoyable experience, even pottering about - it feels special (it is special), but it's not shouty. It doesn't provoke either gawps or jealousy (the only thing people have ever done to it is leave notes on the windscreen asking to buy it); people who know their cars appreciate it quietly to themselves, and I suppose in the right place at the right time it is iconic (witness the guy in the paddock at Anglesey describing it in awestruck tones to his nonplussed son as 'Genesis').
That's what I loved about mine. Not many people noticed the car but the ones that really knew what the car was really admired it. You would get people coming up to you in a petrol station and chat about it. Another time I was up in Mallaig sitting getting a bite to eat in the car and admiring the view when I noticed a VW van with two people in it. They pulled beside the car then reversed then pulled forward again and when I looked up they give me a thumbs up with smiles on their faces.
Every drive in the RS2 is an enjoyable experience, even pottering about - it feels special (it is special), but it's not shouty. It doesn't provoke either gawps or jealousy (the only thing people have ever done to it is leave notes on the windscreen asking to buy it); people who know their cars appreciate it quietly to themselves, and I suppose in the right place at the right time it is iconic (witness the guy in the paddock at Anglesey describing it in awestruck tones to his nonplussed son as 'Genesis').
That's what I loved about mine. Not many people noticed the car but the ones that really knew what the car was really admired it. You would get people coming up to you in a petrol station and chat about it. Another time I was up in Mallaig sitting getting a bite to eat in the car and admiring the view when I noticed a VW van with two people in it. They pulled beside the car then reversed then pulled forward again and when I looked up they give me a thumbs up with smiles on their faces.
phumy said:
Seeing as you mentioned the Lotus Carlton, can i show you my pair of reprobates, I give you the RS2 and the Lotus Carlton all in one picture.
In the 90's, your house would be Disney World for every ram raider in the UK. What a garage, all you need is a dark green Escort Cosworth to go along with them apc321 said:
Its a shame that the Seat (along with the Golf R, Audi S3 etc) has got 4 exhaust pipes.
In my personal opinion it spoils the look of an otherwise very good car.
My first job if I bought one would be to chop off the double pipe on each side, and weld in its place a single pipe on each side.
Other people may be thinking in the same way as in the last couple of months I have seen maybe three Golf R's with 4 exhaust pipes, where the owner has painted one pipe on each side of the car black in an attempt to hide them - unsucessfully I must add.
They aren't painted they're just dirty. Only 2 pipes are active in normal drive modes so they soot up much quicker. All 4 are active in sport mode.In my personal opinion it spoils the look of an otherwise very good car.
My first job if I bought one would be to chop off the double pipe on each side, and weld in its place a single pipe on each side.
Other people may be thinking in the same way as in the last couple of months I have seen maybe three Golf R's with 4 exhaust pipes, where the owner has painted one pipe on each side of the car black in an attempt to hide them - unsucessfully I must add.
I own an S3 and agree that 4 pipes is excessive. The Golf GTI looks much smarter than the R from behind with twin pipes instead of quad.
Onehp said:
KPB1973 said:
nunpuncher said:
apc321 said:
Other people may be thinking in the same way as in the last couple of months I have seen maybe three Golf R's with 4 exhaust pipes, where the owner has painted one pipe on each side of the car black in an attempt to hide them - unsucessfully I must add.
Cupra has 2 pipes instead of 4.I wonder if people hiding them on R's is more down to security (i.e. trying to make them more stealthy to deter thieves) rather than aesthetics.
Nunpuncher - you were right about the gearbox modes. Sent you a PM too.
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