RE: Audi to rival Tesla with 590hp e-tron GT
Discussion
rxe said:
Witchfinder said:
The only way you could be more of an outlier is if you also said you need to tow your helicopter on a trailer while you're doing it, and have enough room for your antique cat coffin collection in the boot.
I think the far more normal requirement is someone doing the sort of commute I was doing last year. ....
As someone commented above, until someone starts building cars with decent range and quality for less than 30K, its all a bit niche.
RacerMike said:
964Cup said:
250 mile range. What use is that? I wonder when they'll stop chasing "ludicrous" acceleration numbers and start giving us usable ranges. To come close to replacing our ICE car, we need a 400 mile range with no more than 30 mins refuelling time at the outside. Otherwise a routine 11 hour journey will become some kind of "dog walking on its hind legs" marathon odyssey.
964Cup said:
...we've got an XC90 T8 arriving in January. I wish it had greater electric range - it would be nice to be able to get all the way out of London on electricity only, but I doubt it will manage it, but it's at least a sop to ecological responsibility.
Autocar said:
Volvo XC90 T8 Real-world range: 342 miles
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/our-cars/volvo-...So you clearly don't 400 mile range then? Either that or you're going to be sending the XC90 back. You'll actually have to stop on the way down! My God!
964Cup said:
I sold it and bought a Range Rover diesel after spending one trip to Italy repeatedly passing the same diesel Shogun. We were cruising at about 100 leptons. They weren't. But they also didn't have to stop every two hours to refuel, and they got there without ever having to watch their rear view mirror for a flic on a BMW 1100. Range matters.
964Cup said:
We've had a succession of Range Rovers and Discoverys, but since JLR singularly failed to see the diesel backlash coming
So again....you bought a petrol electric Volvo because you fell for the ruse about dirty diesel? Seems to me you're not really sure what you want!In all honesty, if you really wanted to, you could make this Audi or a Porsche Taycan work. I'm assuming you already have a 7kW charge point at home now as you have a PHEV which realistically needs charging to achieve that real world 346 mile range (if not it will be around 300 miles I guess). With Ionity expanding over Europe already you'd be able to charge the Audi probably quicker than you can fuel 70L, go in, pay, use the toilet, buy a croissant and wait for your missus to powder her nose, and I suspect the Audi would actually be a lovely car to own....and a lot more dynamic than the XC90 (which is a lovely car, but it's very much an SUV in the way it drives).
But then....having an EV probably wouldn't suit the 'I don't care' image you like to project. Wouldn't want anyone thinking you were brash enough to be showing off....
Mike1990 said:
Does look fantastic, really it does, but. I Just can’t get even remotely excited for any form of battery powered ‘car’
I do appreciate the instant acceleration but that’s about it.
I think that's probably Tesla's 'fault' for. A lot of the general driven attributes are a bit 'meh' so the acceleration becomes the only thing that stands out. An I-Pace doesn't do the EV bit as well as a Tesla (from an economy point of view) but it's worth driving one as I think it shows that EVs will be fun to drive and have character when the major manufacturers get hold of them. I imagine the Taycan will be genuinely incredible to drive.I do appreciate the instant acceleration but that’s about it.
For me ... the biggest problem EVs have is their potential to leave you hanging during an emergency situation.
If you need to flee your location fast during a natural disaster or such (which can happen happen at any time), and haven't fully charged; you and your family could literally be dead.
Most 'ideal' 250 mile range marketing quotes are for cars that are new, have no passengers or extra weight, and are fully topped off. If not in ideal conditions, your range could be considerably less.
In an ICE, even if almost empty; I can find gas literally anywhere, fill up in minutes, and be outta there... if necessary.
The delayed charging times of EVs are also still a MAJOR negative.
Imagine trying to get some "supercharger" time during an emergency when everybody is forced to flee the area? Much less being in a long endless queue of cars evacuating in emergency traffic, trying to last with a full "charge" as long as possible while your 'range' ticks down by the minute due to 'parasitic' drain/losses; because your entire car is dependent on electricity to run.
I don't want to have to depend on automakers to generously give me 'over the air' range updates during such situations either....
An ICE could face some of these problems, but there is currently a permanent infrastructure in place to provide for millions on demand. If the power grid goes out, for any reason, you are screwed in an EV...
