RE: Litchfield Alpine A110: PH Trade-Off!
Discussion
Driver101 said:
It's double the price of the Audi RS3 or BMW 140i.
How do often do tuners cover failures?
It'd be interesting to see how often a failure happens. It sounds as if too often customers go back to dealers and hope the remap isn't found.
Well I guess that’s the first thing anyone would do and when Alpine say no you go to Litchfield and get them to cough up. How do often do tuners cover failures?
It'd be interesting to see how often a failure happens. It sounds as if too often customers go back to dealers and hope the remap isn't found.
andyj007 said:
and lets not forget that exige will still be worth exactly the same price in 5 years time where the apline will have lost 25k. so basically buy the exige now & in fiveyears time you get a free alpine a110, or perhaps one for 5k additional.. then you got two cars for the price of 48k alpine.. whats not to love
You wouldn't like to look up current secondhand prices of near new exiges and A110? Probably not. Neither you nor I know what residuals of either car will be in 5 years time - so why make such silly assersions?bcr5784 said:
andyj007 said:
and lets not forget that exige will still be worth exactly the same price in 5 years time where the apline will have lost 25k. so basically buy the exige now & in fiveyears time you get a free alpine a110, or perhaps one for 5k additional.. then you got two cars for the price of 48k alpine.. whats not to love
You wouldn't like to look up current secondhand prices of near new exiges and A110? Probably not. Neither you nor I know what residuals of either car will be in 5 years time - so why make such silly assersions?The Alpine is overpriced by any measure. Owners may be offended about the constant mentioning of depreciation "nobody knows" etc, but that is bulls
t. There's a whole business dedicated to forecasting residuals. In either case his point stands, any of the other used options will lose far less cash than a new Alpine, the title of the article is "what else could you get for half the cost!" Even new vs new the forecast residuals on the Alpine are poor compared to it's competition. "But we don't know". Well, maybe not but plenty who do this for a living have made an educated guess. Look at the PCPs for example, the GFVs are way down.If you want to drop 50 large on a new sports car then go ahead, but it's undoubtedly going to lose more than the other options in the article, the Litchfield Alpine is not a Porsche GT3, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise.
John.
Miserablegit said:
just ignore John the troll.
joined 5 minues ago -five posts of crap about the alpine and one post about how he found the Grenfell bonfire funny. Presume he's just got out after a stretch or he's 10.
A110 owner? None of this is personal, we are focusing on the car so play the 'ball' not the man, but I'll presume you have no sensible response.joined 5 minues ago -five posts of crap about the alpine and one post about how he found the Grenfell bonfire funny. Presume he's just got out after a stretch or he's 10.
john41901 said:
Is very relevant as the article is comparing what else you could buy- for half the cost.
The Alpine is overpriced by any measure. Owners may be offended about the constant mentioning of depreciation "nobody knows" etc, but that is bullst. There's a whole business dedicated to forecasting residuals. In either case his point stands, any of the other used options will lose far less cash than a new Alpine, the title of the article is "what else could you get for half the cost!" Even new vs new the forecast residuals on the Alpine are poor compared to it's competition. "But we don't know". Well, maybe not but plenty who do this for a living have made an educated guess. Look at the PCPs for example, the GFVs are way down.
If you want to drop 50 large on a new sports car then go ahead, but it's undoubtedly going to lose more than the other options in the article, the Litchfield Alpine is not a Porsche GT3, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise.
John.
We're not offended -we are just bored of the same bullsThe Alpine is overpriced by any measure. Owners may be offended about the constant mentioning of depreciation "nobody knows" etc, but that is bulls
t. There's a whole business dedicated to forecasting residuals. In either case his point stands, any of the other used options will lose far less cash than a new Alpine, the title of the article is "what else could you get for half the cost!" Even new vs new the forecast residuals on the Alpine are poor compared to it's competition. "But we don't know". Well, maybe not but plenty who do this for a living have made an educated guess. Look at the PCPs for example, the GFVs are way down.If you want to drop 50 large on a new sports car then go ahead, but it's undoubtedly going to lose more than the other options in the article, the Litchfield Alpine is not a Porsche GT3, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise.
