RE: Eighth generation Porsche 911 officially unveiled

[Kenny Powers]

SidewaysSi said:

Yep it wouldn't sell. You only need to read this forum for 5 minutes to pick that up.

And this is meant to be a place for car enthusiasts.

To be fair if you only read the forum for five minutes you’d be forgiven for thinking that everyone here hates every single new car ever made

[Leithen]

So this "Wet Mode", AKA "Scottish Mode" - I hope it's going to be easy to switch off. There's barely any chance of it not being automatically engaged up here.

[SYC378L]

Yawn...

[Burwood]

Ares said:

Julian Thompson said:

Ares said:

Julian Thompson said:

PaulD86 said:

Ares said:

Julian Thompson said:

I absolutely love that. If I was a very wealthy man I’d have one to use every day in a heartbeat.

Unfortunaly I’m not, and so I have to look at it and concede that an M3/4/c63 probably does a good fist of the same job for half the price and is nowhere near half the car.

If I’m spending £100k+ it would need to be super special as an experience and I’m not yet convinced that these will be.

But of course, happily there are plenty of people that can easily spend £100k+ on a car to drive everyday and so I’m sure that Porsche will do great with them, and what a lovely way to get about! Fantastic!

Thing is, an M3/M4/C63s isn't half the price anymore, more like two-thirds, and whilst they can keep up performance wise, as a drive they are left wanting.

When I was in my local BMW dealer the other week they had an M3 'reduced' to £87k from £93k. I had no idea how much M cars were these days but around 90k for an M3 makes the 911 look like a bargain IMO. I'm a BMW fan and I'd love an M car but not at that money or anything like.

Hmmm one thing to remember here chaps is that BMW and Mercedes chop zillions off their cars because their distribution networks are not as well organised and controlled as Porsche. So a new or new pre registered M4 is really a £50k car in reality, not a £70k one.

Porsche, on the other hand, work harder to protect their brand, and so a £110k 992 really is a £110k 992 and all you’re getting off that is a set of mats or some other small gesture.

True....although the Ltd Edition ones seldom drop much, and you don't get £20k off a brand new M3/M4.

Setting aside the limited edition cars as “specialist” you definitely can get an enormous discount from a normal BMW mid range m car like a 3 or 4. I know that because I paid not a lot more than £50k for a new M4 comp last year. And at £50k that does make the 992 look too expensive at £110k. (Unless you have tonnes of money - in which case absolutely fill your boots!) (and in fairness the 992 is aimed at people with tonnes of money!)

Yes, I was offered a Competition DCT for £51k last year....but the RRP for the car was only £58,600. It's now £66k - You won't get a new one for £50k now, let alone get £20k off.

...and the 992 is £93k, not £110k. (both cars before you start adding options)

Even after max BMW discount today, there is still only just over £30k in it, two-thirds....as I said

The 992 will be worth 60k after 5 years. The bmw, 23k. Porsche net cost is about the same

[SidewaysSi]

E65Ross said:

SidewaysSi said:

E65Ross said:

SidewaysSi said:

E65Ross said:

SidewaysSi said:

Yep it wouldn't sell. You only need to read this forum for 5 minutes to pick that up.

And this is meant to be a place for car enthusiasts.

The trouble is, reading this forum for 5 minutes is, firstly, a very small demographic, and secondly, it is largely populated by enthusiasts who aren't going to be in the market for a £100k car. It's all well and good saying "I'd like one of these for £40k in 5 years time".....that doesn't help Porsche a great deal though.

It is meant to be a forum for driving enthusiasts and most on here wouldn't buy a stripped out 911 even if they had the resources. They would go for the one with all the tech and toys. So what does that say about the rest of the 911 buying population?

Of course, I often wonder if anyone on here is an enthusiast at all but that's another topic entirely.

You realise you can still be an enthusiast and not want to drive a GT3 race car to work, right? You can be a driving enthusiast if your idea of a wonderful car is a Rolls Royce Phantom, instead of a Caterham, right? Just because someone would prefer their £100k car to not be completely stripped out and to include a heater and electric windows with leather on their seats, doesn't mean they aren't an enthusiast.

But there we go.

Think you have taken what I was saying to extremes to try to make some sort of point.

They are extreme examples, yes, but the point still stands along any part of the spectrum.

Think you may need to remind yourself of the detail being discussed. ; )

[Julian Thompson]

Seems so - except you’ve got to find/finance an extra 50 grand in the first place but assuming that’s not an issue then I take your point 100%.

