RE: TVR production likely delayed by factory setback
Discussion
Vaud said:
cidered77 said:
Why in the first few pages i've scrolled through in the comments is there so much negativity and almost antipathy toward them?
Yes of course it's hard, of course they have a long way to go, and I'll wager many of those deposit holders aren't holding their breath even for 2020 (i know one of them, and he's not); but at least they are having a go at resurrecting a great brand, and the concept is fundamentally sound. Want it to success, don't relish its failure!!!
A significant proportion of this community seems to be made of middle aged middle managers who haven't taken a risk in their life sitting back with arms crossed tutting whenever mildly brave is shared..
Because there is a difference between an entrepreneurial but proven and well financed business (like Ginetta) and what is increasingly looking like a white elephant (e.g. TVR, Circuit of Wales)... I admire entrepreneurs... but I have a gut feel that the TVR will never emerge.Yes of course it's hard, of course they have a long way to go, and I'll wager many of those deposit holders aren't holding their breath even for 2020 (i know one of them, and he's not); but at least they are having a go at resurrecting a great brand, and the concept is fundamentally sound. Want it to success, don't relish its failure!!!
A significant proportion of this community seems to be made of middle aged middle managers who haven't taken a risk in their life sitting back with arms crossed tutting whenever mildly brave is shared..
Circuit of Wales really was vapour - this has an order book, a concept, use of the iStream process, a prototype... a s
tload to be getting on with, but i want them to do it. Not revel in their failure from my keyboard. Having been a TVR owner in the past I sincerely hope the whole project gets off the ground and gives us something special
And I can’t help but ask what is probably a simpletons question, but...
All this to do with EU rules for tendering , EU rules for this that and the other, come another 56 days or so, give or take, couldnt TVR tell the RU ago getnatuffed and perform all of the tasks without the malign influence of Brussels Butt-fking them every way they turn?
Ok, I appreciate it’s not quite as easy as that but if we leave the EU tmwith ‘no deal’, which is looking quite likely, why do we have to be bound by, and recognise, their rules?
Surely it would make it easier for TVR?’
Again, please don’t shoot be down or berate me for asking the question, I don’t claim to understand the Machiavellian machinations of politics...
And I can’t help but ask what is probably a simpletons question, but...
All this to do with EU rules for tendering , EU rules for this that and the other, come another 56 days or so, give or take, couldnt TVR tell the RU ago getnatuffed and perform all of the tasks without the malign influence of Brussels Butt-f
king them every way they turn?Ok, I appreciate it’s not quite as easy as that but if we leave the EU tmwith ‘no deal’, which is looking quite likely, why do we have to be bound by, and recognise, their rules?
Surely it would make it easier for TVR?’
Again, please don’t shoot be down or berate me for asking the question, I don’t claim to understand the Machiavellian machinations of politics...
I do worry about this incarnation of TVR. These delays will be doing serious damage to their cashflow, both in the money from the sales not coming in and the deposits being refunded. And this was always seemed a very underfunded project from the off....
And they still really haven't done any of the hard bits yet - actually tooling up and training a workforce from scratch how to build a car....
The risk is now that corners will be cut, first delivered cars may be "still in development" - and I was one of the first owners of a Cerbera so know what that entails. Also the world is moving on - by the time the cars hit the market, they'll probably have new Boxsters, uprated Alpines and even a mid-engined Corvette to compete against....
And they still really haven't done any of the hard bits yet - actually tooling up and training a workforce from scratch how to build a car....
The risk is now that corners will be cut, first delivered cars may be "still in development" - and I was one of the first owners of a Cerbera so know what that entails. Also the world is moving on - by the time the cars hit the market, they'll probably have new Boxsters, uprated Alpines and even a mid-engined Corvette to compete against....
Augustus Windsock said:
Having been a TVR owner in the past I sincerely hope the whole project gets off the ground and gives us something special
And I can’t help but ask what is probably a simpletons question, but...
All this to do with EU rules for tendering , EU rules for this that and the other, come another 56 days or so, give or take, couldnt TVR tell the RU ago getnatuffed and perform all of the tasks without the malign influence of Brussels Butt-fking them every way they turn?
Ok, I appreciate it’s not quite as easy as that but if we leave the EU tmwith ‘no deal’, which is looking quite likely, why do we have to be bound by, and recognise, their rules?
Surely it would make it easier for TVR?’