John.
t being wheeled out when it has been disproven. Those of us who purchased one didn't worry about residuals so thanks for your concern on our behalf but it's not needed; really, it isn't."overpriced by any measure" - so you've built a bespoke sportscar for less?? This is an aluminium 2 seater -what measure are you using? Even Porsche, with their volume, make their caysters out of steel.
The businesses forecasting residuals are volume players. We've already discredited the value of "Fleet Turd Monthly" but did you miss that?
They know nothing about a niche market. They can't get their hands on a car anyway so an expensive PCP is the only way they can get into the market and all the finance companies are keen to have an Alpine in the search function.
As for, "any of the other used options will lose far less cash than a new Alpine" - so what. Buy one of those and enjoy it.
This is meant to be a site for car fans not mumsnet / What car ffs.
Edited by Miserablegit on Monday 10th December 15:22
john41901 said:
Is very relevant as the article is comparing what else you could buy- for half the cost.
The Alpine is overpriced by any measure. Owners may be offended about the constant mentioning of depreciation "nobody knows" etc, but that is bullst. There's a whole business dedicated to forecasting residuals. In either case his point stands, any of the other used options will lose far less cash than a new Alpine, the title of the article is "what else could you get for half the cost!" Even new vs new the forecast residuals on the Alpine are poor compared to it's competition. "But we don't know". Well, maybe not but plenty who do this for a living have made an educated guess. Look at the PCPs for example, the GFVs are way down.
If you want to drop 50 large on a new sports car then go ahead, but it's undoubtedly going to lose more than the other options in the article, the Litchfield Alpine is not a Porsche GT3, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise.
John.
How PCP for a vehicle is priced and how cars depreciate are two different things and depends what type of a manufacturer you are. It is much easier to price the GFV for volume guys who supply financing to dealers as you have millions of reference points. For niche, new and low volume cars it is significantly more difficult and companies financing it will just low-ball the GFV as they don't really know. There are other factors as well but I'm sure there's enough of that discussed in other areas of the forum and it isn't rocket science. As an example though, if you stuck a car like a Cayman GTS/GT4 into a valuation site / guide, the price comes out significantly lower than what you would expect looking the approved site. This is partly the result of the guides generating pricing off volume models (i.e. it will often think the same depreciation curve for a Cayman S / 911s will apply to a GTS/GT4/GT3 and dealer mark up (which is significantly higher for certain brands) as well as other things.The Alpine is overpriced by any measure. Owners may be offended about the constant mentioning of depreciation "nobody knows" etc, but that is bulls
t. There's a whole business dedicated to forecasting residuals. In either case his point stands, any of the other used options will lose far less cash than a new Alpine, the title of the article is "what else could you get for half the cost!" Even new vs new the forecast residuals on the Alpine are poor compared to it's competition. "But we don't know". Well, maybe not but plenty who do this for a living have made an educated guess. Look at the PCPs for example, the GFVs are way down.If you want to drop 50 large on a new sports car then go ahead, but it's undoubtedly going to lose more than the other options in the article, the Litchfield Alpine is not a Porsche GT3, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise.
John.
You are still more than welcome to guess I suppose but I'd personally prefer it if people weren't so obnoxious on here.
Edited by Prestonese on Monday 10th December 11:14
Miserablegit said:
john41901 said:
Is very relevant as the article is comparing what else you could buy- for half the cost.
The Alpine is overpriced by any measure. Owners may be offended about the constant mentioning of depreciation "nobody knows" etc, but that is bullst. There's a whole business dedicated to forecasting residuals. In either case his point stands, any of the other used options will lose far less cash than a new Alpine, the title of the article is "what else could you get for half the cost!" Even new vs new the forecast residuals on the Alpine are poor compared to it's competition. "But we don't know". Well, maybe not but plenty who do this for a living have made an educated guess. Look at the PCPs for example, the GFVs are way down.