[donutskidmark]

Julian Thompson said:

Well I can’t really explain this viewpoint any other way so I’ll tell you what happened to me.

So back in 16 I bought a 991.1 gts and really didn’t get on with it. Why? Purely because it was a very expenisve car that, for most of the time on the road was not really that much better than lots of other cars. And, when you tried to drive it hard and really enjoy it I found it a bit numb and dead compared to the old 964RS that my 911 memories are founded on.

So, I sold the expensive 991 and bought an M4 for about half the price. The M4 does 99% of the jobs the 991 did for 99% of the time. It’s also a bit numb, and a bit ubiquitous but it cost a lot, lot less money, and it’s still a great place to be. I also don’t mind quite as much leaving it parked up like I did with the 991.

So in my case the 911 did compete with the M4 purely because of the extra cost of ownership of the 911 not being worth it (to me) for the small benefits of the car being better - the 911 is (in “cooking model” format) no longer the totally different, completely unique car it once was now it has been sanitised over so many years. It will be interesting to see if the new one is better than the one I had.

Ironically, I do also still have a GT3 991 which I absolutely love and which feels NOTHING like the gts or other standard model 911’s and which I think is worth all the extra cash - truly a special machine that, as a car, is way better than the old 964RS ever was (leaving rose glasses at home) when it comes to a pure driving machine.

I agree totally with the above.
The 991.1 GTS was not worth the money and had numb steering- I sold mine after 4 months.
The 992 success- for driving enthusiasts anyway, depends largely if it has responsive handling and feel. I imagine however that 90% of buyers ain’t bothered if it feels like any other fast Audi or BMW.....they’ll be cruising to Waitrose and just want a nice car.
I do think it’s unnecessary that the 992 tells you when it’s wet with a dashboard warning, can’t you look out of the windscreen and see puddles and rain?

[Cloudy147]

MrVert said:

Loving that...having owned one 'Kermit'....


that is

Lovely. Did you park outside of that shop on purpose, or just a happy coincidence?

re: the new car, I think it looks great, although not sure about the new cup holder appendage.



Hope that is removable, doesn't look terribly sleek - or comfortable if you go all arm resty.

[redroadster]

NJJ said:

Makes you realise that there is now a big gap in the market for a 6/8 cylinder sports car that is priced at £80k - £100k.

The problem is sports cars are not big profit earners for the mainstream premium manufacturers so they price them accordingly to justify the business case. We all know that this new 992 could be sold for under £100k but the numbers would not add up. I bet they do for a 6-cylinder Cayman (forthcoming GT4 aside) but that would tread too much on the toes of this 992 so Porsche will never do it.

Back to 992, I cannot see an option on the configurator to body colour the black plastic on the rear bumper, if I was ordering I would want that option.

New Toyota Supra will mop up sales .

[DeltaEvo2]

Giulia.

[Terminator X]

Ares said:

Julian Thompson said:

See what you mean - yep - plus, the 992 will depreciate less than the M4 by a lot which levels out the playing field further....

PS I’m very surprised about the price increase on the M4 that’s a lot of money more.

Exchange rates....and profiteering blamed on Brexit.

A lot of things have gone up in price, even just recently - I've just bought my 9r old daughter a North Face jacket. Tried it on weekend before last, £160. Noticed on Black Friday it had gone to £180 (no BF Discount)....went to the store to buy today, £190.

A lot of things have done likewise.

Market forces though, people will stop buying both at their own internal price point. Anyone selling a product needs to keep that in mind.

TX.

[Julian Thompson]

donutskidmark said:

Julian Thompson said:

Well I can’t really explain this viewpoint any other way so I’ll tell you what happened to me.

So back in 16 I bought a 991.1 gts and really didn’t get on with it. Why? Purely because it was a very expenisve car that, for most of the time on the road was not really that much better than lots of other cars. And, when you tried to drive it hard and really enjoy it I found it a bit numb and dead compared to the old 964RS that my 911 memories are founded on.

So, I sold the expensive 991 and bought an M4 for about half the price. The M4 does 99% of the jobs the 991 did for 99% of the time. It’s also a bit numb, and a bit ubiquitous but it cost a lot, lot less money, and it’s still a great place to be. I also don’t mind quite as much leaving it parked up like I did with the 991.

So in my case the 911 did compete with the M4 purely because of the extra cost of ownership of the 911 not being worth it (to me) for the small benefits of the car being better - the 911 is (in “cooking model” format) no longer the totally different, completely unique car it once was now it has been sanitised over so many years. It will be interesting to see if the new one is better than the one I had.