Again, please don’t shoot be down or berate me for asking the question, I don’t claim to understand the Machiavellian machinations of politics...
I am not an expert... (caveat)And I can’t help but ask what is probably a simpletons question, but...
All this to do with EU rules for tendering , EU rules for this that and the other, come another 56 days or so, give or take, couldnt TVR tell the RU ago getnatuffed and perform all of the tasks without the malign influence of Brussels Butt-f
king them every way they turn?Ok, I appreciate it’s not quite as easy as that but if we leave the EU tmwith ‘no deal’, which is looking quite likely, why do we have to be bound by, and recognise, their rules?
Surely it would make it easier for TVR?’
Again, please don’t shoot be down or berate me for asking the question, I don’t claim to understand the Machiavellian machinations of politics...
The EU doesn't set laws. They set directives that are then codified by each counties parliament.
Public procurement rules are thus set in UK law, as are other EU directives - they will still apply after we leave, though we will be able change them over time. The plan is as I understand it to maintain the law all for now. They don't cease to apply.
https://www.out-law.com/page-5964
https://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/september...
So as I see it, the core rules about tendering will remain, but whether we have to use the OJEU portal will depend on hard exit vs transition period.
BigChiefmuffinAgain said:
I do worry about this incarnation of TVR. These delays will be doing serious damage to their cashflow, both in the money from the sales not coming in and the deposits being refunded. And this was always seemed a very underfunded project from the off....
And they still really haven't done any of the hard bits yet - actually tooling up and training a workforce from scratch how to build a car....
The risk is now that corners will be cut, first delivered cars may be "still in development" - and I was one of the first owners of a Cerbera so know what that entails. Also the world is moving on - by the time the cars hit the market, they'll probably have new Boxsters, uprated Alpines and even a mid-engined Corvette to compete against....
I agree, it's sitting in a really awkward place, too expensive to be a cheap light toy where idiosyncrasies can be overlooked and a very high bar is being set already by 570S's, R8's and the soon to be mid engined corvette.And they still really haven't done any of the hard bits yet - actually tooling up and training a workforce from scratch how to build a car....
The risk is now that corners will be cut, first delivered cars may be "still in development" - and I was one of the first owners of a Cerbera so know what that entails. Also the world is moving on - by the time the cars hit the market, they'll probably have new Boxsters, uprated Alpines and even a mid-engined Corvette to compete against....
Much as I like TVR and am an owner, I don't think their target market is clear.
Let hope it's fantastic and proves to be a huge success though.
There is a difference between wanting something to fail, and being realistic about the chances of success. And to the poster that suggests any naysayer is a middle manager that hasn't taken a risk, there is a slight difference between investing in a business, and being a customer who has paid a deposit in the expectation he will then pay more and a new car will appear!
I don't think anyone is suggesting they hope TVR, Ginetta or whoever it is fails. And maybe all those that put their TVR deposits down realise they could be at risk of the company falls over. I suspect there would be some uproar if this were to happen.
But the interesting aspect of all this is that with the right management and investment it can be done, one only has to look at Mclaren to see that. Cars are expensive to develop though (look at Tesla!) , and niche can work for semi racing, small scale manufacturers (Caterham, Ariel, and the like). But the jump to supercar is a big one, and it doesn't look too me as if TVR has either the management or investment to deliver. Without wanting to offend the Welsh, one only has to look at their choice of manufacturing base to realise that. Cheap is usually cheap for a reason!
I don't think anyone is suggesting they hope TVR, Ginetta or whoever it is fails. And maybe all those that put their TVR deposits down realise they could be at risk of the company falls over. I suspect there would be some uproar if this were to happen.
But the interesting aspect of all this is that with the right management and investment it can be done, one only has to look at Mclaren to see that. Cars are expensive to develop though (look at Tesla!) , and niche can work for semi racing, small scale manufacturers (Caterham, Ariel, and the like). But the jump to supercar is a big one, and it doesn't look too me as if TVR has either the management or investment to deliver. Without wanting to offend the Welsh, one only has to look at their choice of manufacturing base to realise that. Cheap is usually cheap for a reason!
cidered77 said:
In fairness, the Ginetta thread on their supercar announcement starts with someone going "zzzzz" - it's no different; miserable people wanting things to fail.
