RE: TVR production likely delayed by factory setback
Discussion
Some Gump said:
Oh come on, OJEU isn't exactly rocket science to anyone with any sales or procurement experience. If they really wanted an operational factory by Q1, the time to do this process was a long time ago indeed!
I also thinking "blame the government" is a very, very poor line if their leadership wants any credibility. If they want to actually deliver, their leadership team can't accept excuses for failure, they have to act in advance to prevent failure.
This. How the hell could they only just realise they need to put it out to tender on OJEU? The Welsh Government do this stuff all the time. Major cock up and now trying to blame the EU. So now they have to write a tender document and issue it with a reasonable bid deadline. Then they have to evaluate them and issue a contract once they have spent weeks going over the T&C’s. Then they can start the works. AND they haven’t even sourced all the parts. So how can they know how much it will cost to build accurately?I also thinking "blame the government" is a very, very poor line if their leadership wants any credibility. If they want to actually deliver, their leadership team can't accept excuses for failure, they have to act in advance to prevent failure.
This smacks of total naivety/incompetence or deliberate BS to get deposits. Delorean springs to mind. Those with deposits are brave.
Just another lame smokescreen excuse, and quite bad business ethics to try to blame a concern that is throwing large amounts of free money at them.
The process will be bread and butter to the civil servants sorting it out, so no way is it suddenly news to tvr!
As the article mentions even if the factory was good to go, then tvr have not sorted out the parts anyway.
Always someone else's fault with this mob, they have no shame it seems.
The process will be bread and butter to the civil servants sorting it out, so no way is it suddenly news to tvr!
As the article mentions even if the factory was good to go, then tvr have not sorted out the parts anyway.
Always someone else's fault with this mob, they have no shame it seems.
This is worrying news indeed. The factory part is bad enough, but as others have said this couldn't have come as a surprise to all involved. This type of stuff should be bread and butter to the people who put the deal together and if they haven't even got to the point of sending the contracts out to tender yet then nothing is going to happen any time soon as far as producing a car is concerned. It could be months before the contracts are finalised and many more months before work starts.
Depending on the state of the factory and what level of work it needs, plus the level of automation they wish to include in the process it could realistically be 2020/21 before the cars start rolling off the line. The lack of 25% of the parts at this stage when they were planning on being up and running in Q1 of 2019 is a joke.
I work in the automotive supply chain. We supply most of the major OEM's plus tier one and two suppliers to the OEM's. We make a fairly uninteresting component in the vehicles but the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes to get it into production is mind boggling. As an example we are just starting to supply parts into an OEM for a new model that is about to launch. I've been involved in the project since about March last year, and it was going on way before that with the Request For Quotation probably being 12 months before i became involved. Just to produce one component for this new model invovled the biggest single capital investment our plant has ever had, with lots of new machinery coming in to produce it. I was in charge of the installation phase of this project, which necessitated the digging out and reinforcing of the factory floor, installation of a new gantry crane, new electricity, chilled water, compressed air and network supplies to the new machinery. I had to go to Italy in February to do final sign off on some of the downline equipment. Even since this part of the project has finished it's been months of product maturation going through gate reviews with the customer to achieve an "off tool, off process" product that meets their required run at rate. If TVR have yet to source 25% of their parts for the new model then there is absolutely no hope in hell of getting it in place by Q1 next year. Again i'd say Q1 2020 is more realistic to have all of this finalised and in place.
I've been wondering what was going on with them, as the business is regstered in Ebbw Vale, but being from the surrounding area and working in the automotve sector i've heard nothing about them recruiting yet, even for the important stuff such as program managers, process engineers etc. AM on the other hand have been hoovering people up for quite some time (we've lost several to them). I hope they prove me wrong as I'd love to see them be a success but at this point in time I'm not holding my breath on it. It's quickly turning into another Circuit of Wales scenario, where some people will have lined their pockets nicely whilst the rest get burned.
Depending on the state of the factory and what level of work it needs, plus the level of automation they wish to include in the process it could realistically be 2020/21 before the cars start rolling off the line. The lack of 25% of the parts at this stage when they were planning on being up and running in Q1 of 2019 is a joke.
I work in the automotive supply chain. We supply most of the major OEM's plus tier one and two suppliers to the OEM's. We make a fairly uninteresting component in the vehicles but the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes to get it into production is mind boggling. As an example we are just starting to supply parts into an OEM for a new model that is about to launch. I've been involved in the project since about March last year, and it was going on way before that with the Request For Quotation probably being 12 months before i became involved. Just to produce one component for this new model invovled the biggest single capital investment our plant has ever had, with lots of new machinery coming in to produce it. I was in charge of the installation phase of this project, which necessitated the digging out and reinforcing of the factory floor, installation of a new gantry crane, new electricity, chilled water, compressed air and network supplies to the new machinery. I had to go to Italy in February to do final sign off on some of the downline equipment. Even since this part of the project has finished it's been months of product maturation going through gate reviews with the customer to achieve an "off tool, off process" product that meets their required run at rate. If TVR have yet to source 25% of their parts for the new model then there is absolutely no hope in hell of getting it in place by Q1 next year. Again i'd say Q1 2020 is more realistic to have all of this finalised and in place.