Ironically, I do also still have a GT3 991 which I absolutely love and which feels NOTHING like the gts or other standard model 911’s and which I think is worth all the extra cash - truly a special machine that, as a car, is way better than the old 964RS ever was (leaving rose glasses at home) when it comes to a pure driving machine.

I agree totally with the above.
The 991.1 GTS was not worth the money and had numb steering- I sold mine after 4 months.
The 992 success- for driving enthusiasts anyway, depends largely if it has responsive handling and feel. I imagine however that 90% of buyers ain’t bothered if it feels like any other fast Audi or BMW.....they’ll be cruising to Waitrose and just want a nice car.
I do think it’s unnecessary that the 992 tells you when it’s wet with a dashboard warning, can’t you look out of the windscreen and see puddles and rain?

I remember putting it on rennlist that I was disappointed with it. amongst the hate that I got back for just being honest rather than trying to self congratulate my purchase I did get to speak to a guy who had sorted his own 991 by changing some of the suspension bushes and top mounts for less compliant ones which he said transformed it. I decided I’d lost enough and just sold it but I have no reason to doubt him. I just didn’t want to turn my £100k car into a test bed.

Having said all this, my father borrowed the car for a day or so and absolutely, absolutely loved it. And a couple of my friends who drove it also absolutely loved it, so it is clear that my disappointment is certainly not a shared view. (Until today - never met anyone else who actuallly had had one who agreed with me apart from the guy mentioned above)

[PaulD86]

Julian Thompson said:

donutskidmark said:

Julian Thompson said:

Well I can’t really explain this viewpoint any other way so I’ll tell you what happened to me.

So back in 16 I bought a 991.1 gts and really didn’t get on with it. Why? Purely because it was a very expenisve car that, for most of the time on the road was not really that much better than lots of other cars. And, when you tried to drive it hard and really enjoy it I found it a bit numb and dead compared to the old 964RS that my 911 memories are founded on.

So, I sold the expensive 991 and bought an M4 for about half the price. The M4 does 99% of the jobs the 991 did for 99% of the time. It’s also a bit numb, and a bit ubiquitous but it cost a lot, lot less money, and it’s still a great place to be. I also don’t mind quite as much leaving it parked up like I did with the 991.

So in my case the 911 did compete with the M4 purely because of the extra cost of ownership of the 911 not being worth it (to me) for the small benefits of the car being better - the 911 is (in “cooking model” format) no longer the totally different, completely unique car it once was now it has been sanitised over so many years. It will be interesting to see if the new one is better than the one I had.

Ironically, I do also still have a GT3 991 which I absolutely love and which feels NOTHING like the gts or other standard model 911’s and which I think is worth all the extra cash - truly a special machine that, as a car, is way better than the old 964RS ever was (leaving rose glasses at home) when it comes to a pure driving machine.

I agree totally with the above.
The 991.1 GTS was not worth the money and had numb steering- I sold mine after 4 months.
The 992 success- for driving enthusiasts anyway, depends largely if it has responsive handling and feel. I imagine however that 90% of buyers ain’t bothered if it feels like any other fast Audi or BMW.....they’ll be cruising to Waitrose and just want a nice car.
I do think it’s unnecessary that the 992 tells you when it’s wet with a dashboard warning, can’t you look out of the windscreen and see puddles and rain?

I remember putting it on rennlist that I was disappointed with it. amongst the hate that I got back for just being honest rather than trying to self congratulate my purchase I did get to speak to a guy who had sorted his own 991 by changing some of the suspension bushes and top mounts for less compliant ones which he said transformed it. I decided I’d lost enough and just sold it but I have no reason to doubt him. I just didn’t want to turn my £100k car into a test bed.

Having said all this, my father borrowed the car for a day or so and absolutely, absolutely loved it. And a couple of my friends who drove it also absolutely loved it, so it is clear that my disappointment is certainly not a shared view. (Until today - never met anyone else who actuallly had had one who agreed with me apart from the guy mentioned above)

Out of interest, how many miles did you do in the GTS? We are on our 3rd 911 now - gen 1 997, gen 2 997 and now a gen 1 991. The gen 2 997 was my favorite of the 3 by a fair margin. It had a feel that the 991 doesn't IMHO.

After a 964RS I suspect most modern, everyday usable cars will feel a bit numb. I have a Cayman R as I think it is one of a few cars that manages to be 'relatively' modern whilst feeling reasonably old school and raw. But it's still 7 years old now (time flies when you're having a lot of fun!)