Gas stations can at least keep going with a back up generator during a power grid shut down.
If you need to flee your location fast during a natural disaster or such (which can happen happen at any time), and haven't fully charged; you and your family could literally be dead.
Most 'ideal' 250 mile range marketing quotes are for cars that are new, have no passengers or extra weight, and are fully topped off. If not in ideal conditions, your range could be considerably less.
In an ICE, even if almost empty; I can find gas literally anywhere, fill up in minutes, and be outta there... if necessary.
The delayed charging times of EVs are also still a MAJOR negative.
Imagine trying to get some "supercharger" time during an emergency when everybody is forced to flee the area? Much less being in a long endless queue of cars evacuating in emergency traffic, trying to last with a full "charge" as long as possible while your 'range' ticks down by the minute due to 'parasitic' drain/losses; because your entire car is dependent on electricity to run.
I don't want to have to depend on automakers to generously give me 'over the air' range updates during such situations either....
An ICE could face some of these problems, but there is currently a permanent infrastructure in place to provide for millions on demand. If the power grid goes out, for any reason, you are screwed in an EV...
Gas stations can at least keep going with a back up generator during a power grid shut down.
RobDickinson said:
Leonard Stanley said:
Why does it have a transmission tunnel?
Tradition?Audi probably have a warehouse full of A7 grills and tunnel carpet..
RacerMike said:
964Cup said:
250 mile range. What use is that? I wonder when they'll stop chasing "ludicrous" acceleration numbers and start giving us usable ranges. To come close to replacing our ICE car, we need a 400 mile range with no more than 30 mins refuelling time at the outside. Otherwise a routine 11 hour journey will become some kind of "dog walking on its hind legs" marathon odyssey.
964Cup said:
...we've got an XC90 T8 arriving in January. I wish it had greater electric range - it would be nice to be able to get all the way out of London on electricity only, but I doubt it will manage it, but it's at least a sop to ecological responsibility.
Autocar said:
Volvo XC90 T8 Real-world range: 342 miles
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/our-cars/volvo-...So you clearly don't 400 mile range then? Either that or you're going to be sending the XC90 back. You'll actually have to stop on the way down! My God!
964Cup said:
I sold it and bought a Range Rover diesel after spending one trip to Italy repeatedly passing the same diesel Shogun. We were cruising at about 100 leptons. They weren't. But they also didn't have to stop every two hours to refuel, and they got there without ever having to watch their rear view mirror for a flic on a BMW 1100. Range matters.
964Cup said:
We've had a succession of Range Rovers and Discoverys, but since JLR singularly failed to see the diesel backlash coming
So again....you bought a petrol electric Volvo because you fell for the ruse about dirty diesel? Seems to me you're not really sure what you want!In all honesty, if you really wanted to, you could make this Audi or a Porsche Taycan work. I'm assuming you already have a 7kW charge point at home now as you have a PHEV which realistically needs charging to achieve that real world 346 mile range (if not it will be around 300 miles I guess). With Ionity expanding over Europe already you'd be able to charge the Audi probably quicker than you can fuel 70L, go in, pay, use the toilet, buy a croissant and wait for your missus to powder her nose, and I suspect the Audi would actually be a lovely car to own....and a lot more dynamic than the XC90 (which is a lovely car, but it's very much an SUV in the way it drives).
But then....having an EV probably wouldn't suit the 'I don't care' image you like to project. Wouldn't want anyone thinking you were brash enough to be showing off....
I might re-appraise EV's in 10 years or so, but at the moment, for me, with recharge times and inability to use the performance without compromising the range, they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Translate this Audi's name into French and you'll pretty much sum up my view on them.
RobDickinson said:
* These will sell, and sell well, they'll sell all they can make of them I'm sure.
Porsche was talking about tooling up for 20,000 a year, I'm not sure these will count in that total?
Probably not, because Porsche don't build Audis, and no Audi is built at a Porsche factory.Porsche was talking about tooling up for 20,000 a year, I'm not sure these will count in that total?
I think its exciting, the EV is one of those technologies that has taken a long time to appear, in the meantime we have grown to love inferior technologies, partly because you end up loving what you are used to. Like CRT tellies, taps, vinyl, dvds, VHS etc all blossomed, until a better, viable alternative arrived that was more compelling and as soon as the price vs performance balance tipped, those old technologies got dropped by the masses like a stone. Going to the Video shop vs streaming, carrying CD's versus Spotify.