Circuit of Wales really was vapour - this has an order book, a concept, use of the iStream process, a prototype... a stload to be getting on with, but i want them to do it. Not revel in their failure from my keyboard.
It's easy to say people are just miserable.. I think mostly they just have their eyes open. Constant "leaks", teaser photos, silly numbers, unrealistic aims...it's all a bit tiresome. TVR have built a concept so far.. They're really not that much further on from there. Fine if they were going to hand build 5 cars a year, not fine if they actually want to get back into the sports car market. Circuit of Wales really was vapour - this has an order book, a concept, use of the iStream process, a prototype... a s
tload to be getting on with, but i want them to do it. Not revel in their failure from my keyboard. I love TVR, I grew up being terrified in the passenger seats of quite a few then bought the rattiest Chimera I could when I was 20 or so, and I'd love for them to start making affordable exotics again, but you have to cry b
ks when you see it! A bit more cynicism is a good thing.
Robert-nszl1 said:
There is a difference between wanting something to fail, and being realistic about the chances of success. And to the poster that suggests any naysayer is a middle manager that hasn't taken a risk, there is a slight difference between investing in a business, and being a customer who has paid a deposit in the expectation he will then pay more and a new car will appear!
I don't think anyone is suggesting they hope TVR, Ginetta or whoever it is fails. And maybe all those that put their TVR deposits down realise they could be at risk of the company falls over. I suspect there would be some uproar if this were to happen.
But the interesting aspect of all this is that with the right management and investment it can be done, one only has to look at Mclaren to see that. Cars are expensive to develop though (look at Tesla!) , and niche can work for semi racing, small scale manufacturers (Caterham, Ariel, and the like). But the jump to supercar is a big one, and it doesn't look too me as if TVR has either the management or investment to deliver. Without wanting to offend the Welsh, one only has to look at their choice of manufacturing base to realise that. Cheap is usually cheap for a reason!
oh come on - are all the miserable bI don't think anyone is suggesting they hope TVR, Ginetta or whoever it is fails. And maybe all those that put their TVR deposits down realise they could be at risk of the company falls over. I suspect there would be some uproar if this were to happen.
But the interesting aspect of all this is that with the right management and investment it can be done, one only has to look at Mclaren to see that. Cars are expensive to develop though (look at Tesla!) , and niche can work for semi racing, small scale manufacturers (Caterham, Ariel, and the like). But the jump to supercar is a big one, and it doesn't look too me as if TVR has either the management or investment to deliver. Without wanting to offend the Welsh, one only has to look at their choice of manufacturing base to realise that. Cheap is usually cheap for a reason!
ds on PH customers then? Nonsense they are. There is a clear inference of wanting this to fail this exist within many of these comments, and an almost perverse pleasure that they might. It has risk, clearly. But this looks a lot more credible that Circuit of Wales to me so far - so why not will them to succeed. Is my only point.
If I really sat down with Google, I bet I could list 40 or 50 companies who have launched sports road ( as opposed to track ) cars at this area of the market ( £60K to £125K, inflation adjusted ) in the last 50 years, and not one has succeeded. The best you can say is that maybe Lotus scrapes by...
And the market for sports cars is shrinking, as people buy more SUV's....
I really wish them well and admire what they have done, but those are tough odds.... The relatively low selling price ( compared to supercars ) means you are working on tighter margins and need correspondingly higher volumes. Not easy when you are up against Porsche et al.
And the market for sports cars is shrinking, as people buy more SUV's....
I really wish them well and admire what they have done, but those are tough odds.... The relatively low selling price ( compared to supercars ) means you are working on tighter margins and need correspondingly higher volumes. Not easy when you are up against Porsche et al.
Clearly I have no insight to the company nor am I that clued up on what it is made from or the I stream process for that. But in my many years of making food all over the world, if you have something new but not the cash/time/infrastructure/technology to develop it, you find someone to make it for you to start with and then invest to scale up if proven.
Mackofthejungle said:
It's easy to say people are just miserable.. I think mostly they just have their eyes open. Constant "leaks", teaser photos, silly numbers, unrealistic aims...it's all a bit tiresome. TVR have built a concept so far.. They're really not that much further on from there. Fine if they were going to hand build 5 cars a year, not fine if they actually want to get back into the sports car market.
I love TVR, I grew up being terrified in the passenger seats of quite a few then bought the rattiest Chimera I could when I was 20 or so, and I'd love for them to start making affordable exotics again, but you have to cry bks when you see it!