The 911 took me a fair chunk of time to bond with. It's not a car I 'got' at first. But now I do like them a lot. Not as much as my Cayman though. Although I think they are far more different cars than people sometimes assume.

As for the 911 being a GT car now. I don't think so at all. It's a sports car to me having driven the likes of DB9s, R8, F-Type, and i8 to compare with. The DB9 is a GT car. It drives very nicely but it doesn't have the poise I associate with a sports car. The 911 may work as a GT car as with the active suspension in soft mode it does ride very well and it has plenty toys (if you spec them) but throw it into a bend and it feels and behaves like what I'd expect of a sports car. Those who have driven 911s (and more than a quick spin in one) and a selection of other comparable cars who still think the 911 is a GT car then fair enough, but I suspect many opinions in this thread come from those with little of no experience actually driving the 911 or its competitors.

The most interesting part of this thread for me is that the new 911 seems to get a very mixed reaction, lots of it poor, while the new Jeep Gladiator thread is heaped with praise. I can certainly see why Pistonheads ditched the 'speed matters' tag...

[Ares]

redroadster said:

NJJ said:

Makes you realise that there is now a big gap in the market for a 6/8 cylinder sports car that is priced at £80k - £100k.

The problem is sports cars are not big profit earners for the mainstream premium manufacturers so they price them accordingly to justify the business case. We all know that this new 992 could be sold for under £100k but the numbers would not add up. I bet they do for a 6-cylinder Cayman (forthcoming GT4 aside) but that would tread too much on the toes of this 992 so Porsche will never do it.

Back to 992, I cannot see an option on the configurator to body colour the black plastic on the rear bumper, if I was ordering I would want that option.

New Toyota Supra will mop up sales .

From a £93k 911? The Supra which is a Z4 in a different frock?

I'll bear my arse in Waitrose window if it does.

[sidesauce]

Julian Thompson said:

donutskidmark said:

Julian Thompson said:

Well I can’t really explain this viewpoint any other way so I’ll tell you what happened to me.

So back in 16 I bought a 991.1 gts and really didn’t get on with it. Why? Purely because it was a very expenisve car that, for most of the time on the road was not really that much better than lots of other cars. And, when you tried to drive it hard and really enjoy it I found it a bit numb and dead compared to the old 964RS that my 911 memories are founded on.

So, I sold the expensive 991 and bought an M4 for about half the price. The M4 does 99% of the jobs the 991 did for 99% of the time. It’s also a bit numb, and a bit ubiquitous but it cost a lot, lot less money, and it’s still a great place to be. I also don’t mind quite as much leaving it parked up like I did with the 991.

So in my case the 911 did compete with the M4 purely because of the extra cost of ownership of the 911 not being worth it (to me) for the small benefits of the car being better - the 911 is (in “cooking model” format) no longer the totally different, completely unique car it once was now it has been sanitised over so many years. It will be interesting to see if the new one is better than the one I had.

Ironically, I do also still have a GT3 991 which I absolutely love and which feels NOTHING like the gts or other standard model 911’s and which I think is worth all the extra cash - truly a special machine that, as a car, is way better than the old 964RS ever was (leaving rose glasses at home) when it comes to a pure driving machine.

I agree totally with the above.
The 991.1 GTS was not worth the money and had numb steering- I sold mine after 4 months.
The 992 success- for driving enthusiasts anyway, depends largely if it has responsive handling and feel. I imagine however that 90% of buyers ain’t bothered if it feels like any other fast Audi or BMW.....they’ll be cruising to Waitrose and just want a nice car.
I do think it’s unnecessary that the 992 tells you when it’s wet with a dashboard warning, can’t you look out of the windscreen and see puddles and rain?

I remember putting it on rennlist that I was disappointed with it. amongst the hate that I got back for just being honest rather than trying to self congratulate my purchase I did get to speak to a guy who had sorted his own 991 by changing some of the suspension bushes and top mounts for less compliant ones which he said transformed it. I decided I’d lost enough and just sold it but I have no reason to doubt him. I just didn’t want to turn my £100k car into a test bed.

Having said all this, my father borrowed the car for a day or so and absolutely, absolutely loved it. And a couple of my friends who drove it also absolutely loved it, so it is clear that my disappointment is certainly not a shared view. (Until today - never met anyone else who actuallly had had one who agreed with me apart from the guy mentioned above)

Which obviously shows you're both in a minority. That's not a criticism, it's just most people don't agree with your assessment, that's all.

[Ares]

DeltaEvo2 said:

Giulia.