As the range gets better, and it will do, the prize for manufacturers who produce the first EV's you dont have to make allowances for quite as much is so big.
We are a bit odd as petrolheads in that a lot of noise, for most people that is way down the pecking order in terms of purchase criteria, hence why so many expensive diesels are out there, most people prefer, if asked, the sound of a loping V8 over a 4 cyl diesel but other criteria trump that. We will be, like Audiophiles with their Vinyl and expensive turntables having a V8 or any performance IC car after the EV replaces all normal cars, which has started in earnest.
This looks utterly gorgeous, proportions, detailing etc but it will be very expensive, what I want to see is more lower end EV's, the Leaf is pretty good I believe, but we need something a bit sexier and aspirational at a lower price point than the Tesla, the model 3 will go some way to address that, but there is a need for sub 30k EV's with credible ranges and a dash of the mental performance.
And keep an eye on China, I reckon they will want part of the EV action.
As the range gets better, and it will do, the prize for manufacturers who produce the first EV's you dont have to make allowances for quite as much is so big.
We are a bit odd as petrolheads in that a lot of noise, for most people that is way down the pecking order in terms of purchase criteria, hence why so many expensive diesels are out there, most people prefer, if asked, the sound of a loping V8 over a 4 cyl diesel but other criteria trump that. We will be, like Audiophiles with their Vinyl and expensive turntables having a V8 or any performance IC car after the EV replaces all normal cars, which has started in earnest.
This looks utterly gorgeous, proportions, detailing etc but it will be very expensive, what I want to see is more lower end EV's, the Leaf is pretty good I believe, but we need something a bit sexier and aspirational at a lower price point than the Tesla, the model 3 will go some way to address that, but there is a need for sub 30k EV's with credible ranges and a dash of the mental performance.
And keep an eye on China, I reckon they will want part of the EV action.
Don Colione said:
For me ... the biggest problem EVs have is their potential to leave you hanging during an emergency situation.
If you need to flee your location fast during a natural disaster or such (which can happen happen at any time), and haven't fully charged; you and your family could literally be dead.
Most 'ideal' 250 mile range marketing quotes are for cars that are new, have no passengers or extra weight, and are fully topped off. If not in ideal conditions, your range could be considerably less.
In an ICE, even if almost empty; I can find gas literally anywhere, fill up in minutes, and be outta there... if necessary.
The delayed charging times of EVs are also still a MAJOR negative.
Imagine trying to get some "supercharger" time during an emergency when everybody is forced to flee the area? Much less being in a long endless queue of cars evacuating in emergency traffic, trying to last with a full "charge" as long as possible while your 'range' ticks down by the minute due to 'parasitic' drain/losses; because your entire car is dependent on electricity to run.
I don't want to have to depend on automakers to generously give me 'over the air' range updates during such situations either....
An ICE could face some of these problems, but there is currently a permanent infrastructure in place to provide for millions on demand. If the power grid goes out, for any reason, you are screwed in an EV...
Gas stations can at least keep going with a back up generator during a power grid shut down.
Out of interest, how many natural disasters have you fled from?If you need to flee your location fast during a natural disaster or such (which can happen happen at any time), and haven't fully charged; you and your family could literally be dead.
Most 'ideal' 250 mile range marketing quotes are for cars that are new, have no passengers or extra weight, and are fully topped off. If not in ideal conditions, your range could be considerably less.
In an ICE, even if almost empty; I can find gas literally anywhere, fill up in minutes, and be outta there... if necessary.
The delayed charging times of EVs are also still a MAJOR negative.
Imagine trying to get some "supercharger" time during an emergency when everybody is forced to flee the area? Much less being in a long endless queue of cars evacuating in emergency traffic, trying to last with a full "charge" as long as possible while your 'range' ticks down by the minute due to 'parasitic' drain/losses; because your entire car is dependent on electricity to run.
I don't want to have to depend on automakers to generously give me 'over the air' range updates during such situations either....
An ICE could face some of these problems, but there is currently a permanent infrastructure in place to provide for millions on demand. If the power grid goes out, for any reason, you are screwed in an EV...