I've been wondering what was going on with them, as the business is regstered in Ebbw Vale, but being from the surrounding area and working in the automotve sector i've heard nothing about them recruiting yet, even for the important stuff such as program managers, process engineers etc. AM on the other hand have been hoovering people up for quite some time (we've lost several to them). I hope they prove me wrong as I'd love to see them be a success but at this point in time I'm not holding my breath on it. It's quickly turning into another Circuit of Wales scenario, where some people will have lined their pockets nicely whilst the rest get burned.
Edited by Avus Blue on Monday 3rd December 20:55
Avus Blue said:
This is worrying news indeed. The factory part is bad enough, but as others have said this couldn't have come as a surprise to all involved. This type of stuff should be bread and butter to the people who put the deal together and if they haven't even got to the point of sending the contracts out to tender yet then nothing is going to happen any time soon as far as producing a car is concerned. It could be months before the contracts are finalised and many more months before work starts.
Depending on the state of the factory and what level of work it needs, plus the level of automation they wish to include in the process it could realistically be 2020/21 before the cars start rolling off the line. The lack of 25% of the parts at this stage when they were planning on being up and running in Q1 of 2019 is a joke.
I work in the automotive supply chain. We supply most of the major OEM's plus tier one and two suppliers to the OEM's. We make a fairly uninteresting component in the vehicles but the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes to get it into production is mind boggling. As an example we are just starting to supply parts into an OEM for a new model that is about to launch. I've been involved in the project since about March last year, and it was going on way before that with the Request For Quotation probably being 12 months before i became involved. Just to produce one component for this new model invovled the biggest single capital investment our plant has ever had, with lots of new machinery coming in to produce it. I was in charge of the installation phase of this project, which necessitated the digging out and reinforcing of the factory floor, installation of a new gantry crane, new electricity, chilled water, compressed air and network supplies to the new machinery. I had to go to Italy in February to do final sign off on some of the downline equipment. Even since this part of the project has finished it's been months of product maturation going through gate reviews with the customer to achieve an "off tool, off process" product that meets their required run at rate. If TVR have yet to source 25% of their parts for the new model then there is absolutely no hope in hell of getting it in place by Q1 next year. Again i'd say Q1 2020 is more realistic to have all of this finalised and in place.
I've been wondering what was going on with them, as the business is regstered in Ebbw Vale, but being from the surrounding area and working in the automotve sector i've heard nothing about them recruiting yet, even for the import stuff such as program managers, process engineers etc. AM on the other hand have been hoovering people up for quite some time (we've lost several to them). I hope they prove me wrong as I'd love to see them be a success but at this point in time I'm not holding my breath on it. It's quickly turning into another Circuit of Wales scenario, where some people will have lined their pockets nicely whilst the rest get burned.
Welsh Govt Fund has Excalibur advising it which is run by a fellow called Sir Christopher Evans of "cash for honours" fame. Depending on the state of the factory and what level of work it needs, plus the level of automation they wish to include in the process it could realistically be 2020/21 before the cars start rolling off the line. The lack of 25% of the parts at this stage when they were planning on being up and running in Q1 of 2019 is a joke.
I work in the automotive supply chain. We supply most of the major OEM's plus tier one and two suppliers to the OEM's. We make a fairly uninteresting component in the vehicles but the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes to get it into production is mind boggling. As an example we are just starting to supply parts into an OEM for a new model that is about to launch. I've been involved in the project since about March last year, and it was going on way before that with the Request For Quotation probably being 12 months before i became involved. Just to produce one component for this new model invovled the biggest single capital investment our plant has ever had, with lots of new machinery coming in to produce it. I was in charge of the installation phase of this project, which necessitated the digging out and reinforcing of the factory floor, installation of a new gantry crane, new electricity, chilled water, compressed air and network supplies to the new machinery. I had to go to Italy in February to do final sign off on some of the downline equipment. Even since this part of the project has finished it's been months of product maturation going through gate reviews with the customer to achieve an "off tool, off process" product that meets their required run at rate. If TVR have yet to source 25% of their parts for the new model then there is absolutely no hope in hell of getting it in place by Q1 next year. Again i'd say Q1 2020 is more realistic to have all of this finalised and in place.
I've been wondering what was going on with them, as the business is regstered in Ebbw Vale, but being from the surrounding area and working in the automotve sector i've heard nothing about them recruiting yet, even for the import stuff such as program managers, process engineers etc. AM on the other hand have been hoovering people up for quite some time (we've lost several to them). I hope they prove me wrong as I'd love to see them be a success but at this point in time I'm not holding my breath on it. It's quickly turning into another Circuit of Wales scenario, where some people will have lined their pockets nicely whilst the rest get burned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_for_Honours
Sir Christopher Evans separately investigated by the Serious Fraud Office https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/s...
Cleared by the SFO Sir Chris still retains the exclusive right to advise the Welsh Fund to this day. Bet he's the first customer with a car on his drive if a TVR ever actually makes it out of the factory.
I refer the house to comment I made 2 years ago:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Such lengthy delays will give them time to work the car's design - it is not quite a thing of beauty and by the time it eventually hits the road it will have lost its impact and will look rather dated.
I would imagine that it would have quite a long lifecycle ahead of it so will need to have more timeless appeal to stay the distance. The 90's Griffith got it right from the start and has lost none of it's visual appeal since - I hope this opportunity to refine the car is not lost. (Just look to the Mazda RX-Vision for inspiration https://www.mazda.co.uk/aboutmazda/concept-cars/rx...
I would imagine that it would have quite a long lifecycle ahead of it so will need to have more timeless appeal to stay the distance. The 90's Griffith got it right from the start and has lost none of it's visual appeal since - I hope this opportunity to refine the car is not lost. (Just look to the Mazda RX-Vision for inspiration https://www.mazda.co.uk/aboutmazda/concept-cars/rx...
wab172uk said:
Load of b
ks
Bet Germany or France would just ignore the ruling, allow internal tendering and get it built.
Delayed factory, delayed parts sourcing, and delayed production = annoyed customers.
In todays fickle world of `must have the latest toy` some of those customers will demand their deposits back, and purchase something else..
It's got the makings of another doomed British built cottage industry car maker. If it does get off the ground, someone must remind them to keep the same car design for the next 30 years.
Of course they would ignore it, as evidenced by the large number of French and German small sports car companies all of whom receive copious state support!ksBet Germany or France would just ignore the ruling, allow internal tendering and get it built.
Delayed factory, delayed parts sourcing, and delayed production = annoyed customers.
In todays fickle world of `must have the latest toy` some of those customers will demand their deposits back, and purchase something else..
It's got the makings of another doomed British built cottage industry car maker. If it does get off the ground, someone must remind them to keep the same car design for the next 30 years.
It should be noted that the very basis of the EU is basically the result of horse trading between the UK, France and Germany. The EU being structured around liberal economics, markets and competition (which this law is a constituent of) is very much the UK contribution!
Also it is notable that in terms of contracts put in the OJEU the UK places far fewer than one would expect given the size of the UK economy vs the rest of the EU's. This probably down to their being fewer state owned companies and the UK NHS being uniquely socialist.
The principle issue I have with bringing back TVR was that the business plan never had a solid reason why you would want to other than nostalgia.
We used to have a booming industry in small amateurish companies making sports cars, they produced cars in niches that the largest companies didn't and got away with poorer quality because of it.
Since that time expectations in terms of refinement, safety and reliability have increased vastly beyond what those old speciality car companies could achieve and mainstream manufacturers have engaged in producing ever more extreme performance and luxury cars.
This new TVR is competing head on with the Aston Martin Vantage, AMG-GTR, Porsche 911, Mclaren 570 etc which have serious capital and engineering resources behind them. New TVR isn't meeting an unaddressed need in an expanding market.
I'd compare and contrast with Rivian which has managed to get $540 million of funding and recruit serious industry heavyweights and buy an old Mitsubishi factory.
Their first product a full size electric pick-up is addressing a market which is currently unaddressed with incumbents uninterested in disrupting themselves. Yet they can also point to the Tesla experience which is that if you turn up with a cool electric car it will dominate its segment and also entice a large number of people to pay a premium to own it (most Tesla buyers are trading up from much cheaper cars).
Edited by Talksteer on Monday 3rd December 23:31
So, TVR wanted to deliver the first 500 cars in the new year. If they were in plan, they would be assembling #455 as of this post, assuming Christmas is celebrated in Wales, and they manage to get three cars assembled per working day.
However, on December 3, we learn that the car's arrival [has been pushed] back to next summer or even beyond. One month before the anticipated start of deliveries, it becomes clear that there is a delay of nine months or more. On a side note, we also learn that 25% of the car's parts are not sourced.
To me, it sounds like Les Edgar is not in control of his venture; nobody is in control of that venture. I wonder what the project plans look like for the car's development, the factory, and the industrialisation of the car. 25% of the components not sourced!! That means, they are not developed yet, and there are no supply chain commitments! How can this delay be a surprise!? I see many deposits being called off.