Closer fit than the M3/M4/AMG etc,... but (and I by default compared the two), the 911 is in a different league, even if there is nothing in it performance wise.


.....now if the rumoured rear engined coupe, using the QF engine (or even better, the 600bhp Hybrid version), comes to light, that does have a far better chance of taking the fight to Stuttgart.

[Ares]

Terminator X said:

Ares said:

Julian Thompson said:

See what you mean - yep - plus, the 992 will depreciate less than the M4 by a lot which levels out the playing field further....

PS I’m very surprised about the price increase on the M4 that’s a lot of money more.

Exchange rates....and profiteering blamed on Brexit.

A lot of things have gone up in price, even just recently - I've just bought my 9r old daughter a North Face jacket. Tried it on weekend before last, £160. Noticed on Black Friday it had gone to £180 (no BF Discount)....went to the store to buy today, £190.

A lot of things have done likewise.

Market forces though, people will stop buying both at their own internal price point. Anyone selling a product needs to keep that in mind.

TX.

True...didn't stop me....I did grumble though

[Meridius]

I think it looks fantastic, love how sleek and uninterrupted the curves are towards the back and over the arches. The louvres and rear light in that heckblende style give a nice retro feel, saw a silver version in a launch video that had brown leather and wood effect on the dash shelf which added even more to that retro feel. In that respect I think Porsche must have listened to the popularity of that 911R and how enamoured the car world is with their classics, carrying it into this new model and it has really worked well IMO.

I can see what people are saying about the back, I think it is the plastic lower bumper and exhaust surround being so big that is the only let down of the car.

[Julian Thompson]

sidesauce said:

Julian Thompson said:

donutskidmark said:

Julian Thompson said:

Well I can’t really explain this viewpoint any other way so I’ll tell you what happened to me.

So back in 16 I bought a 991.1 gts and really didn’t get on with it. Why? Purely because it was a very expenisve car that, for most of the time on the road was not really that much better than lots of other cars. And, when you tried to drive it hard and really enjoy it I found it a bit numb and dead compared to the old 964RS that my 911 memories are founded on.

So, I sold the expensive 991 and bought an M4 for about half the price. The M4 does 99% of the jobs the 991 did for 99% of the time. It’s also a bit numb, and a bit ubiquitous but it cost a lot, lot less money, and it’s still a great place to be. I also don’t mind quite as much leaving it parked up like I did with the 991.

So in my case the 911 did compete with the M4 purely because of the extra cost of ownership of the 911 not being worth it (to me) for the small benefits of the car being better - the 911 is (in “cooking model” format) no longer the totally different, completely unique car it once was now it has been sanitised over so many years. It will be interesting to see if the new one is better than the one I had.

Ironically, I do also still have a GT3 991 which I absolutely love and which feels NOTHING like the gts or other standard model 911’s and which I think is worth all the extra cash - truly a special machine that, as a car, is way better than the old 964RS ever was (leaving rose glasses at home) when it comes to a pure driving machine.

I agree totally with the above.
The 991.1 GTS was not worth the money and had numb steering- I sold mine after 4 months.
The 992 success- for driving enthusiasts anyway, depends largely if it has responsive handling and feel. I imagine however that 90% of buyers ain’t bothered if it feels like any other fast Audi or BMW.....they’ll be cruising to Waitrose and just want a nice car.
I do think it’s unnecessary that the 992 tells you when it’s wet with a dashboard warning, can’t you look out of the windscreen and see puddles and rain?

I remember putting it on rennlist that I was disappointed with it. amongst the hate that I got back for just being honest rather than trying to self congratulate my purchase I did get to speak to a guy who had sorted his own 991 by changing some of the suspension bushes and top mounts for less compliant ones which he said transformed it. I decided I’d lost enough and just sold it but I have no reason to doubt him. I just didn’t want to turn my £100k car into a test bed.

Having said all this, my father borrowed the car for a day or so and absolutely, absolutely loved it. And a couple of my friends who drove it also absolutely loved it, so it is clear that my disappointment is certainly not a shared view. (Until today - never met anyone else who actuallly had had one who agreed with me apart from the guy mentioned above)

Which obviously shows you're both in a minority. That's not a criticism, it's just most people don't agree with your assessment, that's all.

Agreed! 200%

[Oakman]

Cloudy147 said:

Hope that is removable, doesn't look terribly sleek - or comfortable if you go all arm resty.

Thought it was for a Porsche Plant Pot !!! Did they pinch it from a Scania truck ?



Shame, I've not got one of those in my 993 - and I thought my car was newer too, with the naming configuration.....That's progress for you