Gas stations can at least keep going with a back up generator during a power grid shut down.
Have you got your ‘bug out’ bag ready?
I’m not saying it’s an impossible scenario but for most people it’s probably not something that keeps them awake at night.
Perhaps I’m being selfish but then again Cambridge isn’t in the shade of an active volcano or sat on the San Andreas fault.
bodhi said:
You see I'm reading this and wondering what the hell people get up to at Motorway Service stations so that waiting for your golf buggy to charge takes no longer than filling a car up from empty? For instance as a rule, I don't stop to fill up until the light is on, in fact often I'll leave it until the range counter is showing less than 10 miles then stop off. To fill up 10 gallons, get a drink, pay and use the facilities, usually adds around 5 - 8 minutes to my ETA depending upon queues in there, then I'm on my way again. I really do doubt you'd be able to get any significant amount of charge in that time - in fact from friend's experience of Ecotricity, you'll probably still be on hold wondering why the charger isn't working.
I might re-appraise EV's in 10 years or so, but at the moment, for me, with recharge times and inability to use the performance without compromising the range, they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Translate this Audi's name into French and you'll pretty much sum up my view on them.
A UK fuel pump, pumps at about 30L/min, so assuming absolutely no one else is at the forecourt, it would take 2mins just to phyiscally fill the tank and probably about another 2 mins to pay. In a scenario when the only thing you're doing is filling up, and there's no one else waiting to fuel or pay, I can imagine you can feasibly do it in 5mins. In reality on long journeys most normal people will use it as a chance to have a wee and a/or a coffee, which genuinely takes a minimum of 10mins if you're doing both. So that's 15mins straight up.I might re-appraise EV's in 10 years or so, but at the moment, for me, with recharge times and inability to use the performance without compromising the range, they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Translate this Audi's name into French and you'll pretty much sum up my view on them.
Even in the 5 min example, a 350kWh Ionity charger would add 30kWh to this Audi (or the Porsche). If we assume absolutely terrible efficiency (which would be 30kWh/100km) that's still 60 miles on top of the maybe real world 220 miles.
If you go for a wee and coffee, it's 90kWh which is another 300km or 180 miles or range.
The Ionity chargers aren't everywhere at the moment, but they will be in the next year (when the e-Tron comes out). As many have said, EVs still aren't appropriate for absolutely everyone, but it is perfectly possible to do long journeys. Even using 50kWh chargers, it's really not much of an inconvenience, and the 350kWh ones the Taycan and e-Tron will charge from will basically match the convenience of Petrol/Diesel.
bodhi said:
You see I'm reading this and wondering what the hell people get up to at Motorway Service stations so that waiting for your golf buggy to charge takes no longer than filling a car up from empty? For instance as a rule, I don't stop to fill up until the light is on, in fact often I'll leave it until the range counter is showing less than 10 miles then stop off. To fill up 10 gallons, get a drink, pay and use the facilities, usually adds around 5 - 8 minutes to my ETA depending upon queues in there, then I'm on my way again. I really do doubt you'd be able to get any significant amount of charge in that time - in fact from friend's experience of Ecotricity, you'll probably still be on hold wondering why the charger isn't working.
I might re-appraise EV's in 10 years or so, but at the moment, for me, with recharge times and inability to use the performance without compromising the range, they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Translate this Audi's name into French and you'll pretty much sum up my view on them.
I'd go even further than this - this whole "going in" to petrol stations is so last year. You stop, you enter the pump number on the app, you fill, you drive away. The app has done the whole "paying thing" by the time I've shut the little flap over the filler and got back in the car. I might re-appraise EV's in 10 years or so, but at the moment, for me, with recharge times and inability to use the performance without compromising the range, they are as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Translate this Audi's name into French and you'll pretty much sum up my view on them.
The point about long journeys being niche is possibly true when you look at the "average" journey. But a car that can cope with 99% of your requirements isn't a lot of use when it struggles to handle the 1%.
964Cup said:
I don't normally rise the to ad hominem stuff, but I suspect it's time somebody explained how the world actually works for some of us. Let's do this really slowly.