If you want to drop 50 large on a new sports car then go ahead, but it's undoubtedly going to lose more than the other options in the article, the Litchfield Alpine is not a Porsche GT3, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise.
John.
We're not offended -we are just bored of the same bullsThe Alpine is overpriced by any measure. Owners may be offended about the constant mentioning of depreciation "nobody knows" etc, but that is bulls
t. There's a whole business dedicated to forecasting residuals. In either case his point stands, any of the other used options will lose far less cash than a new Alpine, the title of the article is "what else could you get for half the cost!" Even new vs new the forecast residuals on the Alpine are poor compared to it's competition. "But we don't know". Well, maybe not but plenty who do this for a living have made an educated guess. Look at the PCPs for example, the GFVs are way down.If you want to drop 50 large on a new sports car then go ahead, but it's undoubtedly going to lose more than the other options in the article, the Litchfield Alpine is not a Porsche GT3, no matter how much you try to pretend otherwise.
John.
t being wheeled out when imo it has been disproven. Miserablegit said:
Those of us who purchased one didn't worry about residuals so thanks for your concern on our behalf but it's not needed; really, it isn't.
Evidently.Miserablegit said:
"overpriced by any measure" - so you've built a bespoke sportscar for less?? This is an aluminium 2 seater -what measure are you using? Even Porsche, with their volume, make their caysters out of steel.
The businesses forecasting residuals are volume players. imo We've already discredited the value of "Fleet Turd Monthly" but did you miss that?
As for, "any of the other used options will lose far less cash than a new Alpine" - so what. Buy one of those and enjoy it.
This is meant to be a site for car fans not mumsnet / autocar ffs.
In terms of forecasts, your argument appears to be based on if you don't like something it must be inaccurate or rubbish because it is 'niche'. Finance schemes and PCP GFVs must be inaccurate as well. Reality is this is an economic product like any other, it's not a halo model, and its depreciation curve will be no different. The businesses forecasting residuals are volume players. imo We've already discredited the value of "Fleet Turd Monthly" but did you miss that?
As for, "any of the other used options will lose far less cash than a new Alpine" - so what. Buy one of those and enjoy it.
This is meant to be a site for car fans not mumsnet / autocar ffs.
The real problem they've got, not counting 'badge' and looks, which are subjective, is that the car is trying to compete with established players, and at the wrong price point. It is a stretch by anyone's estimation, at the very least I don't believe it is their aim to make losses, but they surely still need to make enough to break even.
To me, bring this out at ~35k, through the Renault network, and it would sell pretty well. Now, once things settle after the launch, these inflated prices will be rapidly corrected in the market, despite the attempt to hold this off through limited supply. In the longer term the price is only going to go one way. And that is down, the only question is how fast that happens.
The market in five years' time is indeed anyone's guess. But I'd certainly wager an established brand will hold up more strongly than a French one, and certainly in the UK.
I'll ignore the other parts about mumsnet etc since clearly you are emotionally invested in this and your whole straw-man argument rests predominantly on rubbishing facts which you don't like. Enjoy your car.
If it’s at the “wrong price point” then basic market economics will sort that out through lack of demand leading to discounting. I don’t see any discounts and I see a full order book for the next 12 months. How anyone on this site who doesn’t work for Renault in a very senior finance position can state categorically its at the wrong price point and then suggest a price is totally ludicrous.
craigjm said:
If it’s at the “wrong price point” then basic market economics will sort that out through lack of demand leading to discounting. I don’t see any discounts and I see a full order book for the next 12 months. How anyone on this site who doesn’t work for Renault in a very senior finance position can state categorically its at the wrong price point and then suggest a price is totally ludicrous.
Limited supply via recent launch is probably more of a factor.Because the French are so good at free market economics, aren't they... They'll just wait for another state bail out.
This is hilarious with people still saying it's overpriced because it isn't £35k.
I wanted a new ferrari V12 for £53k but they've priced them a little bit above that...