However, on December 3, we learn that the car's arrival [has been pushed] back to next summer or even beyond. One month before the anticipated start of deliveries, it becomes clear that there is a delay of nine months or more. On a side note, we also learn that 25% of the car's parts are not sourced.
To me, it sounds like Les Edgar is not in control of his venture; nobody is in control of that venture. I wonder what the project plans look like for the car's development, the factory, and the industrialisation of the car. 25% of the components not sourced!! That means, they are not developed yet, and there are no supply chain commitments! How can this delay be a surprise!? I see many deposits being called off.
All this goes to show that car manufacturing is not a trivial business. I was at the the Lamborghini factory earlier this year and was struck by how it is transformed under Audi (VAG) ownership. The days of hammering things together in sheds are truly over.
Much as I love an underdog, its going to take more than a few bob from the Welsh authorities to make the new TVR a success.
Limp stories about not factoring in EU public procurement rules hardly increase confidence.
And it would be a shame if it did not succeed because the car looks like it has real potential.
Much as I love an underdog, its going to take more than a few bob from the Welsh authorities to make the new TVR a success.
Limp stories about not factoring in EU public procurement rules hardly increase confidence.
And it would be a shame if it did not succeed because the car looks like it has real potential.
Max_Torque said:
RacerMike said:
If only 75% of the components have been sourced, they're miles away from a saleable car anyway. Even if all 100% of it was sourced, they'd need a minimum of 18 months to develop the car into something that works properly, and given the complete lack of their presence at any industry development locations, I'd suggest they haven't even started development yet.
I look forward to their return, but it's possible the owners are starting to realise that it's a long old road from concept to production these days.
This ^^^ x 100I look forward to their return, but it's possible the owners are starting to realise that it's a long old road from concept to production these days.
I've always said there claimed timing was ridiculously optimistic, right from the word go, even assuming a decent funding (and credit) path. So far, they've (hand) built a single prototype using prototype (not off-tools or off-process) parts, well sorry, i hate to break it to you, but that amounts to nothing more than a show car really (and the big OE's, and even some small ones, now build several of those every year to do the show rounds). Getting from that protoype to a validated, warranted "Line built" production version is massively, massively time consuming and hugely costly. If they want to get to market in the near future (before the car becomes obsolete itself) then they need to build a short series of hand built prototypes and sell 'em to keen buyers who are happy to put up with the (inevitable) foibles to drive a unique car........
(also, i wonder by what rating the "25%" as yet un-sourced is calculated? By mass, by cost, by number? The big ticket items (enigne/gearbox/chassis etc) are actually the easy bits, it's the small, complex, fiddly bits like door seals, or sunvisors, or internal window channels etc etc that generally cause the snagging list to grow at an alarming rate as most prototypes move towards production)
Agree with Racer Mike. 25% of parts yet to be sourced? Miles away from production and this will have been obvious for many months. Right about OJEU too, but any procurement person would know that.. and possibly want to use jeu anyway to get the best deal.
finally, I like the factory frame and glue some walls on it comment, they could even do it in a way which means the factory needs dismantling each time you need to get a car out...
finally, I like the factory frame and glue some walls on it comment, they could even do it in a way which means the factory needs dismantling each time you need to get a car out...
Pure speculation but could it be that they have deliberately been hedging to wait for April, already have a plan in place and can spend the next 5 months purely focussing on getting the car sorted?
By speculation sadly I mean wishful thinking. Also if that was the case - wouldn't you just say so, unless there were other interests at play..
By speculation sadly I mean wishful thinking. Also if that was the case - wouldn't you just say so, unless there were other interests at play..
Avus Blue said:
The lack of 25% of the parts at this stage when they were planning on being up and running in Q1 of 2019 is a joke.
Agreed, there's the basis of the 'cover story' because by blaming the EU or the Government, many will simply nod and move on without worrying that there's no production plan and supply chain anywhere near ready. Maybe they are going to offer it as a part build and leave people to finish it off themselves with off the shelf products from other car manufacturers? Perhaps it's going to be another Westfield or Caterham self assembly project?
cookie1600 said:
Agreed, there's the basis of the 'cover story' because by blaming the EU or the Government, many will simply nod and move on without worrying that there's no production plan and supply chain anywhere near ready.
Maybe they are going to offer it as a part build and leave people to finish it off themselves with off the shelf products from other car manufacturers? Perhaps it's going to be another Westfield or Caterham self assembly project?
I'd be interested to see how many people who had paid a deposit on a 90k car would receive that news and go 'oh, yeah fair enough'Maybe they are going to offer it as a part build and leave people to finish it off themselves with off the shelf products from other car manufacturers? Perhaps it's going to be another Westfield or Caterham self assembly project?
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