We're not travelling to hotels. We're travelling to houses we own. The less time we spend getting to them, the more often we can go, and the more time we get to enjoy them. We could fly to Italy, but then we'd have to rent a car to get to our village from the airport, and from our flat to the ski lift. We'd also have to travel a lot lighter, put up with airports and air travellers, and adhere to someone else's schedule. It's cheaper, more efficient and more economical to drive. We can't install an EV charger in Italy because rural Italian infrastructure is some way behind the curve of modernity. We can't even run the kettle and the washing machine at the same time. You may laugh, but I have an Alp in my back garden, so it's not all bad.
We can't fly to France since no UK airline flies to our local airport any more. And we'd have to keep a car there anyway, because we're in the middle of the countryside where there is no public transport. We could take the train, but it's a fortune, involves changing trains at Paris, and takes about an hour and half longer door to door. So we drive. See also previous answer about keeping to our own schedule. Thanks to Flexiplus, we can come and go on a whim - that's a luxury I wouldn't give up even if they started flying to Deauville again. And no, sadly, we're not rich (or suicidal) enough for a helicopter.
I don't need a £100k toy car. I'm not 12, so I don't get all hot and sweaty over acceleration numbers. I don't find driving in the UK enjoyable; nor is driving enjoyably socially responsible when the roads are as crowded and badly-maintained as ours. I don't need a car to impress women, and (hot tip) it doesn't work anyway.
What I need is a large car in which to sit comfortably for a long time on cruise control. One that will accommodate my family and all our stuff (including but not limited to my newly-acquired collection of cat coffins) and that doesn't require me to spend hours planning a route that accommodates a half-arsed and inadequate refuelling infrastructure. We've had a succession of Range Rovers and Discoverys, but since JLR singularly failed to see the diesel backlash coming, we've got an XC90 T8 arriving in January. I wish it had greater electric range - it would be nice to be able to get all the way out of London on electricity only, but I doubt it will manage it, but it's at least a sop to ecological responsibility.
We also have a Fiat 500 twinair for my wife to tool about town in, since I can't wean her off driving, even though we're seeing a routine average speed in London of about 6mph (in other words it would be faster to jog). I thought about replacing it with something electric, and will probably do so out of conscience at some point, but the economics make no sense. It's essentially free - no tax, very low servicing costs, and for 2.5k miles a year the fuel costs are irrelevant.
Yes, we're an outlier. But then I want a car that suits me, not one that suits someone else. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to complain that no electric car comes close, given that there's no shortage of commodious ICE cars with 400-mile-plus ranges. I'd quite like it if, before they ban ICE completely, somebody came up with an electric vehicle that didn't require us to change our lifestyle completely.
What amuses me is that one of the main criticisms of the Bentley Continental GT W12 when it came out was that its real-world range was about 200 miles. This in a car you can refuel in 5 minutes, and one that fans of £100k toys who froth on about "lads' trips" in the pub apparently still dream about. We had an RS6 Avant a while ago (the original 4.2 bi-turbo thing). That had a real-world range of about 200 miles, too. I sold it and bought a Range Rover diesel after spending one trip to Italy repeatedly passing the same diesel Shogun. We were cruising at about 100 leptons. They weren't. But they also didn't have to stop every two hours to refuel, and they got there without ever having to watch their rear view mirror for a flic on a BMW 1100. Range matters.
When I bought a house for my wife in Italy I bought where I wouldn’t be reliant on Ryanair to keep flying into some tinpot ex military airbase or similar. We're not travelling to hotels. We're travelling to houses we own. The less time we spend getting to them, the more often we can go, and the more time we get to enjoy them. We could fly to Italy, but then we'd have to rent a car to get to our village from the airport, and from our flat to the ski lift. We'd also have to travel a lot lighter, put up with airports and air travellers, and adhere to someone else's schedule. It's cheaper, more efficient and more economical to drive. We can't install an EV charger in Italy because rural Italian infrastructure is some way behind the curve of modernity. We can't even run the kettle and the washing machine at the same time. You may laugh, but I have an Alp in my back garden, so it's not all bad.
We can't fly to France since no UK airline flies to our local airport any more. And we'd have to keep a car there anyway, because we're in the middle of the countryside where there is no public transport. We could take the train, but it's a fortune, involves changing trains at Paris, and takes about an hour and half longer door to door. So we drive. See also previous answer about keeping to our own schedule. Thanks to Flexiplus, we can come and go on a whim - that's a luxury I wouldn't give up even if they started flying to Deauville again. And no, sadly, we're not rich (or suicidal) enough for a helicopter.