A bit more cynicism is a good thing.
I cannot imagine how more cynicism on pistonheads could in any way, shape, form or universe be a good thing. At all. I love TVR, I grew up being terrified in the passenger seats of quite a few then bought the rattiest Chimera I could when I was 20 or so, and I'd love for them to start making affordable exotics again, but you have to cry b
ks when you see it! A bit more cynicism is a good thing.
This is a forum for cars - objects of desire. Escapism. Whether a 40something who had Athena Testarossa posters as a kid, a max power refuge from the 90s, a track dayer, racer, etc etc.
Instead - most posts i scan, regardless of the subject matter, are filled with people queuing up to show how unimpressed they are. Even the Aston ****king Valkyrie thread is infected.
My point is not that this TVR project is without risk. but i'll wager your typical depositee does not come to this forum to judge that. People with that kind of disposable income tend not to be muppets. My point is that the underlying desire to see it fail, and to revel in pointing that out - not just here, but on anything new or brave, or exiting... or... anything for that matter. That is the problem. I just don't get why so much misery and negativity everywhere.
Anyway - it's Friday afternoon. You miserable old men can stick to pointing out the flaws in other people's business plans; i'm going to build a snowman.
cidered77 said:
oh come on - are all the miserable bds on PH customers then? Nonsense they are.
There is a clear inference of wanting this to fail this exist within many of these comments, and an almost perverse pleasure that they might. It has risk, clearly. But this looks a lot more credible that Circuit of Wales to me so far - so why not will them to succeed. Is my only point.
I don't want them to fail. But I see it as likely:ds on PH customers then? Nonsense they are. There is a clear inference of wanting this to fail this exist within many of these comments, and an almost perverse pleasure that they might. It has risk, clearly. But this looks a lot more credible that Circuit of Wales to me so far - so why not will them to succeed. Is my only point.
1. To put down a deposit on this, which is essential for the company to stand a chance, is a risky thing to do.
2. It's fine to take that risk, as long as you can afford it - as it is quite a significant deposit though, with a high risk of failure, that means you have to be decently well off to do it.
3. If you are well off enough to risk that sum of money, you are probably well off enough to afford something significantly more expensive and "better"
4. This limits the pool to those who either/or 1) don't see the risk to be that high, 2) really want a TVR
That pool is small, and delays to the project will a) put people off directly as they are now waiting 2 more years than they expected and b) make people more acutely aware of the risk and likely to pull out.
I'm not gloating on the possibility of failure, I just think that everything surrounding it does not paint an optimistic picture for logical reasons.
Robert-nszl1 said:
There is a difference between wanting something to fail, and being realistic about the chances of success. And to the poster that suggests any naysayer is a middle manager that hasn't taken a risk, there is a slight difference between investing in a business, and being a customer who has paid a deposit in the expectation he will then pay more and a new car will appear!
I don't think anyone is suggesting they hope TVR, Ginetta or whoever it is fails. And maybe all those that put their TVR deposits down realise they could be at risk of the company falls over. I suspect there would be some uproar if this were to happen.
I'm a long-term TVR owner but not a deposit holder, although I gave it serious thought. My view would have been 'hope for the best, plan for the worst' with regard to the deposit, ie if it doesn't work put and deposits aren't returned for whatever reason, well, so be it. I'm not saying that's a desired outcome but would have been my pragmatic view, particularly as there was limited definitive information initially. No doubt others have taken the same view.I don't think anyone is suggesting they hope TVR, Ginetta or whoever it is fails. And maybe all those that put their TVR deposits down realise they could be at risk of the company falls over. I suspect there would be some uproar if this were to happen.
I certainly wouldn't have viewed it as an 'investment' but was simply aware that the risks, as for any start-up, were higher than they might otherwise have been. As I do, I'm sure most deposit holders actually simply want what promises to be a great driver's car.
As with many threads on PH, there's lots of rubbish spouted by people who have little or no real-world idea or experience of anything they proffer their views on. Budding politicians, perhaps
I really hope TVR can make this work.
I can't speak for anyone else but perhaps the cynicism and negativity is a response to feeling let down? I really liked TVR, despite not managing to own one (I did get close a few times). I was upset when they stopped production and excited to hear plans to revive the brand. Initially it sounded like they had a chance of bringing TVR back from the grave. However, it now seems that what was promised was mainly bullst as many years later there are no cars, apparently no factory to build cars, one concept (which doesn't look as good to me as defunct TVRs) and a delivery date that regularly moves another 12 to 24 months away.
Personally I have "invested" my deposit on another resurrected British brand as I have a Norton Superlight on order.
t as many years later there are no cars, apparently no factory to build cars, one concept (which doesn't look as good to me as defunct TVRs) and a delivery date that regularly moves another 12 to 24 months away. Personally I have "invested" my deposit on another resurrected British brand as I have a Norton Superlight on order.
Edited by Esceptico on Friday 1st February 14:27
redroadster said:
Ginetta will be far better and available they have missed boat or buy a Supra for half price .
Ginetta will probably take even longer!Oh and the Supra... sorry but it's just not at all exciting to me. I don't think its actually particularly good looking (worse than the TVR certainly). And it's basically just a Z4 Coupe anyway... Frankly £54k base price for a 1500kg 335bhp Z4 (or probably about £60k with options OTR) isn't even remotely exciting compared to most in its sector now, I rather have an M2, Cayman, or an A110 for that money.
RiknRoll said:
Ginetta will probably take even longer!
Oh and the Supra... sorry but it's just not at all exciting to me. I don't think its actually particularly good looking (worse than the TVR certainly). And it's basically just a Z4 Coupe anyway... Frankly £54k base price for a 1500kg 335bhp Z4 (or probably about £60k with options OTR) isn't even remotely exciting compared to most in its sector now, I rather have an M2, Cayman, or an A110 for that money.
funny - I wouldn't put the Supra and TVR Griff in the same sentence - comparing mass produced badge engineered platform shared, over engineered coupe with what should be an eccentric, bit left field choice coupe built using non traditional monocoque steel pressed methodologies seems a bit unfair - I bet any potential customer would be firmly sat in one camp or the other.Oh and the Supra... sorry but it's just not at all exciting to me. I don't think its actually particularly good looking (worse than the TVR certainly). And it's basically just a Z4 Coupe anyway... Frankly £54k base price for a 1500kg 335bhp Z4 (or probably about £60k with options OTR) isn't even remotely exciting compared to most in its sector now, I rather have an M2, Cayman, or an A110 for that money.
I know some Griff DH's have bailed and bought AMV8's - where there is a little more similarity.
Augustus Windsock said:
Having been a TVR owner in the past I sincerely hope the whole project gets off the ground and gives us something special
And I can’t help but ask what is probably a simpletons question, but...
All this to do with EU rules for tendering , EU rules for this that and the other, come another 56 days or so, give or take, couldnt TVR tell the RU ago getnatuffed and perform all of the tasks without the malign influence of Brussels Butt-fking them every way they turn?
Ok, I appreciate it’s not quite as easy as that but if we leave the EU tmwith ‘no deal’, which is looking quite likely, why do we have to be bound by, and recognise, their rules?
Surely it would make it easier for TVR?’
Again, please don’t shoot be down or berate me for asking the question, I don’t claim to understand the Machiavellian machinations of politics...
EU tendering rules are no big deal , certainly nothing like as big a deal as some(especially TVR ) are making out , presumably to display their Brexit credentials. And . of course , they don't stop TVR doing whatever it likes with its own money , such as appointing any contractor it wants without any tendering exercise at all .And I can’t help but ask what is probably a simpletons question, but...
All this to do with EU rules for tendering , EU rules for this that and the other, come another 56 days or so, give or take, couldnt TVR tell the RU ago getnatuffed and perform all of the tasks without the malign influence of Brussels Butt-f
king them every way they turn?Ok, I appreciate it’s not quite as easy as that but if we leave the EU tmwith ‘no deal’, which is looking quite likely, why do we have to be bound by, and recognise, their rules?
Surely it would make it easier for TVR?’
Again, please don’t shoot be down or berate me for asking the question, I don’t claim to understand the Machiavellian machinations of politics...
But if you are the beneficiary of public money the law prescribes that some processes need to be followed -and even if we were not in the EU , some strings would be attached . And , when insufficient strings are attached , you risk the huge waste of public money that was De Lorean ...
In short it is disingenuous to take tax payers money for a sports car project and then moan about the small print . The stuff which TVR have , or should have , known about from their own lawyers and advisers from day one . Or maybe due diligence is a bit girly for them ...
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