30-35k is fast, volume hot-hatch territory /BRZ/GT86
and you think the Alpine should be at the same price point? Straw man indeed
I wanted a new ferrari V12 for £53k but they've priced them a little bit above that...
30-35k is fast, volume hot-hatch territory /BRZ/GT86
and you think the Alpine should be at the same price point? Straw man indeed
Lexington59 said:
craigjm said:
If it’s at the “wrong price point” then basic market economics will sort that out through lack of demand leading to discounting. I don’t see any discounts and I see a full order book for the next 12 months. How anyone on this site who doesn’t work for Renault in a very senior finance position can state categorically its at the wrong price point and then suggest a price is totally ludicrous.
Limited supply via recent launch is probably more of a factor.Because the French are so good at free market economics, aren't they... They'll just wait for another state bail out.
Various dafties said exactly the same thing when the Alfa 4C came out, "it will depreciate like a brick", "I will buy one for half price in a couple of years" etc etc and they where wrong. The launch edition 4C cost around £50,000.00 and the cheapest one available on here is up for a tad under £40,000.00 so it has lost 25% in 4 years which is pretty good.
I see no reason why the Alpine should be much different.
I see no reason why the Alpine should be much different.
Even at 50k, I don't think Alpine are making a profit on these cars given the development costs but as a marketing exercise to relaunch the brand, it has probably been a success.
I'm frustrated that people talk about the price every time when the car comes into conversation. As miserbalgit says, it's only the wrong price point if you don't want to pay 50k for a bespoke aluminium bodied sports car with unique driving dynamics. There are plenty of buyers who thinks it is at the right price point and have put their money where it matters.
Back on topic, for half the price of an Alpine, there are choices but I still suspect the most relevant one would be a GT86 with some tasteful mods - you will keep the practicality and coupe looks whilst having a bit of fun. It can also be used as a daily like the Alpine (by the way, other than maybe the storage point, it is a more usable daily than the Cayman / Boxster and probably also the MX5). The 86 didn't sell loads in this country as well so there is still some novelty factor to it though you still carry a bit more heft than the Alpine.
Going stock though might be a bit of a trickier exercise and probably one where the Boxster / Cayman would get the thumbs up. That said, I'm pretty sure there is a 968 Clubsport or 944 2S you can get your hands on for about 25-30k. That would be a good alternative, rare and has strong sporty / daily drive credentials. A Z4M coupe for around the same price can be had but it is few weight categories higher than all the cars mentioned above.
To me though, that is a sign of how niche all these cars are, especially in light of what has been produced in the last 10-15 years.
I'm frustrated that people talk about the price every time when the car comes into conversation. As miserbalgit says, it's only the wrong price point if you don't want to pay 50k for a bespoke aluminium bodied sports car with unique driving dynamics. There are plenty of buyers who thinks it is at the right price point and have put their money where it matters.
Back on topic, for half the price of an Alpine, there are choices but I still suspect the most relevant one would be a GT86 with some tasteful mods - you will keep the practicality and coupe looks whilst having a bit of fun. It can also be used as a daily like the Alpine (by the way, other than maybe the storage point, it is a more usable daily than the Cayman / Boxster and probably also the MX5). The 86 didn't sell loads in this country as well so there is still some novelty factor to it though you still carry a bit more heft than the Alpine.
Going stock though might be a bit of a trickier exercise and probably one where the Boxster / Cayman would get the thumbs up. That said, I'm pretty sure there is a 968 Clubsport or 944 2S you can get your hands on for about 25-30k. That would be a good alternative, rare and has strong sporty / daily drive credentials. A Z4M coupe for around the same price can be had but it is few weight categories higher than all the cars mentioned above.
To me though, that is a sign of how niche all these cars are, especially in light of what has been produced in the last 10-15 years.
The 4c is probably not the best example of a commercially successful product.
But getting beyond the petty bickering, bringing anything into this sector is a brave move. SUVs, electric cars, and the fact most of these 'enthusiasts' talk a lot but actually end up buying anything else because in reality they weigh 15 stone, earn £40k a year, and have two kids & a dog.
I wish them well, it is an interesting car, and the Litchfield upgrade does at least improve the stats.
But getting beyond the petty bickering, bringing anything into this sector is a brave move. SUVs, electric cars, and the fact most of these 'enthusiasts' talk a lot but actually end up buying anything else because in reality they weigh 15 stone, earn £40k a year, and have two kids & a dog.
I wish them well, it is an interesting car, and the Litchfield upgrade does at least improve the stats.
Lexington59 said:
The 4c is probably not the best example of a commercially successful product.
But getting beyond the petty bickering, bringing anything into this sector is a brave move. SUVs, electric cars, and the fact most of these 'enthusiasts' talk a lot but actually end up buying anything else because in reality they weigh 15 stone, earn £40k a year, and have two kids & a dog.
I wish them well, it is an interesting car, and the Litchfield upgrade does at least improve the stats.
What does being 15 stone have to do with it?But getting beyond the petty bickering, bringing anything into this sector is a brave move. SUVs, electric cars, and the fact most of these 'enthusiasts' talk a lot but actually end up buying anything else because in reality they weigh 15 stone, earn £40k a year, and have two kids & a dog.
I wish them well, it is an interesting car, and the Litchfield upgrade does at least improve the stats.
I don't give much time to comparisons between a new car and a 10 years old because its quite obvious the 10 year old will have done the majority of its depreciation and will therefore suffer less going forward.
I haven't actually seen any of the facts all the naysayers go on about, high PCP Rates, low GFV values etc etc where is all the evidence.
No one says a Golf R has low depreciation because the PCP and Lease rates were low it was because there was hidden manufacturer support for the products just as they are now doing with the S3 and S4.
A car like the Alpine or 4C needs to be judged over a longer timeframe as will be seen in the future, cars like the 4C will be really sought after by a niche following, they are not mass market cars and you cannot use the same criteria for calculating depreciation.
Many of us Alpine buyers have bought for the long term, not just a 3 year PCP deal. I have bought mine to keep as i very much doubt that anything remotely comparable to drive will be being developed. It's a one off type of car, there will be few more like it before all cars are electric, and I have no doubt that there will be a following for that type of driving experience.
I doubt many realise how much it costs to develop a low volume sports car with an Aluminium body and then expect it to be priced the same an Audi (Golf) TT which are knocked out in the tens of thousands even the Cayman is a mass produced car and thats a similar price. The closest comparisons is probably the 4c after some initial heavy depreciation the cars are now starting to appreciate. And that is a car which was never commercially successful. By comparison the Alpine has sold 140 already and has a order book of 12 months - how can that indicates its so over-priced.
Its a shame that for a car that is so refreshingly apt that some just don't get it. Never mind there are plenty that do!
I haven't actually seen any of the facts all the naysayers go on about, high PCP Rates, low GFV values etc etc where is all the evidence.
No one says a Golf R has low depreciation because the PCP and Lease rates were low it was because there was hidden manufacturer support for the products just as they are now doing with the S3 and S4.
A car like the Alpine or 4C needs to be judged over a longer timeframe as will be seen in the future, cars like the 4C will be really sought after by a niche following, they are not mass market cars and you cannot use the same criteria for calculating depreciation.
Many of us Alpine buyers have bought for the long term, not just a 3 year PCP deal. I have bought mine to keep as i very much doubt that anything remotely comparable to drive will be being developed. It's a one off type of car, there will be few more like it before all cars are electric, and I have no doubt that there will be a following for that type of driving experience.
I doubt many realise how much it costs to develop a low volume sports car with an Aluminium body and then expect it to be priced the same an Audi (Golf) TT which are knocked out in the tens of thousands even the Cayman is a mass produced car and thats a similar price. The closest comparisons is probably the 4c after some initial heavy depreciation the cars are now starting to appreciate. And that is a car which was never commercially successful. By comparison the Alpine has sold 140 already and has a order book of 12 months - how can that indicates its so over-priced.
Its a shame that for a car that is so refreshingly apt that some just don't get it. Never mind there are plenty that do!
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