I don't need a £100k toy car. I'm not 12, so I don't get all hot and sweaty over acceleration numbers. I don't find driving in the UK enjoyable; nor is driving enjoyably socially responsible when the roads are as crowded and badly-maintained as ours. I don't need a car to impress women, and (hot tip) it doesn't work anyway.
What I need is a large car in which to sit comfortably for a long time on cruise control. One that will accommodate my family and all our stuff (including but not limited to my newly-acquired collection of cat coffins) and that doesn't require me to spend hours planning a route that accommodates a half-arsed and inadequate refuelling infrastructure. We've had a succession of Range Rovers and Discoverys, but since JLR singularly failed to see the diesel backlash coming, we've got an XC90 T8 arriving in January. I wish it had greater electric range - it would be nice to be able to get all the way out of London on electricity only, but I doubt it will manage it, but it's at least a sop to ecological responsibility.
We also have a Fiat 500 twinair for my wife to tool about town in, since I can't wean her off driving, even though we're seeing a routine average speed in London of about 6mph (in other words it would be faster to jog). I thought about replacing it with something electric, and will probably do so out of conscience at some point, but the economics make no sense. It's essentially free - no tax, very low servicing costs, and for 2.5k miles a year the fuel costs are irrelevant.
Yes, we're an outlier. But then I want a car that suits me, not one that suits someone else. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to complain that no electric car comes close, given that there's no shortage of commodious ICE cars with 400-mile-plus ranges. I'd quite like it if, before they ban ICE completely, somebody came up with an electric vehicle that didn't require us to change our lifestyle completely.
What amuses me is that one of the main criticisms of the Bentley Continental GT W12 when it came out was that its real-world range was about 200 miles. This in a car you can refuel in 5 minutes, and one that fans of £100k toys who froth on about "lads' trips" in the pub apparently still dream about. We had an RS6 Avant a while ago (the original 4.2 bi-turbo thing). That had a real-world range of about 200 miles, too. I sold it and bought a Range Rover diesel after spending one trip to Italy repeatedly passing the same diesel Shogun. We were cruising at about 100 leptons. They weren't. But they also didn't have to stop every two hours to refuel, and they got there without ever having to watch their rear view mirror for a flic on a BMW 1100. Range matters.
Taxi to Heathrow, choose from several flights, hire car waiting at airport. Anything large gets FedEx’d in advance or for when we are there.
Really all that you are saying is that you bought properties in the wrong places to save money and this means that EVs aren’t of much use to you at this moment in time and that you think EVs are silly because of your personal life choices.
The other aspect worth considering for anyone who bought cheap in far flung parts of Europe because that area was momentarily serviced by a bucket airline is what’s going to happen to the value of the investment as the number of ICe cars capable of operating the train and plane replacement service begins to diminish?
You really do need to revisit your original post and note that your situation is of your own making. The EV industry never forced you to do anything, nor is it now. It will evolve to fill as many gaps as it can. Some people will fall on the other side but the point being made is that this is their personal choice. Just like your own very anomalous situation is 100% your own personal choice.
rxe said:
I'd go even further than this - this whole "going in" to petrol stations is so last year. You stop, you enter the pump number on the app, you fill, you drive away. The app has done the whole "paying thing" by the time I've shut the little flap over the filler and got back in the car.
What about all those signs plastered everywhere, imploring you not to use your mobile phone while refilling?bodhi said:
You see I'm reading this and wondering what the hell people get up to at Motorway Service stations so that waiting for your golf buggy to charge takes no longer than filling a car up from empty? For instance as a rule, I don't stop to fill up until the light is on, in fact often I'll leave it until the range counter is showing less than 10 miles then stop off. To fill up 10 gallons, get a drink, pay and use the facilities, usually adds around 5 - 8 minutes to my ETA depending upon queues in there, then I'm on my way again. I really do doubt you'd be able to get any significant amount of charge in that time - in fact from friend's experience of Ecotricity, you'll probably still be on hold wondering why the charger isn't working.
I assumed they are busy passing the time using those holes in the side of the cubicles? Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff