How does a electric car compare with a diesel performance
Discussion
kambites said:
This is my conundrum really. I don't really want to buy another ICE powered family car but I'm not convinced our Octavia is going to last long enough for the current generation of EVs to drop into my normal price range.
Family hatch - ZOE/Leaf/e-Golf/ioniqCUV - Kona EV / Soul
SUV - Tesla X / i-Pace / Niro
But still, the only 'family saloon' is the Model S (maybe Model 3). Still can't quite work out why no other manufacturers make a BEV in this sector. Lack of fleet interest perhaps? Plenty of PHEV.
Edited by essayer on Friday 7th December 14:24
Don't get me wrong I love my 5.0l V8 but as an engineer, the simplicity of EVs makes ICE cars look ridiculous. You're probably replacing 500+ moving parts with less than half a dozen. There's also no need for a gearbox either. It's a no brainer really.
If we had always been driving EVs and someone came up with the internal combustion engine now, he'd probably be laughed out of the room.
If we had always been driving EVs and someone came up with the internal combustion engine now, he'd probably be laughed out of the room.
RizzoTheRat said:
HD Adam said:
But, do you think any Govt. or local council will be able to put the charging points & infrastructure in the next 5 years?
Lot's of the UK looks like this.
Parking's similar to that around where I'm living a the moment in the Netherlands, there's about 15 or 20 charge points within 100 yds of my flat. They just have a post on the side of the road with marked up space either side of it. If you buy an EV or a PHEV you register it with the municipality so they know the requirement, and they're trying to increase the number of charge points in line with the need.Lot's of the UK looks like this.
I used to live in Holland and was always struck by how much more environmentally friendly they were.
But this is the UK I'm talking about.
The Govt have had 2 years to prepare for a "no deal" Brexit and have failed miserably to do that.
It wouldn't be beyond our clowns to do something like ban all ICE yet not have charging points in place.
gazza285 said:
ATG said:
Do you have a petrol station at home?
Can you add a 600 mile charge in the time it takes to fill a diesel tank? 150 miles a week, in a 60kWh car is anything from 1 hour on a 50kw rapid to 20 minutes if you can do 150kw charging. Or you could charge once a fortnight at work etc
This is probably a dumb question, but here goes anyway.
I had a trip up the M6 recently & stopped at Tebay in both directions. They've had a charge point in the petrol station for years, but now seem to have a whole section of the car park with white Tesla branded chargers, each about the size of a petrol pump.
Can those chargers only charge a Tesla or will they charge a Zoe/Leaf/Outlander etc? If they're charging a non-Tesla vehicle, do they only do it on a "slow" charge or can you get fast or relatively fast charging? I noticed there were a fair number of cars in there, but other than a couple of Tesla SUVs, didn't really notice what they were!
I had a trip up the M6 recently & stopped at Tebay in both directions. They've had a charge point in the petrol station for years, but now seem to have a whole section of the car park with white Tesla branded chargers, each about the size of a petrol pump.
Can those chargers only charge a Tesla or will they charge a Zoe/Leaf/Outlander etc? If they're charging a non-Tesla vehicle, do they only do it on a "slow" charge or can you get fast or relatively fast charging? I noticed there were a fair number of cars in there, but other than a couple of Tesla SUVs, didn't really notice what they were!
I had a ZOE for 2 years when Renault were giving them away for free on PCP. It had an earth shattering 79bhp as I recall. Still its true about the torque at 0rpm. It suprised quite a few bigger cars off the lights! its just a shame the torque reduces in a linear fashion as the rpms rise. So once you are above 30mph it is a slow car and on the motorway it was out of its comfort zone a little.
Never drove a leaf but before I got the ZOE when I had my 230bhp MR2 I got mugged by one at the tyne tunnel booths. Darn thing was off like a scolded cat.
I'm back in an ICE again (Fez ST) now as I'm too much of a petrol head but for school runs and getting from a to b cheap and with no fuss I do miss the ZOE.
Never drove a leaf but before I got the ZOE when I had my 230bhp MR2 I got mugged by one at the tyne tunnel booths. Darn thing was off like a scolded cat.
I'm back in an ICE again (Fez ST) now as I'm too much of a petrol head but for school runs and getting from a to b cheap and with no fuss I do miss the ZOE.
At the moment only Tesla vehicles can use Tesla chargers, but this is purely a licensing issue. It would make a hell of a lot of sense to have a proper mandatory standard that is followed by all charger manufacturers, so that everyone at least gets the known minimum standard of service.
PurpleTurtle said:
Couldn't agree more. My buddy and fellow PH-er ElectricSoup has a Leaf for precisely these reasosn and I was staggered at how good it is for the usage you describe when he let me have a go.
I'd have one in a heartbeat to replace our Honda mumtruck were it not for the fact that we occasionally need to tow with that and towing is a no-no with EVs, as far as I understand.
The Model X can tow. I'm not aware of any other EV that has been officially homologated for towing, though others have been used for it, but it's certainly not a property of all EVs that they can't tow.I'd have one in a heartbeat to replace our Honda mumtruck were it not for the fact that we occasionally need to tow with that and towing is a no-no with EVs, as far as I understand.
essayer said:
austinsmirk said:
currently, as a second car: you'd never have anything else once you've experienced it.
+1And the second car argument is gradually falling away - much more investment in rapid charging, destination charging, 60kWh batteries giving 200 mile+ range ...
we have an i3 as a second car that Mrs Peep drives and now the S3 has gone, i find myself 'running out of milk' on the odd evening just so i can go have a giggle
wst said:
At the moment only Tesla vehicles can use Tesla chargers, but this is purely a licensing issue. It would make a hell of a lot of sense to have a proper mandatory standard that is followed by all charger manufacturers, so that everyone at least gets the known minimum standard of service.
Not entirely true.Tesla superchargers can only be used by approved Tesla's (not black listed cars) and they use a proprietary system that is not inline with the Type 2 standard (despite that being the shape of the plug).
Tesla destination chargers (see at hotels) are either red or white signed, and you'll usually more red than white. Red can only be used by Tesla (again, protected by proprietary technology) but white can be used by any Type 2 vehicle.
There are many hilarious photos of non-Tesla owners parking at odd angles to try and use a Tesla Supercharger because the plug fits (but supercharger cables are very shortz designed only to reach rear left corner of a vehicle).
rainmakerraw said:
MrOrange said:
A Tesla over the same distance would cost you a tenner and dump nothing into the lungs of our upcoming generation.
Nothing? Are you quite sure? Even if we ignore the copious quantities of pollution emitted during the mining, refining, manufacture and distribution of rare earth elements and metals for batteries, there is also the question of particulate matter. That nefarious stuff that gets deep into the lungs and causes cardio-pulmonary disease and early death. Diesel usually gets the finger for this one, but actually studies show that most PM pollution comes from non-tailpipe emissions such as tyres, brakes and re-suspension of matter from the road surface. Studies also repeatedly show that EVs give out the same amount of PM pollution/emissions as ICE vehicles even without tailpipe emissions (in part due to their extra weight). In low speed limit areas, especially those with speed humps et al., PM levels are dangerously high. Ironically this is most prevalent around schools and in residential housing adjoining main roads.
I have no beef whatsoever with EVs, but let's not pretend they're kissing children as they pass on by.
Source.
Source.
Source.
ETA - Ahh bum. The Model 3 does indeed use rare earth in it's motor(s) although the S and X don't. Good job rare earth metals aren't particularly rare then...
Edited by AnotherClarkey on Friday 7th December 16:33
feef said:
gazza285 said:
ATG said:
Do you have a petrol station at home?
Can you add a 600 mile charge in the time it takes to fill a diesel tank? Do you spend only 10 minutes at home?
Evanivitch said:
Not entirely true.
Tesla superchargers can only be used by approved Tesla's (not black listed cars) and they use a proprietary system that is not inline with the Type 2 standard (despite that being the shape of the plug).
Tesla destination chargers (see at hotels) are either red or white signed, and you'll usually more red than white. Red can only be used by Tesla (again, protected by proprietary technology) but white can be used by any Type 2 vehicle.
There are many hilarious photos of non-Tesla owners parking at odd angles to try and use a Tesla Supercharger because the plug fits (but supercharger cables are very shortz designed only to reach rear left corner of a vehicle).
Remember Tesla chargers (both destination and supercharger) are paid for by Tesla. Tesla superchargers can only be used by approved Tesla's (not black listed cars) and they use a proprietary system that is not inline with the Type 2 standard (despite that being the shape of the plug).
Tesla destination chargers (see at hotels) are either red or white signed, and you'll usually more red than white. Red can only be used by Tesla (again, protected by proprietary technology) but white can be used by any Type 2 vehicle.
There are many hilarious photos of non-Tesla owners parking at odd angles to try and use a Tesla Supercharger because the plug fits (but supercharger cables are very shortz designed only to reach rear left corner of a vehicle).
Destination chargers are typically fitted in pairs with 1 open to public use.
European superchargers are going to be back fitted with ccs very shortly, that might end up allowing other manufacturers to charge but there's still no option for it
I am sure if there was no option but EV's people would make them work.
They will get better, look how unpleasant diesel cars were 30 years ago, with each passing month they are being developed and will get better and better, remember how the internet was 20 years ago, slow ! and people said data speeds over phone lines wouldnt get any faster, they did.
Also, EV's dont work for every person, for every journey, thats fine, carry on what what works for you until such time as you want an EV, failing that, we all shuffle off eventually and this is much, much bigger than any individual, its going to happen, it is happening.
The comments about electric motors being better from an engineering standpoint and making IC engines look a bit ridiculous are very true, we love IC engines because we are familiar with them and they make noises, heat and vibrate, they would never have been invented had battery storage been up to the job in the early days of motoring, nobody would have thought, hang on, we need a machine that burns distilled dead things in a complicated, noisy, hot and inefficient mechanical ballet with parts occupying the same space every 1000 th of a second that collide if it goes wrong.
We have an affinity with IC engines, we are stuck with that, like the old bloke in the pub rattling on about long dead bands we have no interest in, people in the future wotn have grown up with V8's and all that, they might struggle to see past the noisy and smelly aspect.
We need to separate what is good for transport, society and humanity from what we prefer, or what works for us, I am pretty objective and realise I have a choice, at some point in my lifespan an EV of some description in inevitable but my past dictates a desire for engines, but someone born today, when they are 48, probably wont give a toss.
Cars usurped horses as transport, I am sure some bemoaned that, cars dont have as much soul or something, well guess they dont as a living breathing creature but I dont want my transport to kick me in the b
ks if I dont give it a sugar lump, and consumers wont want old fashioned IC engines int he future.
Things change, we only last so long, we get replaced, get used to it and enjoy it, still plenty of time to enjoy IC engined cars, and perhaps reap the benefits, if it works for you, of the EV, you may actually like it, most owners seem to, just keep an open mind.
They will get better, look how unpleasant diesel cars were 30 years ago, with each passing month they are being developed and will get better and better, remember how the internet was 20 years ago, slow ! and people said data speeds over phone lines wouldnt get any faster, they did.
Also, EV's dont work for every person, for every journey, thats fine, carry on what what works for you until such time as you want an EV, failing that, we all shuffle off eventually and this is much, much bigger than any individual, its going to happen, it is happening.
The comments about electric motors being better from an engineering standpoint and making IC engines look a bit ridiculous are very true, we love IC engines because we are familiar with them and they make noises, heat and vibrate, they would never have been invented had battery storage been up to the job in the early days of motoring, nobody would have thought, hang on, we need a machine that burns distilled dead things in a complicated, noisy, hot and inefficient mechanical ballet with parts occupying the same space every 1000 th of a second that collide if it goes wrong.
We have an affinity with IC engines, we are stuck with that, like the old bloke in the pub rattling on about long dead bands we have no interest in, people in the future wotn have grown up with V8's and all that, they might struggle to see past the noisy and smelly aspect.
We need to separate what is good for transport, society and humanity from what we prefer, or what works for us, I am pretty objective and realise I have a choice, at some point in my lifespan an EV of some description in inevitable but my past dictates a desire for engines, but someone born today, when they are 48, probably wont give a toss.
Cars usurped horses as transport, I am sure some bemoaned that, cars dont have as much soul or something, well guess they dont as a living breathing creature but I dont want my transport to kick me in the b
ks if I dont give it a sugar lump, and consumers wont want old fashioned IC engines int he future.Things change, we only last so long, we get replaced, get used to it and enjoy it, still plenty of time to enjoy IC engined cars, and perhaps reap the benefits, if it works for you, of the EV, you may actually like it, most owners seem to, just keep an open mind.
gazza285 said:
Can you add a 600 mile charge in the time it takes to fill a diesel tank?
And often do you need 600 miles of range?I use our EV for the all the family duties, nursery run, commute, weekend trip.
My commute to work today was actually quite good interms of traffic, spent nearly an hour in the car and went for a total distance of 12.5 miles. Judging by the amount of traffic I encounter daily ALOT of people use their cars in the same way.
Am so unbothered by range I charge our EV to only 75% daily, and can count on one hand the number of days I get home with less than 30% charge left last winter. Queuing up at petrol stations in current weather, and getting into a freezing cold car in the morning are things I 100% don't miss.
On really long runs absolute range does matter, but thats why we'll be keeping one combustion car on the drive. However interms of actual mileage covered the EV is fine for 99% of our use. Even long trips to Europe is fine as long as your time constrained by work.
There is a small group of people whom I think EVs woudlnt work for, like those needing do 200 miles+ a day with a strict schedule they need to stick to. But even those people will be fine with a Kona/Long range Model 3/100kWh S .
Edited by gangzoom on Friday 7th December 19:44
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